To Move or Not to Move...

reply to post by TheRedneck

Oh, and I have to remind you that self-reliance and compassion are not polar opposites; they can exist. I will typically truy to help another person much more if I see they are trying to do their best without begging.

Best of luck to you.

Absolutely, well said.

and best luck to you!

Redneck is right, I'm afraid- the property is lost without moolah ( now ).
It's possible that in the confusion, you could stay there- if the timing's perfectly right, but- you had better not do this and here's why:
the situation you describe would likely lead to all sorts of dangerous crises; I've read that there is only a few days' worth of food in stock at any given time...
Both S.Cal and Las Vegas could become like a horrer movie real quick !
At leaast from Vegas, there is an easier escape ( I suggest North ) maybe back into Cali ( Bishop or someplace like that ).
The scenario of ' collapse ' is far more dangerous than a bank run or even a depression...
We don' t live on farms anymore; we don't even know how to be efficient with ( or even recognize ) resources.
Casualties immediately following a ' crash ' would likely be horrific.
Get out of there right now- find a job when you get there.

I would seriously question anyone who is "running for the hills" due to the predicted economic doom of people on an anonymous message board. Especially when the track record of such people has shown that they regularly predict economic apocalypse every year, as you can see in the board archives.

Obviously, you didn't mean this in a more rational "should I move to a lower cost of living area," since this is the survival board.

If we could, we'd move to the four corners area. From what I've been reading, it's the best place to be when all heck breaks loose.

To answer your question - MOVE.

Good luck.

Originally posted by TheRedneck

Should a bank fail, the Feds will no doubt seize the assets of the bank. That is not the same as seizing your home; they take the mortgage for themselves and try to service it themselves or sell it off to another bank. All you have to worry about is the address on the payments. Should a bank fail without such a takeover (improbable in the long term, more possible later on), the house is yours. It's like you co-owned a house with someone else, and they died; if they had no heirs, you keep the house (although expect a few legal challenges).

TheRedneck

That is interesting. With all these banks and mortgage lenders and backers going down the tubes, and the Government stepping in, what will happen when the government can no longer back the banks? Will people with existing home loans be free and clear? Who will keep track of the deads and paper work? Who will enforce payment if there is no entity to pay?

reply to post by ALightinDarkness

I would seriously question anyone who is "running for the hills"

I would question if they ran now. Though I would'nt downplay or under estimate what may be coming. At least what may be coming according the Yale professor of economics and others.

Obviously, you didn't mean this in a more rational "should I move to a lower cost of living area," since this is the survival board.

Obviously eh? Well if you read the OP, I don't believe there is anything irrational about it. I firstly, was asking if I should abandon a house that is in foreclosure if the banks that own the house fail. Second, I asked if Las Vegas is a good place to go because of its economy. I believe it would be a good place to go to look for a job.

If there is something you find irrational about that I would have to seriously question you...

reply to post by 38181

That is interesting. With all these banks and mortgage lenders and backers going down the tubes, and the Government stepping in, what will happen when the government can no longer back the banks? Will people with existing home loans be free and clear? Who will keep track of the deads and paper work? Who will enforce payment if there is no entity to pay?

Exactly. Thanks for the concise questions. This may be a very real situation in the near future.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
I would question if they ran now. Though I would'nt downplay or under estimate what may be coming. At least what may be coming according the Yale professor of economics and others.

Anyone running for the hills to escape a apocalypse predicted by users on an anonymous message board, at any time, is insanity. Especially, as I mentioned, ATS members have predicted utter economic doom every year since the board has been in existence (I looked in the archives to make sure). Given the 0% correct track record, I certainly wouldn't be making life decisions based on the board.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
Obviously eh? Well if you read the OP, I don't believe there is anything irrational about it.

Yes, obviously, since this was framed in a "where can I go to escape the economic apocalypse" - which is appropriate for a survival board - and not a "where would it make the best sense to move given my personal situation and cost of living circumstances - which would be a BTS thread.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
I firstly, was asking if I should abandon a house that is in foreclosure if the banks that own the house fail.

