Some Americans are supporting their troops, and they should be ashamed

Just want to throw my 2 cents in here. If Chinese troops land on Dayton Beach tomorrow attempting an invasion of America? I will drive my ass to Florida with my rifle and rain hell down upon them. Iraqis? They've YET to attack my country, so I'll give em a pass. HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND?

reply to post by Zenagain


All of our wars in the past century have all been fought on foreign soil. Only idiots were the japs. Ur ignorant.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Well said. It relates to any country.

Also, it is disgusting to see letting for example thousands of children aged 6-12 being abducted and then trained to kill by intimidating them by killing other children in front of them. Western and Northern countries are letting this and other sick things happen in the world and at the same time spending billions of $$$ in occupying oil rich counties.

How long will it take for people to raise against injustice to the humanity?

Do not even reply if you think I sound naive - I know it

If we dont go to them, then they will come for us.



I support our troops but that does not mean i support the cause for the war, i support the troops in there bravery and acceptance and i support the troops for the fact that they have to do there job, when called upon so.

Originally posted by Zenagain
Just want to throw my 2 cents in here. If Chinese troops land on Dayton Beach tomorrow attempting an invasion of America? I will drive my ass to Florida with my rifle and rain hell down upon them. Iraqis? They've YET to attack my country, so I'll give em a pass. HOW HARD IS THIS TO UNDERSTAND?

So you would be an insurgent

And look for the iraq war how much of a bad rep the media gives them

insurgents are just people trying to stop invaders

People are still saying in this thread that those soldiers are fighting for our freedom............in another country while our crimes increases and we lose freedom everyday.

So I will repaste a statement i made in this thread so there's no confusion.

Freedom given by our troops?

Understand I don't hate the troops, i feel bad for them. But they are all over the world making american sentiment worse and causing more terroism. It's called blowback.

But there's something else other than blowback, which is blowback's blowback.

More troops all over = more hate towards america = less rights for america.

Need I remind you of the FISA act?
Patriot Act

Think about it, they don't give us freedom, they help take it away.

as to the title of this thread...im a bit offended. i was a soldier for 12 years. i am currently married to a soldier. i feel no shame for either my service OR for my support of my wife.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Any informed and half-smart person would realize that there is no honor in for fighting for such a cause.

And the amount of people joining the army is a good measure of how many americans still think they are on the good side.

These people need to be educated, they need to be informed.

< snip >

These ppl are like sheep in the matrix, they should be told to fight within and not without

i also take exception to the implication that we are stupid/ignorant/confused and in need of an education to see things your way.

you may not agree with the war. thats your right
you can say whatever you want about our govt, our military and our corporate infrastructure. thats your right as well
you can feel that yours is the only opinion that matters. again, thats your right.
you can protest, you can blog, and you can make forum posts espousing your ideas. yet another right you have.

but whether or not you feel this current war is doing anything positive for your personal freedoms just remember one thing: all the rights i listed above have been yours since birth. they are what one might call "god given" if you are a believer. however they were secured for you and yours originally by men willing to do violence on your behalf. they are secured for you this day by men and women ready to do violence on your behalf.

so, keep on keepin on, its your right. but you should also remember one last thing. a soldier doesnt make foreign policy, he/she just carries it out.

so point the finger where it belongs, not at the men and women who to this day stand ready to do violence on YOUR behalf. even if you dont think thats what they're doing today, they just might be doing it next week.

The last war to be fought to protect the freedoms of Americans was the Civil War... and the side of states rights lost (slavery back then was already an outdated concept that was on it's way out regardless, but that is what has been touted to make those state rights seem fickle).

WWI- The sinking of the Lusitania was a false flag operation to get the U.S. involved. Why?... to make corporate America fatter

WW2- First, We starved and embargoed the Japanese to the point of no options. Why? same reason as above. Secondly, John Rockefeller's (American) company Standard Oil held the patent to fuel additives used in the German warplanes... etc., etc...

Korea- Tell me how this had anything to do with our freedoms?!?

Vietnam- Everyone knows that the Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag operation... why? to make the military industrial complex and corporate America fatter? In fact, Infantry men at the time were not allowed to destroy anti aircraft batteries being built for the North Viet army until completed. Why? These were being bought from American companies who would not receive payment till the work was completed.

Etc.... Etc.

I am tired of hearing people say that what the soldiers are fighting for is my freedom. They ARE NOT fighting for my freedoms. In fact, they are actually fighting to remove my freedoms. See, as corporate America keeps getting fatter the little guys lose out. No more small businesses... no more choice. You see it everywhere you go... here or abroad. Best Buys, Home Depots, Walmarts, etc. etc. are all destroying any piece of Americana that we had. Not to mention the fear... THEY'RE GONNA GET US!!!... I am still waiting for that big jetliner to crash into my home. Then you have to consider that these same companies control the banks. So all of your money, homes, financial choices are all wrapped up in this big machine. They own you, and all they want is obediant workers.

