Self Defence - advice wanted in regards to knife armed attackers

in most situations nowadays its never gonna be a fair fight wether said thug has a knife or 2 or 3mates so running is always the best option and the prudent one there is no shame there.most fights are between unskilled (as far as fighting goes)people and so luck aside usually are won by the biggest/strongest person its just natures way.all martial arts are catagorized as hard or soft depending on there method of defeating said attacker ,hard arts like karate tend to meet force with force hence a lot of direct blocking etc whearas something considered soft like akido use the atackers energy/force and motion against them by redirecting it using minimal force itself . a proper martial art makes the playing field even regardless of strength or size, its all teqniuque, ur average 10 yr old can exert enough force to snap most peoples wrists ,elbow,knee etc so if u have the technique u can do any one damage pretty much given chance.
I spent an age looking for an art that would help in a real world situation ie at the bar in a pub or in the street where the attacker is gonna be right up close in your face and ended up settling on Wing Chun ala Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan which has 3 forms or sets if you will that train you to fight at 3 distances from 1-arms length 2-elbows length and 3- pretty much nose to nose litterally they also cover weapons sword, butterfly, knives, staff etc,there are no offensive moves as such in Wing Chun where you attack someone else, all the moves etc are actualy both block and counterstrike- when someone throws a punch at you you watch their body signals and as the punch comes you block it by deflection or stepping offline and counter punch all in one fluid movement .Also Wing Chun punches are done with the fist vertical as oposed to say boxing were the fist is horizontal as vertical is a more natural position and a hell of a lot quicker/more efficient one good punch this way will quite easily stun someone long enough for you to scarper instead of wrestling while you try and land that haymaker not good v someone with a knife
suprisingly if you have 2 people with a good technique its actualy the other way round the bigger person is usually slower and less effective/mobile at defending/reacting.when we used to spar in the group i frequently got one guy who was a black belt in karate and a monster of a man about 6ft6ins about 38 yrs and well built about 19 stone and comparitively easy to hold off,im about 5ft8 and35yrs weigh about half as much as soon as he shifted weight or dropped a shoulder you could see it coming a mile off.,he came to our class as he'd gotten in to a few fights and the karate hadnt really helped him if any at all they were all your nose pressed to nose male macho # going on kind of situations. most arts require a stance that can be compared to boxings southpaw ect leading with one hand and foot or the other most real life oponents wont wait while you asume some stance before they try and open your head also stances that lead with one hand/foot are a good indicator as to whether you are right or left handed most people lead with the weaker hand/foot so you need something with a square on stance that looks passive disguises your weak/strongside and enables quick movement .the other person i got quite regularly was a lady about 25 yrs 5ft5ins and 8stoneish. now there is were the ego goes south she was quicker, more precise/dexterous camoflauged her body movement better gave me no end of trouble (and a fat lip funnily enough) at one point .there are few kicks in Wing Chun none above waist height as kicks while they look nice generally expose one of your most vulnerable points whilst leaving you open for your standing leg being sweept=on the floor=not good at all.
one of the other sparring drills they did that was usefull was 4 v 1 ,one person in the middle other 4 surrounding them front sides and behind ,person in the middle had to sense the coming random attacks then block and counter

OP, you can tell what the intentions of someone would be juedging by there head movements. I'm in a gang (I've never done nothin to no one who didn't deserved it ATS and I'll tell all to MOD's if they asked) and I can verify that an attacker would be scoping the situation before the initial attack begins. If you manage to see this take note.

An attacker would most likley attack from behind, as coward as they are you need to exploit this, listen for footsteps when you are alone, listen for unusual sounds.

Also, this sounds soooo Metal Gear Solid, but if you manage to see a light flickering away at chest level, rest assured its a knife. PLease be cautionary to these situations.

If you need information OP U2U me and i'll gladly write you up something!!! one less scared citizen

A vast number of knife disarms exist, originating in various martial arts from around the world. There are a bunch of people who swear by them - but I'm not convinced.

The bottom line is that none of them are foolproof, and even a highly-trained martial artist cringes at the sight of a knife (or should, if s/he's smart).

If the guy wielding the knife is stupid, and decides to attack you with clumsy, wide slashing swings, or off-target lunges, you have a better chance at performing the disarm. But if they're smart, and they attack with a rapid series of short stabs, keeping their arm close to their side, you're in trouble.

