Men; we cannot allow ourselves to become like this!

Yeah, I know that there have been a number of gender related threads on this board before, but something I read made me decide that I need to make another. No, I don't believe in any grand conspiracy where women are trying to emasculate us or anything like that, but damn it, why are so many men becoming so much less...manly!? Part of it is media, I say. Here's what I'm talking about:

Hiking is an activity many men look forward to with the same relish they take in reading Aristotle in the original Greek, receiving a prostate exam, or attending a Celine Dion concert. The way we see it, nature is way overrated. How many flowers can you smell? How many sunsets can you ooh and ahh over? How many coyotes can you worry about being in the vicinity? Plus, there’s no access to the Internet or email. No TV sports. Bugs everywhere. What about any of this spells fun? Unless you look at fun as the first three letters of funeral.

You want your shot of nature? Invite us to the beach at sunset. Take a blanket and a six-pack, make out for half an hour, then head home so we can get back to civilization. That’s enough nature to hold us for the next three months.

What the Hell?

That's a load of absolute and utter crap. Since when was it so common to view men as lazy, unthinking couch potatoes who are only happy when they've got a beer, a TV, and the internet in front of them? There was a time when characters like Homer Simpson existed in cartoons as someone to laugh at, not look up to! I love hiking. I live in Phoenix, and I go hiking all the time when it's 110 out! I go RUNNING up mountains when it's 110 out! I'm not sitting inside going "Ewww, I don't want to get dirty! What if there's coyotes? Or BUGS!?" And I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, I'm just remembering a day when that kind of lazy behavior was frowned upon, not encouraged! Now, you turn on the TV and watch just about any show and the man is always depicted as a lazy, uneducated (but lovable!) fool who gets bossed around by his wife. What happened to the days when men took control, disciplined the kids, made decisions, worked on the car, took care of the yard? What happened to men that kids could look up to and respect? That kind of opens up another can of worms, doesn't it? Who are the male role models for the kids going to be if this trend continues; if men keep regressing to the point where their social standing in the family falls somewhere in between the eldest child and the mother? All of the qualities that made men men at one time are being discouraged, and instead they're being replaced with crap like

but we’ll no doubt come down with some exotic disease and need to be treated in a culture where doctors are still playing catch-up with the wonders of Medieval medicine.

Got the travel bug, ladies? That’s why God created National Geographic. We’ll gladly treat you to a subscription.

Ugh! It makes me sick!

Good thread. : )

Yeah the coyote thing is pretty funny. Like a grown man has a reason to fear coyotes (well if he brought his little miniature poodle out camping with him, then I guess yeah he might have reason to worry).

But I do hope the op plans to be a MAN and control this thread by encouraging thoughtful discussion and discouraging really ugly, sexist remarks. This could easily attract woman haters instead of discussing how perhaps some men have become feminized.

And yes I do think it is partly the media. Some men make the mistake of thinking that women will like them more if they ACT like women. They haven't quite gotten the grasp that women don't want men to agree with them all the time, and we surely don't want men that can't change a tire or ask US to kill the spider in the bathtub. We want balance. Men that are macho without be brutes.

I think it is also somewhat regional. In california it was really quite bad, in the deep south many men still have manly pursuits.

[edit on 7-7-2008 by Sonya610]

Of course I do STRONGLY discourage ugly sexist remarks and all of that. I'm leaving tomorrow for a week, though, so unfortunately I won't be here to moderate the discussion. I'll have to count on the good people of ATS not to let this one evolve into another gender bashing thread. I don't blame women for what's happening, but I do blame people. I agree with you about the balance. I think that men and women were created with different attributes, and by utilizing these, a husband and wife can run a household TOGETHER. There appear to be a large number of people who believe that feminism means that women should act like men. If men get away with it, why not women? I say, instead, that women should be strong women and men should be strong men.

Of course, I don't believe anyone "needs to stay in their place." People should be free to do what they want, but I see a very destructive socialization mechanism being developed amongst men, and I don't like it.