Asking a internet board where many people think Its The End Of The World As We Know It is obviously going to get you a "of course" response from most people. The reality is that a bank failure does not effect your obligations on a loan - the loan is sold to someone else.

Originally posted by abelievingskeptic
Second, I asked if Las Vegas is a good place to go because of its economy. I believe it would be a good place to go to look for a job.

How would anyone be able to answer that unless we have your resume? Obviously, from the "run for the hills" perspective, Las Vegas would be bad as would any large city in the event of the much hoped for economic apocolypse. Which is going to be the majority of responses your going to get.

You do have options when it comes to foreclosure on your house. Considering no bank can show you the note that you originally signed because that note was turned into a security and sold almost before the ink dried... they have no standing on asking you for any payment or foreclosing. Your signature made the money to purchase the house... no loan was made. There are ways to set off your mortgage with bonds also. Private message me and i'll give you more info.

Not sure if I would pick Vegas. Some people are under the impression that Vegas will stand up to the collapse... what strikes me as funny is that Vegas depends on MONEY to operate. If people are losing their homes and jobs all around Vegas... not too many people will be gambling and going to whorehouses. Just got done reading a long article about how it has already effected Vegas in huge ways. It can only get worse. And me, I would never move to someplace with a water shortage and where the land wasn't easy to sow.

I'm in Tennessee and feel for you and your family. All that's going on and some of what is going to still happen before the collapse hasn't effected life here in the hills as much as some parts of the country. Still, we are ready for it (105 acres with 2 spring fed stocked ponds, plenty of food and fuels). That is what is most important at this time. Wherever you are or decide to go... be ready for what might come. I would suggest a little farm area in the backwoods... doesn't have to be far from a town. Get some extra canned goods, ammo (can be used for bartering also), water.. prepare for the worst and hope for the best. If it blows over and nothing happens you have a nice home away from the hectic city and don't have to buy canned goods for a while. If the SHTF then you may actually live through it. Of course, there are more FEMA camps in your neck of the woods than almost anywhere else in the country (especially if you move to Nevada).

Just my 2 cents since everyone else was giving.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness

Given the 0% correct track record, I certainly wouldn't be making life decisions based on the board.

I wouldn't make life changing decisions based on an internet board either. Although I do value the ATS members opinions as a whole, I would not up and go solely because they said so. That being said, if you look at all the articles out there and all the evidence that points toward some sort of real economy affects, then it would seem the ATS consensus is correct. Timing may be another issue, but the evidence supports many of their fears.

Asking a internet board where many people think Its The End Of The World As We Know It is obviously going to get you a "of course" response from most people. The reality is that a bank failure does not effect your obligations on a loan - the loan is sold to someone else.

You are obviously failing to understand the thread for what it is. You seem to be blanketing it with some kind of doom and gloom prediction or fear. Maybe this is your subconscious talking. I have not asked or claimed anything about "The End Of The World As We Know It." This is the construct in your head trying to make something out of nothing. You may want to address that.

How would anyone be able to answer that unless we have your resume?

My resume has no bearing on whether or not jobs will be available in Vegas if some sort of economic crash were to occur. That seems pretty obvious to me.

reply to post by thecandyman

There are ways to set off your mortgage with bonds also.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I am completely ignorant when it comes to this kind of stuff.

what strikes me as funny is that Vegas depends on MONEY to operate.

Exactly, this is why I think Vegas will survive. They have so many tourists that come through, I think that alone will be able to hold Vegas from collapse. The casinos just may have tostat accepting other forms of currency i.e. the Euro etc. etc.

Just got done reading a long article about how it has already effected Vegas in huge ways.

I would very much like to read that article, if you could post a link? That would be sweet!

I would never move to someplace with a water shortage and where the land wasn't easy to sow.

It may not be easy to sow, but the Colorado is right there and it is in the middle of the dessert, so there may not be quite the panic as there would be in a metro area in Cali.

I would suggest a little farm area in the backwoods... doesn't have to be far from a town. Get some extra canned goods, ammo (can be used for bartering also), water.. prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Always good sound advice. I agree!

