The 7 Year Treaty/Tribulation (the mistaken doctrine)

The 7 Year Treaty with the Tribulation beginning at the mid point doctrine is derived from this verse in the book of Daniel

Daniel 9 (King James Version)
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, as the doctrine goes…
The Beast (the political leader of the 10 Nation revived Holy Roman Empire), will make a 7 year treaty with Israel and at the mid point 3 ½ years into it, will break the treaty, and desolate Isreal.

But let’s step back a second, and find out who the “he” is, that makes the covenant….


To do so we must examine the whole passage.

Daniel 9 (King James Version)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

When you look at the whole section of this passage in Daniel, the “he”, the subject of the passage becomes evident, the “he” is referring to the Messiah : Jesus Christ.
Some commentaries will correctly identify the “he” as referring to Christ.
Christ’s ministry was a 7 YEAR ministry, but He was cut off from the land of the living..

Isaiah 53:8
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

He came to offer himself as the final sacrifice, and in doing so end the need for the old system of sacrificial offerings and gifts. As it is stated earlier in the passage : “to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity”.

Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

In the midst of “the week” (Christ’s 7 year ministry), after 3 ½ years, Christ was (of course) “cut off”. Now this begs the question (which I shall address later), what happened or will happen with the latter half of that “week”? The last 3 ½ years of Christ’s ministry?

Before addressing that, I want to address the "Third Temple" issue, since this is related (possibly) to the 7 Year Peace Treaty doctrine.
[TO BE CONTINUED]







[edit on 11-7-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

Let’s examine the two main passages in the NT, that seem to indicate that there will be a Third Temple (keep in mind, the bible is definitive on one point, that the sacrificial system will be re-instituted)



The first one is in reference to the False Prophet or as he is commonly called: The Man of Sin.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 (King James Version)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

But notice! It DOES NOT SAY he (the False Prophet) will sit in the temple. It says he sits AS GOD sits in his (God’s) temple. So the False Prophet will take on the title of God when he sits on his throne, as God does on His.



The second main verse is in Revelation

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God

The “me”, is NOT John, John of course, never measured any temple. The “me” to whom the “reed like a rod” given, is some man at the end of time, who exists before the start of the Tribulation, and he will be given the task of measuring the temple.



Now let’s backtrack…the NT discusses a number of “temples”. What temple is being measured here? By this man with the “reed like a rod”?


There are a number of “temples”…there are “5” different “temples” mentioned in the NT.





1) Jesus’s body.

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

John 2:21
But he spake of the temple of his body.

2) The 2nd Temple that was destroyed.


3) The Church = The Spiritual Body of Christ = Temple

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Here is key…when you see “ye”, the “ye” is referring to the whole church.





4) Temple that is measured by man with “reed like a rod”. Possibly a 3rd physical Temple?





5) Actual temple in Heaven.







Now one can immediately toss as candidates for the temple that is measured in Rev 11:1
#1) Christ’s physical body
#2) The 2nd Temple that was destroyed
#5) The temple in Heaven

This leaves 2 options for that “temple” to be measured:
3) The Church
4) a possible 3rd physical temple that will be erected on the Dome of the Rock.

[to be continued when I get home….]

:-)





[edit on 11-7-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib_2

Now one can immediately toss as candidates for the temple that is measured in Rev 11:1
#1) Christ’s physical body
#2) The 2nd Temple that was destroyed
#5) The temple in Heaven

How do you immediately toss out #5, which would seem to be what it actually says.
You would have to give a reason why it is not literal.
Is there a clue that leads you in that direction?

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib_2

Revelation 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God

The “me”, is NOT John, John of course, never measured any temple. The “me” to whom the “reed like a rod” given, is some man at the end of time, who exists before the start of the Tribulation, and he will be given the task of measuring the temple.

why would it suddenly be someone else? john is the narrator through the whole book, john is in his own vision interacting.

there is nothing to indicate that it is NOT john

#5) The temple in Heaven
How do you immediately toss out #5, which would seem to be what it actually says.
You would have to give a reason why it is not literal.
Is there a clue that leads you in that direction?