I see the emasculation of men about everyother weekend. I run a flyfishing guide and outfitting service and cater to mostly affluent, city dwelling men. A large number of "men" I guide on the river have to call on their cell, their wives ever hr. on the hr. They are afraid of small water snakes and lizards, afraid to net the fish, should they catch one, never want to camp out, would rather drive 20mi. back to a motel.
The fishing thing is so they can go home to Denver or Dallas or Phoenix and tell their buddies what manly outdoorsmen they were. When in fact they were a bunch of sissy's. Without the "sissy's" however my income would be drastically reduced. What er ya gonna do? The proud masculine types would rather gut it out and catch fewer or no fish at all, than hire a guide.

Originally posted by HermanThere appear to be a large number of people who believe that feminism means that women should act like men. If men get away with it, why not women? I say, instead, that women should be strong women and men should be strong men.

I honestly don’t think many real life women act like men. Sure many women are more independent, live alone and have to learn more skills, but acting like men?

It’s like when men say “many women will get ugly if a man holds a door open for them”. I have NEVER known any women like that, they may exist but they are surely a rarity. We may be able to change a tire, or install a ceiling fan, or shoot a home invader, but believe me 99% of the women out there are HAPPIER when we can get a man to do it for us.

I think another problem is that many men socialize with women instead of other men! In the old days guys hung out with other guys, the drank at the local bar, went fishing, went to ball games, and bonded with other MALES. These days lots of men proudly say most of their friends are women. Sheesh if they hung out with other males more often they would identify with the male psyche more, if they hang out with women all the time they will naturally start to emulate women.

And the same cannot be said about most women. Sure some women prefer mostly male friends, but most women will say most of their friends are female.


[edit on 7-7-2008 by Sonya610]

I feel so offended as a androgynous/transgendered male , by this thread

Not EVERYONE lives the life of a duality or feels like that

And I dont really see a lot of men being feminine, but maybe my standards are different...most men in my opinion are still pretty masculine in their acting and thoughts

I never had any interest in going to the pub, talking about women, go on a hike or survival, go to a rugby match...or whatever most men do

Spiritually I believe having a balanced spirit between masculinity and feminity is very rewarding


These threads can really enrage me!

You know, I can agree with this thread. I notice this a lot more in big cities though. I was born and raised in Baltimore, MD, and recently moved to north western, PA. All my buddies in Baltimore used to do is hang out, watch tv, play video games and go to the clubs at night. Now everyone I know in PA does pretty masculine things for fun. We all work on each others cars, go hunting( and if we see a coyotee we shoot its arse), fishing, yard work, cutting firewood, and all kinds of other man stuff. And at the end of the day we go out to one of our backyards, build a huge fire and sit around it drinking beer and telling jokes. This is my idea of fun.

reply to post by Herman


The quote you posted in your original post is completely nuts and reminded me of an article I read around Christmas time that was featured on Yahoo's home page. There was an article offering gift ideas and advice for children and suggested to avoid books since they are boring and gifts designed for outdoor use because the children could hurt themselves. So the article recommended buying video games as gifts for fool-proof success.

When I read the quoted segment saying hiking was no fun because 'There’s no access to the Internet or email. No TV sports' I almost spit my drink out and remember that Yahoo article from Christmas.

Good thread and I agree with everything you said. And even more than just men, it seems like society as a whole is shifting toward the trend that if it isn't electric and if it doesn't allow us to be sedentary then it isn't any fun.

[edit on 7/7/2008 by AshleyD]

Somehow comic characters like Homer Simpson have gone from being a figure of fun, and you just might know someone down the road a bit like him (my dad) to someone to aspire to.... How this has come about I don't know but it means that men have become wusses rather than girly, happier to sit on the couch and watch tv :w: than go out doing the blokey things.

I don't happen to think hiking and camping and stuff is blokey anyway, it's peopley, everyone should do it, We've just got lazy, all of us.

Real men should not be afraid to show their feelings, I hate blokes that let their pride rule them, they end up looking ridiculous, for example a 'real' man will walk my little Bichon Frise and not be embarassed! HaHaHa. Also real blokes should be able to cook and clean and look after the kids and still feel like a real man. I've known 'girly' men that are totaly impractical when it comes to all the usual 'female' pastimes as well as the the male ones. So I don't think its anything to do with what activities you take part in but more your frame of mind.
Theres nothing sexier than a big butch bloke with a cute little puppy (kitten, baby etc.)