Just my 2 cents since everyone else was giving.

thanks for the input. Will try to get that u2u thing going asap.

reply to post by abelievingskeptic


You mean the evidence that points to a normal cyclical economic recessions? As these happen every 10 years or, its not quite a "run for the hills" event. The only thing the evidence supports is people subconscious desire for an economic disaster. The data, on the other hand, suggest a mild recession - which we are not even in yet.

No economic crash is going to occur, barring a natural disaster of unforeseen proportions. And as Las Vegas as we know it did not exist in the only actual economic crash in American history, how would anyone know what the jobs would be in the event of one?

[edit on 13-7-2008 by aLinkToThePast]

Originally posted by aLinkToThePast
reply to post by abelievingskeptic

 

If the economy does collapse ,nevada regardless of their casinos will not stay afloat either. I doubt many tourists will make the trip while the rest of the country is enveloped with poverty and famine. Nevada may last a little longer, but in order for them to survive all the manufacturers, food, and other imports would have to be internal, nevada would have to be self suistanable. They do use the same dollar as the rest of america so if its worth nothing, its worth nothing. Not to mention any last efforts to save the economy or to pillage as much resources, or money would suck the vegas casinos dry, just like everything else. You think the American government and American people are going to let 1 state bathe in gold and money while the rest are dying, hahaha i think not. Nevada is not independent its part of America. What are they going to do try and split? goodluck.

AS other people in here have said before, move away from all large urban areas, rural is the place to be , or total seclusion would be best. Survival will be much easier if you can live away from thousands of people who will not stop at the chance to raid your home and steal any food or anything else of value, and possbly kill you. Would it be possible as a last resort to institute a barter system type..?

Originally posted by TheRedneck
You misunderstand me. The political double-speak we have today makes it hard sometimes to portray what one actually means.

Yes Sir.

That is why I am touchy regarding the word being used as a negative,...

I hear "liberal" being used constantly as ad hom on the level with nazi's or communists...Then, being inquisitive I crack open a dictionary and am amazed at how it could be used as such.

When the word makes me think about all the best things that is America and humanity. Liberal is a word that I think is positive to strive for in ones life.

I do like words alot, more then most people... and I think if they were all used correctly then we would be in alot better shape.

Hell we could certainly communicate more efficiently .. and being efficient is always good.

Originally posted by TheRedneck By the term 'liberal', I was referring to those who believe that the government has all the answers, the government is always right and in their best interest, and that they are owed a living simply by being born into this society.

I think the word .. "Parasites" fits those you are talking about better

I have very little regard for the Government... for that word itself means

Govern= Control
Ment= Mental = Mind

So essentially every time the word "Government" is used.. people are saying "Mind Control" --- Interesting how most things are hidden right under our noses.

I am too much of an Anarchist (meaning decentralized leadership) to think that much positive about the government we have.

However I do pay my taxes... and I do feel that the fact that we live together in a society ... we do so for the collective benefit of all...

My mother raised my brother and myself .. by herself and she put herself through medical school...

However we did get welfare.. and I am glad we did because it did help us step up to a better life... and now I live a life that not very many can say they also experiance. (although I think my experiance with it was an ideal one which not very many adhere to with the program)

Being that I do pay my taxes.. I would rather see them spent in ways that help my fellow countrymen, and not in ways that handicap them because they hit a rough patch.

From your point of view an analogy I can bring up is the Death Penalty..

I am against that. Why?

Because we have executed innocent men only to find out they are innocent after it is too late... Imagine that horror for a second of being that poor innocent person!

So because our system is not perfect.. and there is a chance that the man or woman would be innocent.. even if it is 1 out of a million.. and the 999,999 all deserve to die...

There is still an innocent man in the mix.. and I am not willing to pull the trigger on someone who is innocent.

Same goes for welfare.. there are families (in a much higher ratio then 1 in a Million) that benefit greatly by welfare in a time of need for them. I was one of them. Certainly there are those that become parasites... I am not one of them.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Judging from your other posts, I don't think you are in that particular class of 'liberal'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I am not.. you are correct

Originally posted by TheRedneck

Were all in this together... everyman for himself will just doom us to extinction.

