The New Space Race:China vs United States

Originally posted by antar
Well looks like China got ahead of us, wonder if some or much of our own NASA funding was from China and they just by-passed us and went for the Gold?

China ahead of the US in space? Did I read that right? If so, what are you basing that on?

Originally posted by jra

Originally posted by antar
Well looks like China got ahead of us, wonder if some or much of our own NASA funding was from China and they just by-passed us and went for the Gold?

China ahead of the US in space? Did I read that right? If so, what are you basing that on?

Well....our best and brightest are on their soil, creating a device that the US currently does not have (publicly, anyway...but that is for a whole nuther discussion), using Chinese dollars.

I would say that bodes fairly well.

Granted, publicly there has not been much hope for China. They are like the awkward automaton. Never quite able to get it right, always making a key mistake to show them to be....the awkward automaton (that is the only way i can describe it).

But given the above, combined with China's nearly complete lack of ethical standards, one can only assume that they have some level of capability that would definitely surprise you.

You don't think that what you know about China is all there is to know? Since when has China EVER been honest and forthcoming?

reply to post by jra


Hi jra, read back in the thread at what some of the people who know a heck of alot more than me said on the subject, what do you know that would lead me to think otherwise? I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Originally posted by jra
China ahead of the US in space? Did I read that right? If so, what are you basing that on?

Buzz Aldrin China Moon

Surely you can believe Buzz, after all he told you he went to the moon and you take his word for it

revver.com...

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Well....our best and brightest are on their soil, creating a device that the US currently does not have (publicly, anyway...but that is for a whole nuther discussion), using Chinese dollars.

My problem is this...

Buzz is senior scientific adviser on ANTI GRAVITY research. What the BLEEP does he know about anti gravity that he can be a science expert in that field?

There is a missing link here....

As to why in China, maybe they are there because they don't have to worry about environmental concerns or snooping conspiracy nuts

reply to post by antar


I've read through the thread and I still don't see anything that leads me to believe that China is ahead of the US in spaceflight or that there is even a "race" between the US and China. While they may be the third country to independently put people into space, which is quite an accomplishment, but they've only had three manned spaceflights in total. They still have a lot to do to catch up to Russia and the US.

They do have some plans for going to the Moon, but so does just about every other space agency. Only time will tell if anyone is able to make those plans happen.

reply to post by jra


You guys do realise that the thread was presented in 1998 right?

And the OP, jkrog (RIP) has passed away?

reply to post by OzWeatherman

Yes we do realize that Jkrogo8 has passed away... that is why the new launch from China was mentioned here, to revive his memory

And your killer emu scares my ferrets

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
reply to post by jra

 

You guys do realise that the thread was presented in 1998 right?

And the OP, jkrog (RIP) has passed away?

Is there something wrong with that?

When i see this thread pop up, i smile. I have seen a few other of his threads pop up on MyATS. Each time i smile.

The great advantage that China has over the US in regards to a space race is of course MONEY!!

China has all the money...the US has all the debts and is bankrupt.

China has the worlds biggest manufacturing base...the US has the worlds fastest declining manufacturing base.

Space technology as we know it is now 50 yrs old....to coin a phrase " it's not rocket science anymore".

The R&D was all done years ago, all that remains is the financial ability to engage in space oriented manufacturing.

The first manned base on the moon will be Chinese, the US dropped the ball in the 70's to concentrate on global hegemony.

The US will keep falling behind in space because even as we speak it is investing trillions in weaponry for global hegemony, now if you could get them to divert this ridiculous expenditure towards a civil space program....

Cosmic...

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Actually that would be 2008 not 1998.

And yes we know JKrog has moved to another place of existence.

What is this ageist nonsense anyway, do you think that because a thread is 2 yrs old that its no longer relative?

Most if not all of the best threads are in the archives, they should be read and revived whenever possible.

The arrogance of youth will turn to humility upon the discovery that others have made this journey before you.

Use the search button, read the archives, you will be amazed.

Cosmic...

Good post OP.

"Helium-3 is considered as a long-term, stable, safe, clean and cheap material for human beings to get nuclear energy through controllable nuclear fusion experiments," Ziyuan added. "If we human beings can finally use such energy material to generate electricity, then China might need 10 tons of helium-3 every year and in the world, about 100 tons of helium-3 will be needed every year."

That makes me think of a few things:

1. There was a post on here recently comparing the backgrounds of the current Chinese leadership with the USA (Bush I think) government. In a nutshell, the Chinese leadership were heavily weighted towards not just engineering but also power generation, chemistry, advanced mineral, geological and electronics sciences...whilst the USA appeared largely lead by legal and financial bods.

2. China's recent ban on exports on their (current) monopoly (c. 90-95% of currently operational mines) of rare earth metals/minerals. These are not only vital to the manufacture of many electronics and mobile computing/communications equipment, but also best in class motors, generators, batteries...the kind of stuff that a nation wanting large scale use of electric cars/vehicles would need. Besides being worrying for a vast array of western* electronics companies and whole economies (Japan*, USA, European tech' co's) it struck me that this may also be an indication of their intent/realisation about the direction they want to direct their internal market/growth (i.e. into their next leadership cycle starting 2012) and development.