Women that act like 'stupid' blokes just look ridiculous too! whats the point? women can have fun too without acting like a bad example of a man.:w:

Originally posted by A curious catfor example a 'real' man will walk my little Bichon Frise and not be embarassed! HaHaHa.

A guy walking a foofy little dog is sort of like a guy standing around holding a purse. There better be a woman in the picture! (Unless of course they are gay, then its fine).

[edit on 7-7-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by A curious catfor example a 'real' man will walk my little Bichon Frise and not be embarassed! HaHaHa.

A guy walking a foofy little dog is sort of like a guy standing around holding a purse. There better be a woman in the picture! (Unless of course they are gay, then its fine).

[edit on 7-7-2008 by Sonya610]

HaHaHa It just depends how butch the guy is!

No seriously it's pretty brave of a guy to walk a dog like that, I've only asked when I'm really not able to (dodgy bones so I use crutches,) now most of my friends have bitten the bullet and one is so secure in his butchness hes gotten a chiahuaha! Then there's been a couple of them that don't care if she pees in the house or not, theres NO way they will be seen dead with her! Thats NOT manly.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATSI feel so offended as a androgynous/transgendered male , by this thread
Not EVERYONE lives the life of a duality or feels like that

And I dont really see a lot of men being feminine, but maybe my standards are different...most men in my opinion are still pretty masculine in their acting and thoughts

These threads can really enrage me!

Of course you don’t think many guys are a bit feminine, your transgendered! I am not sure how you self identify, being transgendered and all, but sheesh even the gay (male) community appreciates macho males. For that matter the lesbian community appreciates the macho females too (and honestly maybe some of those butch girls should be giving lessons to straight metrosexual men).

Its just many straight men seem to be going through some sort of identity crisis. Somehow they blame it on women, as if it is OUR job to make them feel macho. And that is where the problem lies.

The truth is when men are truly masculine and stronger than women the women do NOT have to make them feel like men. They do not base their perception of their own machismo on us. For instance I am a pretty opinionated female, plus I am into weapons to some degree and such and yeah with many guys that means they take on the more submissive role.

But sheesh I can tell you I have NEVER dated a military guy (especially one that has seen combat) that has ever in any way hinted, implied, or worried about me being not feminine enough for them, or conversely them not being macho enough to deal with me. They are tough guys and they know it and they don’t have to compare themselves to women in order to know they are men. I am not going to intimidate them by being myself, because in comparison there IS no comparison.

(I love this thread, this topic sort of was touched on a couple of other times but then it was discouraged. Great to see a thread devoted to a difficult issue.)

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
I never had any interest in going to the pub, talking about women, go on a hike or survival, go to a rugby match...or whatever most men do

As Sonya already said, you're transgendered, so of course the things that I said aren't really going to apply to you. In being transgendered/androgynous, you've essentially given up all of your man cards.


But back to you not liking to hike or go to pubs and those types of things. You might not like to do them, but are you afraid to do them? Can you "not handle" them, because you're a man who needs his pizza, beer, and couch? This is what I'm talking about. What I'm saying goes beyond "Men need to eat beef jerky all day and kill things to be real men." It's about the attitudes of men, and how they are being socialized, not necessarily specific activities. It's not about you HAVE to do this or CAN'T do that. It's about masculinity in general. It's about men being tough, and not being afraid to go hiking because of the dirt, the bugs, and the lack of a television. It's about not letting ourselves be socialized into physically and mentally weak children. I for one, am against hunting for sport. I would never go out and kill an animal just for fun. I value their lives. Yes, I would kill to eat if I needed to, but I see killing for sport as being just plain wrong. Does this make me less manly? No, not in my opinion. I'm not saying that men need phony bravado, or that they should act like apes. Yes, it's perfectly fine for men to show their feelings. "Being a man" doesn't mean you're shallow and don't have emotions, it just means that you can deal with them.

Sonya,

Personally, I think it would be really cool to have a girlfriend that was into weapons. Although I don't hunt, I do own an AK47 and I definitely enjoy shooting it. I worked with a girl for a while that knew a ton about guns. It was an automatic bonus for her in my eyes. Unfortunately, she was married and a little older than me, but it was still a ton of fun to talk with her about gun stuff. If I could find a girlfriend who would go hiking and shooting and camping with me, I'd be in heaven. I see no reason for it to be a threat to my masculinity or anything like that.