The book of Revelation is mostly about the end time (of course).
The focus is mostly, but not entirely, on the last 3 1/2 years of human history which culminates with Christ's return...


We know it can not be #5 because the outer court, the court which is "without", is trampled by the Gentiles. Unless the Gentiles are now allowed to entered Heaven where God's throne is, and to trample about, then we can safely conclude, that the temple being measured is not the one that is in the Third Heaven where God's throne is.

We also note the TIMING. The timing of this measurement happens right before the ministry of the Two Witnesses starts.

Rev 11:1-2 (KJV)
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:

Right after this measurement occurs the Two Witnesses begin their ministry.
(rest of Rev 11)


[edit on 11-7-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

[edit on 11-7-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

reply to post by miriam0566

why would it suddenly be someone else? john is the narrator through the whole book, john is in his own vision interacting.

there is nothing to indicate that it is NOT john

In 66 CE the Jewish population rebelled against the Roman Empire. Four years later, in 70 CE, Roman legions under Titus reconquered and subsequently destroyed much of Jerusalem and the Second Temple.


Today, the overwhelming consensus of scholarship believes that Revelation was written well after a.d. 70. Most have concluded that Revelation was written around a.d. 95, primarily because of the statement by early church father Irenaeus (a.d. 120-202) around a.d. 180.


Since the Temple was destroyed, if the "me" is John, John would have been given an impossible task, if indeed the temple mentioned here in Revelation 11 is a physical building. In 95 A.D., the physical Temple no longer existed, so John could not measure that.

So, if the "me" refers to John, then in this scenario, the temple measured, can not be a physical temple.

But also notice the timing here, the timing here is right before the trampling of the Gentiles of the Holy City (Jerusalem), that spans 3 1/2 years. And right before the start of the ministry of the Two Witnesses.

So there are two options....
1) the "me" is John, the temple is the Church. (no other option fits)
2) the "me" is some figure at the end of time, who measures a "temple" right before the start of the Two Witnesses' ministry.

[edit on 11-7-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

Again, the only physical temple that John could have measured had been destroyed. So we know it can't refer to that.

Now John was exiled on the Isle of Patmos, when he wrote the book of Revelations, so if we say the "temple" referred to in Revelation is a spiritual temple (Rev. 3:12), then even this commission could not be fulfilled John..he was in no position to measure the Church's spiritual condition where he was.

And to repeat again, the timing, the timing of this event, is at the end of the age, so the "me" can not apply to John.



Also remember, verse 1 refers to a trampling of the outer court by Gentiles. If the destruction of the 2nd Temple is the "trampling", that happened in 70 A.D., then at the time Revelation was written, it was history. But clearly the "trampling" is a future trampling of which the event in 70 A.D., was a type or forerunner of.

[edit on 11-7-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

The book of Revelation is mostly about the end time (of course).

Apocalypse has been turned into a different meaning, because of common usage, into "end times" but it actually means Revelation, so your "of course" is your opinion and not an established fact.(at least you offer no proof)

The focus is mostly, but not entirely, on the last 3 1/2 years of human history which culminates with Christ's return...

Again, that is your opinion and is not a view accepted by the majority of Bible scholars.

"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

Unless the Gentiles are now allowed to entered Heaven where God's throne is, and to trample about, then we can safely conclude, that the temple being measured is not the one that is in the Third Heaven where God's throne is.

Right here it shows that there is a long future, in that the religion of God is being compromised by the Pagans.
What is trampled is the place where the type of the heavenly temple had stood, and that is Jerusalem.

The timing of this measurement happens right before the ministry of the Two Witnesses starts.

All you need to know is that the witnesses is symbolic of the word of God.
Mankind rose up in opposition to God and tryed to destroy the Bible.
The curses of the bible against the enemies of God were carried out.
The nations were devastated and eventually returned to God.
There is a way of understanding the time of sack cloth being 1260 days meaning the number of years that the truth of the Bible was supressed by the Roman Church, from when they got full power, to when their power was broken.

Again, the only physical temple that John could have measured had been destroyed. So we know it can't refer to that.

You seem to be determined to leave out the other option of there being a material Temple in Heaven.