Sorry, but if by that you mean I owe you something, I don't think so. Neither do you owe me anything. We each stand on his/her own in the end, and any help given to each other is an act of humanity and compassion, not a requirement of debt.

TheRedneck

You do not OWE me nor do I owe you.

I am not going to kick you when you are down. Even the best laid plans fail...and even the most prepared trip and fall sometimes...

Regardless to that... I am not going to let you starve while I eat steak and lobster.

Granted I do not want to pay for you to party and get high 24-7...but that's why food stamps are to buy food with.

I know there is abuse... It is human nature to take advantage of opportunities.

However how do we know that the next person that will have a solution that will improve all lives is not hungry in some trailer park, project... or mud hut.

Now only if we could get an education system that actually teaches people how to think... we might see more of those seeds blossom.

Anyhow I think we agree more then disagree..

Especially when it comes to the importance of intent.

reply to post by thecandyman



Indeed...

That is what I was talking about regarding the note's.

CandyMan I would like to know more about that .. just to have that knowledge... please PM me the info as well.

I also agree with everything else you said. Call me paranoid... but I do not think you can ever really have enough food in storage... and ammo!.. yeah.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness

You mean the evidence that points to a normal cyclical economic recessions?

Well, you can call it whatever you like. I am not an economic forecaster, nor do I have the knowledge to even come close as to making any predictions. I will go by the price of gold (which is the highest it has ever been from what I understand) and the economic experts I read of (which most are outside ATS, although there are quite a few informed members here..just browse around and you will see who they are).

As to how a "collapse" may occur and the exact affects on the economy as a whole is speculation on everyones part. Personally, I don't believe it will be an entire collapse (depending on how you define the word collapse) of the whole economy and industry, although I fear it may be somewhat like the Great Depression. And fyi, there were still plenty of jobs during the Great epression, just not enough for everyone.

The data, on the other hand, suggest a mild recession - which we are not even in yet.

I believe many people and experts will disagree with you.

And as Las Vegas as we know it did not exist in the only actual economic crash in American history, how would anyone know what the jobs would be in the event of one?

No one would know exactly, but is there anything wrong with discussing that here? Or are you just...whats the word?..trolling

reply to post by SavageHenry
I also understand the original use of the word 'liberal'. It is truly a shame that a connotation so out of line with the definition would exist. Yet, in common usage, it is a fact. Somehow that reminds me of your breakdown of the word 'government'...

Which brings up the only problem I have with welfare: those who use it for a hammock rather than a safety net. Never will you hear me say we should not care for those who are beset by the unfortunate consequences of bad decisions in a capitalistic society... but never will you hear me condone allowing those who use the system to abuse it. I think welfare should be easy to use, difficult to abuse. I also love to hear of those who have used it to rise above the need for welfare, so thank you for that story. I have used food stamps myself in times of distress, but I have always been able to walk into their office and surrender their card with a smile on my face and a hearty 'thank you' on my lips... and I am proud of that fact.

Helping others is a sign of human compassion and is a very good thing. But when the government gets involved, it usually winds up being a situation where others want you to help. I can extend charity very well without a government program to help me surrender my hard-earned rewards. No taxation required for that.

We do apparently agree on most issues surrounding this, but enough off-topic. I am sure we'll find plenty of on-topic threads to hash out the details in.

TheRedneck

reply to post by ALightinDarkness

You mean the evidence that points to a normal cyclical economic recessions? As these happen every 10 years or, its not quite a "run for the hills" event. The only thing the evidence supports is people subconscious desire for an economic disaster. The data, on the other hand, suggest a mild recession - which we are not even in yet.

You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but you should be aware that the data you reference is skewed. The inflation index no longer includes the cost of food or fuel, and the GDP is being propped up by higher prices on these necessities while ignoring the continuing decrease in the availability of cash for discretionary spending by the majority of the population.

You are correct that the users here as a whole have a very poor record of success with dire predictions. I, however, prefer to look at each user individually rather than as a group, and I am sure you will find some pretty accurate users in that light.

Besides, better safe than sorry. Self-reliance is never a bad thing, whether society all freezes in a fiery flood or not.

TheRedneck