Anyway, that's it for me for a week or so. I'm glad people are enjoying my thread, and perhaps it will still be running when I return.

You get a star my friend. I will never, as a man become a feminine poster boy. I'd rather be sitting on a couch, drinking coors light and getting fat than become the new trend type boy that wears ipods and unisex clothes to the gym.

Let me just preface this by admitting i'm a liberal and a feminist - in the classic sense of the word. My man is "manly" and that is just the way I like it.

My man is my man not because he can use a hunting knife, or can beat up that creepy guy who stares at me when I walk past, or can run uphill in 110 degree weather. I don't believe being a man is about that.

My man is a real man because when we walk into a pub he puts his arms around my waist and steers me to a good place to sit.

My man is a real man because when we go camping he tells me the eggs I burnt over the camp stove are great.

My man is a real man because when his friends make crude remarks in front of me he tells them to shut it.

My man is a real man because when we walk along a sidewalk he makes sure I'm on the side away from traffic.

My man is a man because he takes care of the ewwy spider which has invaded my panty drawer ( he actually takes it outside, that might not be manly enough?)

My man is a real man because he won't back down when I want to buy that ridculously expensive pair of shoes and reasons with me that we can't realistically afford it.

My man is a real man because with him I feel absolutley safe. I know he'd kill for me, die for me and any potential offspring. That's biology and we can't escape that no matter how much feminization of man might be pushed onto us by the media.

My man also happens to shave regularly, take baths and hates going into the sea for fear of sharks..

He might be a man, but he's human first.

Awesome thread. I understand totally what you're saying and it's a real shame, as a lot of really great things could be forgotten through this social change. But who knows? Maybe alot of neat things could come out of it. We'll just have to wait and see.

Merigold good post. What I hear you saying is that your man has your back, and if the chips are down you can trust him to take care of the situation or die trying. From a biological/evolutionary standpoint that is a very important quality, and one women are programmed to really appreciate in a mate. When we secretly think "okay if the poop hits the fan we better deal with it, cause he is going to fall apart" that does not inspire much respect.

Sure in any relationship there needs to be balance, and men need to be able to lean on their partners, but if men identify too much with their female partners they can "sympathize or emmulate" instead of offering support. When we freak out we do NOT want to hear the guy say "oh god, yeah, this is really bad and i am freaking out too!" We want them to say "Relax. I'll handle it".

PeaceUK things won’t be forgotten, this is a just phase society is going through. There are still plenty of images of macho men, plus unless wars go out of style men cannot become completely feminized.

And I do think there are a lot of factors at work here. Sure women becoming more independent is one of them. But also right now in the western world some “types” of men are facing a lot of belittlement and criticism in our society. I don’t want to derail the thread, but I do think this plays into it and I do think one specific group of males is affected more than others; white men are often demeaned these days in lots of subtle ways. That has an effect on their self esteem. I mean these days its not pc to make fun of any demographic, or portray them as continually stupid or incompetent for laughs, unless of course they are white guys. Then it is considered just fine. I think it is sending the wrong message, especially to kids.

But it is a phase and it will pass. I mean they may not all become great outdoors men if they live in the city and all, but hopefully they will become more confident in their manly personality traits.



[edit on 8-7-2008 by Sonya610]

The guy who wrote the article (Mark Miller) is a not a very bright guy IMHO. I could not disagree more with everthing he said. How did he get published?

Originally posted by Merigold
Let me just preface this by admitting i'm a liberal and a feminist - in the classic sense of the word. My man is "manly" and that is just the way I like it.

My man is my man not because he can use a hunting knife, or can beat up that creepy guy who stares at me when I walk past, or can run uphill in 110 degree weather. I don't believe being a man is about that.

See, this is what I meant when I said that it's not, in my opinion, specific actions that make a man a man. Your husband is somebody you can count on. Somebody that you obviously respect, and I'm sure the respect is mutual. This is what I'm talking about. Your husband sounds like a real gentleman in a world where men are being reduced to lazy couch-potatoes who need their wives to run the household.