Revelation 14:17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.

[edit on 12-7-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Apocalypse has been turned into a different meaning, because of common usage, into "end times" but it actually means Revelation, so your "of course" is your opinion and not an established fact.(at least you offer no proof)

There are many proof texts, amply demonstrating that the majority of the book, is focused on the last 3 1/2 years of human history.

The ministry of the Two Witnesses, will be of two men (not the bible).

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones [Hebrew : sons], that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

"ones" - Hebrew is Bane = sons





Their ministry culminates with the blowing of the 7th and last trumpet. (which happens after they are resurrected)

Rev 11:15 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever

Their are other parallel verses in Revelation that reference this 7th and Last Trumpet.






The whole of the book leads up to the beginning of the millennial reign

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The timing, that is that period of time, preceding and leading up to that verse, is repeatedly stated as 1260 days, 42 lunar months, 3 1/2 years. They are all the same time periods, that all culminate with the Second Coming. The all deal with the end of the age of man.

All you need to know is that the witnesses is symbolic of the word of God.
Mankind rose up in opposition to God and tried to destroy the Bible.

Again, the Two Witnesses will be men, only men can be killed, only two dead men can lie on the streets of Jerusalem, only men can be resurrected.

You can not "kill" the bible. Heaven and earth would pass away before that could happen.
Not one "jot or tittle" would be removed till all is fulfilled (Matt 5:18)

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

Again, the Two Witnesses will be men, only men can be killed, only two dead men can lie on the streets of Jerusalem, only men can be resurrected.

And men can kill people with fire coming out of their mouths?
I think it has to be seen in a figurative way.
It does not say Jerusalem, but the Great City.
That has to mean the world civilization.

Go ahead and get to your point you want to make.
Something about how we are wrong.

You can not time things out and put everything into a normal chronological order by looking at where it is found in the book.
It goes through cycles of time, over and over, covering different aspects of History.
I think it was written in order to be useful to anyone who would read it and not just for one generation, so I have to disagree on practically everything you have said, so far.

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib_2


Kindly take note that there are 2 beast of Revelation - 2 anti-Christs. One sits in the throne of the newly built third temple - the false messiah and the other, the false prophet will act on his behalf to be his "vicar".

The coming of the lawless one which is the false messiah will be in accordance to the working of Satan which is the evil spirit that works in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders to deceive those who are perishing. They are two beasts in Revelation, the false messiah and the false prophet. It is of vital importance that we correctly identify the nature of these two beasts and who they really are and what will they be doing during the coming of the false messiah. The false messiah will be sitting in the throne located in the inner rooms of the temple of Jerusalem and he will proclaim himself as "God" as written on these scriptures:

Matthew 24 – NIV

23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

2 Thessalonians 2 - RSV

3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Before the false messiah comes, a new temple must be built in Jerusalem. The main purpose of the building of the third temple is the resumption of sacrificial worship.

www.xjohn.com...

Kindly take note that there are 2 beast of Revelation - 2 anti-Christs. One sits in the throne of the newly built third temple - the false messiah and the other, the false prophet will act on his behalf to be his "vicar".

Yes, there will not be 1 Anti-Christ, but 2 Anti-Christ.

Both the Beast and the False Prophet (one being the leader of the Beast System, and the other being the leader of the Babylonian Religious System of Rome), will be anti-christs.

Most translations will translate 2 Thess 2:4 as

"...so that he AS God sitteth in the temple of God"

This verse is referring to the false prophet, he sits AS God sits on throne, that is, the verse is making a comparison, the false prophet is lifted up in his heart, and claims to be God (Ezek 28:2). So the verse is making a comparison rather than stating that is what he does literally. So I don't think that a literal temple will be build. I don't say it won't be build, I am saying the scriptures are ambiguous on this point.

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

...the false prophet, he sits AS God sits on throne...

Thanks for making your point.
You could have said that at the beginning.
I thought you were going somewhere else.
I am about sick of people (who are not even Jews) advocating building a temple so that God can have His prophesy fulfilled.


[edit on 14-7-2008 by jmdewey60]