A lot of people will give you a lot of advice on this subject, where to grab, how to move, how to twist, etc., etc.. I would be very leery of that advice, if I were you. Overconfidence is just as likely to get you stabbed.

The best advice is to not get in the situation (cheers redneck)- see the fight coming and avoid it by any means necessary.

The second best advice (should it ever come to the point where you can't get away) is probably to wrap a sweatshirt or flannel shirt around your secondary arm (then make sure that if you do get slashed/stabbed, it's the protected arm that takes the blow), get an improvised weapon with your dominant hand, and try your best not to get slashed up. Keep your distance, wait for the attacker to overextend or put themselves off balance, and then go for their sensitive areas hard and fast.

If the person with the knife is trained, or just smart, you might have to take one or more hits in order to do any damage. That's the purpose of the wrapped arm - if you've got to take a blow, take it on your terms.

I would invest in a good sturdy umbrella or a nice walking stick. I definitely wouldn't carry pepper spray, even if it didn't come with a jail sentence - that stuff is fickle. It's not very effective, and it can do more harm than good if you accidentally get some coming back at you, or you spray their arm and then they hit you in the face. Not to mention the fact that some people laugh that stuff off and keep coming.

I think any authority on the subject would agree that the best universal advice is to keep your distance and give yourself the reach advantage in one way or another.

An umbrella is the least conspicuous option, and it's quite effective. You don't necessarily even need a specially designed fighting umbrella. It just has to be well-constructed and very sturdy.

To be completely honest I would just get a .22 snub nose and make sure you don't get caught with it. Either that or a look-alike gun because unless you can run faster than a knife attacker you are screwed unarmed.

Might I suggest (as silly as it sounds) something very common that you can carry around with you that no one will think twice about... a Yo Yo.

Some think it was a weapon in the Philippines, but that idea has been "debunked". That being said the basic premise for the yo yo as a weapon is very sound if one were to decide to take the time to really learn how to use one. I have never really looked into it but I wouldnt be shocked if there was some info out there relating to the subject.

what ever happened, to good old fashioned kcik to the groin or throat?; )
suppose your being attacked, adn havnt been stabbed yet.... kcik or stopm REAL hard to the groin, or knee caps, kick ahrd enough to hear sometin break or snap... should keep him don for the count. Aslo, his neck... put hand and figners out, bend half yuor fingers in/under, but still keeping the rest straight, and aim for his throat hard, right where the voice box is. Chances are, you jsut may crush his esophogus. Fingersin eyes, and qucikly push hard, n gouge the eyes out. Cause your attack pain they never forget. Then, get the hell outta thier.
Grab back of thier hair, and yank their head back, and aply pressure to the voice box eara of neck.... will have them under your complete submission.

Hey OP,

I think I have an interesting take on this, as I've been a Police Officer in the US for several years.

Any previous posts that mentioned anything other than "run" as a first reaction are simply wrong. My best advice is, when confronted with a knife is run, then run some more, then keep running. It doesn't matter what shape you're currently in; adrenalin will keep the legs moving. Now, with that being said, let me add a few caveats...

1.) Sometimes, you simply can't run. Maybe the bad guy's got you in a corner or other sort of choke point where flight is not an option. This is likely if the bad guy with the knife is a pro...that is, he (she) understands the prey (you) and the combat setting. Moreover, if you run into this situation, this is probably planned by the bad guy as he (she) has done it before and it's lucrative. In this case, you're just a mark, a means to an end. So, as many other members have said, try not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Think to yourself, "Hey, this is a dark alley with no outlet...maybe I shouldn't stroll down there while counting my large wad of cash". (Sarcasm for effect)
2.) I've dealt with many knives, but I've always had a gun (remember: Police). Here's what I learned a long time ago about knife fights...if you're in one, you're going to get cut. This is a universal truth. This may seem counterintuitive, but just listen; both the stabber AND the stabee almost always get cut? Why the stabee? It's simple...blood is slippery. The bad guy with the knife cuts you in a combat situation (and ANY fight of this type is combat, make no mistake...it doesn't have to be in Iraq to be combat) anyway, he (she) cuts you, you bleed, immediately. He (she) is close enough to cut you, so he (she) is close enough to get bled on. The second thrust or slash just makes the knife-wielder bloodier (your blood, by the way) so the violent thrusting or slashing often makes the knife slip in his (her) hand, cutting him (her), too. I've seen in many, many times. The whole point here is simple: no one expects to survive a plane crash, although some do...don't ever expect to NOT get cut in a knife encounter. If you can accept this, you can survive....which brings me to:
3.) You CANNOT "win" a knife encounter. You can only survive one. SO, choose right now. Anyone reading this...take a second and choose. Will you live, or will you die? It's that simple. When used in confrontation, the knife is used as a weapon, both of intimidation and grevious bodily injury. Think of your kids, your wife, your loved ones, your favorite sports team, ATS, whatever you need, but right now, I want everyone reading to promise themselves they'll survive, no matter what. Really, I'm passionate about this because I hate, HATE, to see good, innocent people get hurt and I also HATE that society wants to mitigate lawful, honorable, agressive defense. If I'm not mistaken, this entire forum promotes the idea that we're not supposed to be sheep, that we're not supposed to simply swallow what we're told. If you're on this forum, you can think for yourself (I hope). So really...everybody go look in a mirror and choose, right now, that you WILL NOT LIE DOWN, you WILL NOT GIVE UP, ever.