I never asked to be a citizen of this country, and I have travelled enough to know that it is not the bees knees people try to make it out to be. I do believe however that many a man died BELIEVING that they were defending all of our freedoms. I just don't believe that in this day and age that people are so naive to think that what the soldiers are fighting for is OUR rights. What they ae actually fighting for is the rights of the rich to continue to financially enslave the world... think about it. Propaganda has a way of manipulating people.

Originally posted by Damocles
i also take exception to the implication that we are stupid/ignorant/confused and in need of an education to see things your way.

I never used the word stupid
the offensiveness that you describe ain't coming from this thread friend

Originally posted by Damocles
but whether or not you feel this current war is doing anything positive for your personal freedoms just remember one thing: all the rights i listed above have been yours since birth. they are what one might call "god given" if you are a believer. however they were secured for you and yours originally by men willing to do violence on your behalf. they are secured for you this day by men and women ready to do violence on your behalf.

Ok now you are being slightly offensive sir
please refrain from saying that these soldiers are murdering on my behalf
this war wasn't approved by congress, it is an illegal war
it's bankrupting the country and so immoral beyond explanation

they are NOT fighting on my behalf, despite some good men over there thinking they do.

Secondly you speak of my rights
It's not patriotic to the point of being blind my friend
it's not only about my rights, what about their rights
what about the rights of iraqis to be able to go buy bread without being shot.

Ant-War activists, they are true heroes
they are true patriots alarmed by their beloved country's corruption

Originally posted by Damocles
so, keep on keepin on, its your right. but you should also remember one last thing. a soldier doesnt make foreign policy, he/she just carries it out.

I agree
But rather than blind patriotism shouldn't they read it before enlisting?
Shouldn't they read what they are really risking their lives for?

Nazis weren't bad people, they just had a bad leader?
That's it?

Originally posted by Damocles
so point the finger where it belongs, not at the men and women who to this day stand ready to do violence on YOUR behalf. even if you dont think thats what they're doing today, they just might be doing it next week.

i am pointing the finger at the source of economic bankruptcy
i am pointing the finger at an illegal and a so immoral war
i am pointing the finger a a govt. hiring racist, sadistic & overpaid mercenaries like blackwater
I point the finger at secret prisons incarcerating people judged to have no rights
I point the finger at secret haliburton prison camps all over the u.s.

Doesn't that resemble Nazi germany a little too much buddy?

Now tell me, with these facts about your country, what would a real patriot do?

Answer me that, after thinking of these facts what would a real patriot do?

reply to post by Damocles


As I mentioned on the thread very similarly titled as this one, I'm waiting to hear a specific example of how ANY American military action since WW2 has had any bearing on any AMERICAN'S freedom. Freedom is won, or any more, by the "pen," or simply by living, doing, CREATING (instead of destroying, what a concept); not the "sword." Can anyone cite a concrete, real example of military-won freedoms for Americans since WW2? Didn't think so... My god, this country is overflowing with the biggest brainwashed jingoists in human history! George Orwell himself couldn't have imagined this crap!

Substantiate your rhetoric (to whom it applies) if you can! It's not that I'm CONVINCED there's no justification for the blind nationalism (not to be confused with real patriotism) happening today (in the similar vain of Nazi Germany), I'm just wanting clarity, substantiation... GRRR!!!

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I never used the word stupid
the offensiveness that you describe ain't coming from this thread friend

youre right, you never used the word "stupid", but lets look at what you did say shall we?:

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Any informed and half-smart person would realize...

which implies that anyone who doesnt "realize" is ill informed and half-smart. seems like a wordy way of saying stupid to me but i guess i read too much into it.

Ok now you are being slightly offensive sir
please refrain from saying that these soldiers are murdering on my behalf

ok see, first of all, i didnt mention murder anywhere...nor did i state that the war in iraq was for anyones freedoms. i said that there were men and women ready to do violence on your behalf and protect your freedoms. there are still any number of hypothetical threats to the US and if one of those threats shows up on our shores i bet you'll be glad that they didnt all throw down their arms and quit the military.

but i didnt actually type that out, i gave people the benefit of the doubt when i figured that when i didnt mention iraq in my post, that i might not be talking about iraq. my bad. i guess by now i should know better than giving people the benefit of the doubt.

this war wasn't approved by congress, it is an illegal war
it's bankrupting the country and so immoral beyond explanation

interesting. then who approved the funding? and when did they vote to reverse the vote that DID approve the war?

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions.