So perhaps they have ring-fenced their rare earth resources not simply, or primarily as a weapon, or a short term blow to their competitors? Perhaps, which I understand is characteristic, they are looking at a longer term plan? They could steal a considerable lead and obtain the most auspicious position from which to fulfil the construction of a (perhaps the world's first) next generation (electric) transport (and weaponry) infrastructure, whilst the west takes a few years to organise (and/or fight over) alternative sources of rare earth metals.

China has oodles of coal in house to help push forward design of infrastructure designed for an emphasis on electrical power, is still in the early stages of (re)building much of it's core/urban infrastructure, massive copper mines secured all over the globe etc...and I have to say, if the weights stated in the article for Helium 3 are accurate, I certainly wouldn't put it past them to get that off the moon. I appreciate they may have to do vast processing on the moon to extract those weights?

3. What ramifications, if any, could there be for earth of altering the mass or balance of the moon via mining?

4. Could this be where China begins/attempts to exert their influence in terms of debt ownership, and perhaps the current issues with Iran and Pakistan** (**who China helped develop/test nukes with I think? - Wonder how those allied tankers have all been located so well?) to clear a path for their lunar/terrestrial development plans whilst twisting the arms of western powers struggling to hold onto middle eastern oil supply?

reply to post by Cosmic4life

Space technology as we know it is now 50 yrs old....to coin a phrase " it's not rocket science anymore".

Reminds me of that documentary made recently (featuring Neil Armstrong as I recall) which looked at how NASA were scouring specialist junk yards, and salvage dealers who trade in and stock much of THEIR old space gear (e.g. from the Apollo missions) in an effort to regain/retain knowledge, a detailed physical engineering knowledge, that they had apparently failed to secure prior to their dismantling and selling off of many key pieces of machinery.

i.e. indicating that too much reliance had been placed on assumptions, paper records and third parties (much of which appears to have failed) to ensure that ALL necessary data about previous designs and experiments would be secured and passed down to future generations.

It made me wonder whether, whilst the theory, computer and manufacturing processes have advanced by 50 years, what the NASA bods were trying to say was something about how very difficult it remains to get some of the components, motors, balances and weights just right for an earth/moon shot? They seemed especially interested in rocket motors and fuelling pumps no longer used I think?

There is no difference between the Chinese space program and their military. The main reasons for all the effort are military and political.

Military because they wish to have the ability to place US control of earths orbit at risk. Political because the successes with the manned space program lend legitimacy to a repressive government. Much like the old soviet union.

The difference is China isn't going to go broke in the process.

reply to post by curioustype


Excellent point. Corporate knowledge is a funny thing. People don't realise how much of the knowledge of companies has a tendency to reside only in individuals heads and how much particular designs are a product of their time.

Thats why they cant just knock up a new Saturn V. You may have the installation drawings and the bill of materials but if all the parts are 40 years obsolete you have to design new ones. Maybe the ICD is gone, maybe it wasn't defined and the author has died?

At some point if you mothball a capability it becomes lost and you will have wasted all the non recurring expenditure that went into it. Use it, or maintain it, or lose it.

LOL.
People will say anything to spite the USA, hop off our nuts.
Next thing you know they'll say the Taliban has reached Gliese 581 G.

I agree with a lot of people on this thread, I believe that nations should come together in order to discover the materials on the moon, especially if they can be used in a very efficient way of generating energy. I however also think that nations should not take this as an opportunity to exploit the fuel and use it as an excuse for wars as crude oil on earth has become, there should be a committee or a union set up between the USA, China and Russia, and come to an agreement about what amount of the fuel each nation should receive, in order to prevent conflict between them, besides if the predicted amounts of the fuel on the moon are true, then surely there will be more than enough for every country for many years, so conflicts would be pointless. Finally, I also believe that a huge consideration of the impact on the moon itself that extracting so much material from it may have, and if the risks outweigh the possibility of a long lasting fuel source. We have damaged our planet enough, we really shouldn't start damaging other planetary objects if we can help it.

All this is assuming that the people who already live on the Moon do not object to some foreigner trying to muscle-in on "their patch".

It is wonderful how we just assume things are there for the taking, but looking at photos taken of asteroids, there appears to be mining operations already in progress. I wonder who could be doing that?

Now.. would you allow someone to come in and take what you consider your own?

July 6, 2022

Those in the U.S. Government who have not been compromised by CHINA, are appropriately concerned about that country's motivations beyond Earth's atmosphere.

The Head of NASA, to a German Newspaper, during an interview this past weekend.

NASA chief Bill Nelson told Bild on Saturday, translated from German: "We must be very concerned that China is landing on the moon and saying: 'It's ours now and you stay out.'"

Source: www.newsweek.com...

Interestingly, very few mainstream media reported Director Nelson's comments, but virtually EVERY U.S. mainstream media outlet is reporting (in a supportive way), China stating that Nelson is totally wrong about China's ambitions.

It's like almost every U.S. big news outlet is at least partially OWNED by China.