I'm going to post caveat #4 in a separate post as I'm running out of characters (not character)...

uhm what is up with these long explanations?

Krav Maga is all you need to know buddy

Learn it...but hopefully you won't have to use it.

Krav Maga.


Find a location near you that teaches Krav Maga and I promise you that once you've taken the course you'll have a much much greater chance of walking away with your life should some jerk come at you with a knife, gun, or whatever else you can think of.


www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...


And you can find many more videos on Krav Maga by searching for it on youtube.

Moving forward...
4.) Please, please, please do not adopt a set of tactics as some previous posts are mentioning. I've read through them, and some of them are completely right...but here's the problem: in a deadly force situation (and I've been in them), especially if you're not trained in the arts, you'll experience a very curious state of mind. That is, the blood in your veins will shunt to your core to protect your vitals organs and your brain. You will experience tunnel vision; you will lose 70% of your hearing, you will lose most of your manual dexterity; you will lose everything in liquid memory; you will simply and completely lock up. Another term for this state of being is "fight or flight"...however, it should really be termed "fight, flight, or freeze". Unfortunately, most people freeze. There are uncountable accounts of cops (like me) who have been in gun or knife fights and don't remember the color of the jacket that the bad guy was wearing. In training, they taught us that when there's a lull in the fight, reload, no matter what, because you will not be able to remember how many rounds (bullets) you've expended. So, my point is that if professionals succumb to this sort of stress reaction, what's the average civillian to do? This is a nice segue to...
5.) THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE...
If it ever goes down (and I pray it never does)...here's what you really need to know: FIGHT. That's the bottom line (and the penultimate caveat). Poke eyes, bite ears, kick groins, utilize anything you can as a weapon...but FIGHT. Think about it; some bad guy wants your money. He (she) doesn't want to end up hurt because, last I checked, the health insurance plan for highwaymen (bad guys) sucks. That is, they don't want trouble...they picked you, most likely, because they think you're easy. If they don't want trouble, then that's exactly what you MUST give them. Again, FIGHT, make noise, scream like a lunatic, get all wild-eyed, bite a nose off, close the distance and throw a wicked head butt. The more violent you get, the quicker it's over. But, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, give up. You'd be amazed at what you can do in a deadly force situation.
6.) I've responded to calls and seen people who were dead, but didn't have to be. I want all, ALL, of my ATS friends to be alive tomorrow...incidentally, "ATS friends" means anyone reading this. I don't care if it's 2012, or WWIII, or alien invasion, or anything else, you have a duty to those who love you to live. Someone attacks you with a knife or fists or whatever else, you drive on, you fight through, you do everything in your power to survive. Promise me this...do NOT bleed out on a street corner, wishing you had fought harder.

Here is something almost anybody can do. When you are going into an area that frightens you, be sure to be carrying a little Bic type lighter in your hand. If you are grabbed by surprise especially from behind, you may be able to use it to surprise and break the grip of someone holding you. Then scream and run.

I've worked in security for over twenty years and started studying martial arts 45 years ago. Screaming alone will probably take care of 80% of the problems that most people are likely to run into. Being cautious and observant will take care of all but maybe 1% of all other situations, at least in civvy street. A trick like a surprise Bic is for the 1% of situations where it's happening to you before you see it coming.