Hours earlier, the House approved an identical resolution, 296-133.

that was oct 11, 2002 link

they are NOT fighting on my behalf, despite some good men over there thinking they do.

and i never used the current war as an example. you assumed.

Secondly you speak of my rights
It's not patriotic to the point of being blind my friend

never said it was. hell i feel a true patriot is someone who DOES question their government just as much as a soldier. thats what makes a society great, that we have soldiers to secure our rights and people willing to excersise those rights.

it's not only about my rights, what about their rights
what about the rights of iraqis to be able to go buy bread without being shot.

well sorry but we ran out of instant democracy in a can just add water. stability takes some time, its not a quick process. and if the iraqis are scared to go buy bread, maybe they should look within, theres way more violence against iraqi's caused BY iraqis than there is by us soldiers. And if it were to turn out that most of the violence IS caused by us soldiers then the iraqis need to step up, take responsibility for their own security and tell us that our services are no longer required. but as it stands right now, we broke their country and so its our responsibility to help them fix it. the reasons we went to war are irrelevant in that regard. thats yesterday, today their country is messed up, we messed it up, we need to help clean it up.

Ant-War activists, they are true heroes
they are true patriots alarmed by their beloved country's corruption

not sure id say "hero" but i would call him/her a good american. excersise those rights...hell yeah. im all for it. but again, direct animosity where it belongs.

But rather than blind patriotism shouldn't they read it before enlisting?
Shouldn't they read what they are really risking their lives for?

you do know, there is more of a reason for the military than JUST the war in iraq right? i mean, you DO know that right?

Nazis weren't bad people, they just had a bad leader?
That's it?

ya know, i dont know you but despite the fact i disagree with you, your posts are well thought out and presented and you seem like a sharp person...but having said that i have to say that not only was that quote uncalled for and stupid, its a bit beneath you. do we really need to stoop so low in order to discuss our, in this case difference of, opinions?

c'mon, you can do better than that. if not then i overestimated you.

anyway this is all i really have to say on the matter.

im still not ashamed of the years i served and im still not ashamed to be married to a soldier. if youre ashamed of us then so be it.

that is your right, and i WOULD die to defend that right.

Originally posted by Lightworth
I'm waiting to hear a specific example of how ANY American military action since WW2 has had any bearing on any AMERICAN'S freedom.

There are many such examples
But not for winning freedom but rather losing

Blowback created the excuse for FISA and for the patriot act.

Bush also secretly passed a bill disallowing anti-iraq-war protests.
Another loss of freedom, there's a video on youtube with elderly people getting arrested in the park for being anti-war.

So yes, we are losing a hell of alot of freedoms because of this war.


Now, not responding to you but to the soldier in this thread
please watch this video with a constitutional lawyer sayind:
"I'd never thought I would say this, but I think it might in fact be time for the United States to be held internationally to a tribunal. I never thought in my lifetime I would say that."

reply to post by Lightworth


ya know, you make an EXCELLENT point. believe it or not i agree with you.

however, having said that, allow me to say this:

the military does represent the "sword" vs the mighty pen, which as you pointed out has been the most frequently and appropriatly used weapon since WW2. i would say that the mere presence of the sword has allowed the pen to be as effective as it has been for the last half century or so. call it a "visual deterrent". isnt it possible that the very reason we have NOT had to fight for our sovereignty on our own soil is because we have had such an effective "sword" strapped to our waist and ready to come out should the need occur?

spose the cold war would have gone the way it did had we a weak military?

its an academic question though, theres no way to prove or refute it realistically.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
just to chime in here....


....someone who does not support our troops likely does not deserve any of the freedoms that they are given by our troops.

I think you have over intellectualized this. Honestly. Why not ask some soldiers if THEY think they are doing good work. Taking pity on them for their ignorance smacks of elitism and snobbery.

Do i want to be in a war zone? No. I don't. But thank God that there are those who do. Just like I can't sew. Thank God someone can sew for me.

This is the role of society. Each with its own purpose.

Our nation was not founded so that there could be one off revolutions by the odd smattering of individuals. If we want a revolt, it must be done politically.

I know people who would claw your eyes out over this thread. People who have lost sons in Iraq. You are walking a VERY thin line, and I have to squint REAL hard to not see it as sedition.

Superbly worded! The first paragraph is now my tagline. You've KO'd the OP with this post in my opinion.

Originally posted by Damocles
ok see, first of all, i didnt mention murder anywhere...nor did i state that the war in iraq was for anyones freedoms. i said that there were men and women ready to do violence on your behalf and protect your freedoms. there are still any number of hypothetical threats to the US and if one of those threats shows up on our shores i bet you'll be glad that they didnt all throw down their arms and quit the military.