The above advice does not apply to special situations, marital strife, attacks by gangs, military or police stuff. It's meant for nervous people who are afraid of casual attacks by punks.

knives suck.
Learning a martial art, getting fit, krav maga, wing chun are all good ideas, as is some of the philosophy within, don't give up if it comes down to it.
The best advice is to run, but if you want to, learning anti-knife cqb is best done by a martial arts trainer, there will be some in your area I'm sure.
Good luck with it.

Well the first option and the best of course, is run. But unfortunately, it's not always that easy.

I would recommend keeping a good distance between you and your attacker, because this isn't like blunt weapons or fists that aren't very effective at close range, a knife will still cut you up. Even if the guy hasn't pulled a knife on you but is acting threatening, still keep him about 4 to 5 feet away. You want to be able to see every part of his body and if he does pull a blade, you want to be able to clock it straight away.

Also, very important, in a confrontation, be aware of every single angle, because it's a huge mistake if you've got multiple attackers and you get tangled up with one guy, it leaves you wide open to anything they've got.

Lol I also live in London so I know exactly how you feel and what you're up against. I hope this information helps you about it, but more importantly, I hope you never have to use it.

AFAIK, knife attacks aren't usually so random.

Most of the stories we read about in the newspapers today mention some sort of altercation between youths, so your best defence is to stay out of other people's business and not to hang around with street scum.

I have to say, there is clearly an agenda in the media at the moment to highlight any and every single newspiece about knife crime. I feel it's to scare and divide people even further and to perpetuate the idea that all young working class, or underclass, people are ruthless thugs.

Knife-crime 'hoodies' seems to be the new thing to be scared of this year, Muslims are sooooooo 2005.

[edit on 8-7-2008 by VelvetSplash]

reply to post by VelvetSplash

I agree and I'll go a step further and tell you the most secret and potent martial arts weapon in the entire martial arts arsenal. It took me thirty years to learn about this and since I found out about it, I've used it over and over to devastating effect. What is it? A friendly smile. It will disarm just about anybody.

A message to older people frightened of young people. Smile, and greet them as friends no matter how weird they look. A smile is the greeting that the whole world is looking for, young and old. It's the atomic bomb of the martial arts.

I live in London, grew up in London, on an Estate in Hackney, anyone knowing London will know what hole it is, and yet luckily I've never been attacked or mugged yet. Street smarts goes a long way to staying safe.

The area I live now isn't the greatest ever, but getting caught with a weapon is not worth it. I personally keep a parker ink pen in my pocket at all times, just for an emergency. It would be not considered an offensive weapon, but is definately lethal, if used to stab the right area.

I like the idea of carrying some ground pepper (ninja style) i will look into some way of carrying and deploying it safely.


Peace...

Great advice Yeats23, running would be number one option like I said before in any situation I could, but the advice on using something wrapped around my hand is new to me and I could imagine it to be quite effective (and thanks to the other posters who suggested it). I may take a martial arts as by the sounds of things as it generally makes you more aware and better to read and react to peoples body movements.

So far this thread has has some fantastic advice, and once the thread starts to cool down a little I'm going to move the best bits of advice into my inital post for others to read on the first page, thanks guys!

[edit on 8-7-2008 by -Klaus-]

My advice;

Learn Tai Chi. It doesn't matter about your level of fitness, you'll benefit, both in awareness and confidence, and an ability to look after yourself.

Never carry a wallet in your back pocket. Keep everything valuable out of site.

Never, EVER walk through a city with any form of walkman/ipod/mp3 player running.

Never approach a group, and avoid confrontations at all times.

If you think someone is going to attack you, run. Running is your primary form of self defence. Zig-zagging prevents people getting hold of you. Head for a place where there are more people - they may not help you but the chances of someone doing something stupid in a crowded place are less than if they get you alone somewhere (although sadly thats not always the case)

If you can afford it, buy a 50cc scooter or a car. No ones going to stab you as you go past them at 30mph.

Its simple stuff, but people forget it.

Are you the fishman that snuck into Daniels flat and got some good news?
He wants his knife back.

my advise would be just to run as fast as you can , this has saved my butt a few times here in denmark, never against a knife tho( our knifing's started about 1 year ago with mass media coverge) and now our government wants to put cam's up all over the place like london



[edit on 8-7-2008 by Kalomar]