No you didn't mention murder, but all current wars are murder nonetheless
I spoke of Iraq because it's the biggest current war

If you were to argue that all WWI and WWII soldiers were all heroes and patriots you would not hear one disagreement from me.

But of course we must speak of current events

Originally posted by Damocles
but i didnt actually type that out, i gave people the benefit of the doubt when i figured that when i didnt mention iraq in my post, that i might not be talking about iraq. my bad. i guess by now i should know better than giving people the benefit of the doubt.

It's not about that, it's just that if we are going to discuss current events then of course we will be talking about current events.

then who approved the funding? and when did they vote to reverse the vote that DID approve the war?

They approved funding after being lied to about WMDs and also Bush lying about EVERYTHING else.

I can't believe that any one could be so blind they that think that the sword is in way as powerful as the pen. The Bill of rights, and Constitution certainly weren't written with the sword. You can sit down with your lap top and convey and receive thoughts from people any where on the planet, and that wouldn't be possible with out written words. Communication is far more relevant and powerful than any weapon. Weapons are only used when people refuse to or give up on viable communication. Try and coordinate an artillery mission or close air support without communication. Try to brain wash a nation of people with out communication. I just don't understand the mentality or lack of that would allow people to have such beliefs.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
They approved funding after being lied to about WMDs and also Bush lying about EVERYTHING else.

ok, they were lied to, not going to argue that point as i dont necessarily disagree in principle.

however, they DID approve the war. H.J. Res 114 WAS passed by both the house and senate.

so, the war is not illegal in regards to our own rules of how things are done. you can argue that the action wasnt approved by the UN and therefore illegal in the global sense but the US congress DID authorize the war making this statement:

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

this war wasn't approved by congress, it is an illegal war
it's bankrupting the country and so immoral beyond explanation

wrong.

now the real question is this: why has congress done nothing more than TALK about using their power to end the war?


reply to post by hypervigilant


not sure i would say im the blind one here. you did actually READ my post yeah? where i said that the pen had been used more and more effectivly since ww2 than the military or "sword" has been right? you read the part where i said that i thought it was possible that the reason the pen was so effective is simply because the sword was there?

just wanted to make sure i was being clear, it seems that at times im not as articulate as i could be.

Watch this film about American solder going to Canada to avoid participation in this crime against humanity.
radicalfilms.co.uk...

reply to post by ModernAcademia


"They don't know better, that's the point of this thread"

I'm willing to wager a bet that the majority of the military are just as smart (if not smarter) as you seem to think you are.

Most join with a genuine desire to protect their country and the freedoms we hold so dear. Even your right to make the insulting comment above.

Most join hoping to gain skills and money for further education. I think I'm safe in saying that they don't join HOPING to go to war. You've got the usual handful that do join hoping to achieve that goal but, that's not the norm.

With that being said, they don't get to pick and choose where they're sent or what they'll do. I know my son didn't want to go to Iraq but he did because he's a soldier and he takes his orders from the government and to go against the grain would result in a court-martial.

Think before you speak (or type) because in most of our troop's hearts is the desire to support and protect us regardless of whether you support them. They know there are people like you who will always have something negative to say about them but they plod on in your defense, yes yours, because in their hearts and minds they believe in what they're doing which is protecting our country and people like you.

You don't have to support the govt. or the war to support our troops.

You might, one day, find yourself in need of theirsupport.

On behalf of my son, you're welcome.

this is a comment by soldiermom:

I'm willing to wager a bet that the majority of the military are just as smart (if not smarter) as you seem to think you are.

YOU DON'T GET IT. You have NO IDEA what's going on. You are a slave of the petroleum & heroin & money laundering big businessmen WHO ARE FASCISTS NOT BELIEVING IN DEMOCRACY, but in the Illuminati and Reich and NWO slavery and genocide of (wo)mankind. Your robotics impress noone but your idolatry of BUSH the murderer.

The military is ruled by civilians. The Secretaries of the military branches are civilian businessmen --representatives of the Fed, YOUR MASTER. You are a wage-slave. YOU are uneducated. YOUR son has been uneducated BECAUSE OF YOU and YOUR ignorance.

If you really care about his country, you will get educated and stop being a slave and robot.

There's nothing wrong with being patriotic, except when your patriotism is satanic and based on capitalism, such as your idolatry and non-judaic-non-christian-non-muslim satanic mind-slave robotic antics.

YOU don't know what love is or you wouldn't support genocide. And you wouldn't support the oil companies and the phony peak oil scam as YOUR GOD.

No one here wishes harm for you or your son. You are simply serving the devil in your ignorance -- make no mistake about it.

Grow up. Take some responsibility.

[edit on 14-7-2008 by counterterrorist]