9/11 Aircraft Flight Blackboxes?

Originally posted by Zaphod58
In the only previous accidental crash of a 767, the flight data recorder was destroyed in a 1991 Lauda Air plunge into the Thailand jungle, but the cockpit voice recorder provided a vital clue.

www.nydailynews.com...

So in all 767 crashes only 1 FDR was destroyed BUT THE VOICE RECORDER SURVIVED. Isn't that funny?

So in all 767 crashes only 1 FDR was destroyed BUT THE VOICE RECORDER SURVIVED. Isn't that funny?

Whats funny about it? Every crash is different and sometimes one
box will survive while the other is damaged - Flight 93 both recorders
survived because plane hit soft ground in reclaimed strip mine.
At Pentagon FDR survived, but CVR tape was damaged. The CVR
recorder was subject to intense fire - FBI agents who recovered it
didn't even recognize it as flight recorder it was so battered and burned.
All it takes is small breach in shell to let in fire and tape is ruined.

Originally posted by thedman
All it takes is small breach in shell to let in fire and tape is ruined.

Tape, What tape? The FDR and voice recorders are digital.

reply to post by ULTIMA1


Did you even read that quote? IN THE ONLY PREVIOUS ACCIDENTAL CRASH OF A 767. Where are you getting "in all the previous crashes"? Do you realize that there have only been 9 accidents EVER involving 767s? Here's a record of them.

July 23, 1983 Air Canada flight 183, 767-233. Departed with insufficient fuel, landed on a closed airstrip with both engines out.

May 26, 1991 Lauda Air flight 004, 767-3Z9ER. Thrust reverser on #1 engine deployed in flight tearing the plane apart. (This is the flight that had the destroyed FDR)

April 06, 1993 TACA flight 510, 767-2S1. Touched down 3,500 feet down a wet runway. Ran off the left side, into houses.

November 23, 1996 Egypt Air flight 961, 767-260ER. Hijacking. Hijackers ordered the aircraft to fly beyond the maximum fuel range, crashed into the ocean.

October 31, 1999 Egypt Air flight 990, 767-366ER. Undetermined upset from flight level 330 to flight level 191 in 36 seconds. Aircraft broke up and impacted the ocean. (Copilot believed to have caused the accident deliberately.)

February 23, 2000 Egypt Air flight 880, 767-366ER. Right engine impacted runway during landing attempt in a thunderstorm. Plane ran off the runway.

September 11, 2001 American Airlines flight 11, 767-223ER. Impacted the North Tower.

September 11, 2001 United Airlines flight 175, 767-222. Impacted the South Tower.

April 15, 2002 Air China flight 129, 767-2J6ER. Impacted terrain on final approach into Pusan Korea.

So out of 9 accidents involving 767s, 5 caused the aircraft to be totally destroyed. The two aircraft lost on 9/11 DOUBLED the total number of destroyed 767s in accidents. Of the 5 destroyed 2 were accidents. So we're looking at about half the total black boxes being destroyed. The CVR of the Lauda aircraft was found intact. Of the 5 that were destroyed, four of them had several thousand tons of concrete and steel dropped on them. I don't care what kind of standards they are required to withstand. Dropping two massive buildings on them is going to destroy them no matter how you look at it.

[edit on 6/23/2008 by Zaphod58]

reply to post by ULTIMA1


NOW they are digital. That's a very recent development however. Many aircraft out there still use the foil and tape black boxes. Solid State recorders only became feasable in 1990. The 2 hour recorders only began hitting the market in 1995. The FAA mandated that all aircraft switch to a 2 hour digital recorder in MARCH 2008, and THAT won't affect any aircraft currently flying. The FAA mandate only affects aircraft built after March 7, 2010. It also must record 9-11 minutes without main power. That means that almost all aircraft built before the 1990-1995 window are still using tape in their original recorders.

[edit on 6/23/2008 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by thedman
Try reading the new book FIREFIGHT - goes into detail about the
impact of Flight 77 into the building and the resulting destruction
and intense fires which followed.

Well thats very funny according to my information the systems are almost indestructible.

911research.wtc7.net...

As a matter of fact, ABC news reported on 9-13-2001 that “Although investigators look for an entire black box, sometimes the only parts of the device that survive are the recorder’s crash-survivable memory units (CSMU). The CSMU is almost indestructible. [A former NTSB source told us that only a direct hit from a nuclear blast can destroy it] ABC also said that “it is housed within a stainless-steel shell that contains titanium or aluminum and a high-temperature insulation of dry silica material.”

The CSMU is almost indestructible. [A former NTSB source told us that only a direct hit from a nuclear blast can destroy it] ABC also said that “it is housed within a stainless-steel shell that contains titanium or aluminum and a high-temperature insulation of dry silica material.”

Did the government test this behind our backs? How do they know that the box will only break under a nuclear attack.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
I don't care what kind of standards they are required to withstand. Dropping two massive buildings on them is going to destroy them no matter how you look at it.

Also funny is how the black boxes at the Pentagon survived the fire and collaspe and just happened to be found at the hole caused by the plane BUT NO APU, OR ACTUATORS FROM THE TIAL OR THE TUNGSTEN COUNTERWEIGHTS.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Also funny is how the black boxes at the Pentagon survived the fire and collaspe and just happened to be found at the hole caused by the plane BUT NO APU, OR ACTUATORS FROM THE TIAL OR THE TUNGSTEN COUNTERWEIGHTS.

Is there another place that the black boxes from AA77 would be more likely to be found other than at the site of the crash?

I've seen no evidence or official statements suggesting that those other components were not recovered - lots of plane parts were collected. What is interesting is that the NTSB state they did download (IE copy) the contents of the CVR before it was turned over to the FBI to be analysed at their forensic audio laboratory. Did they say there was nothing on it or was it more like 'nothing of significance'? Maybe one of these years we'll find out.

Originally posted by Pilgrum
Is there another place that the black boxes from AA77 would be more likely to be found other than at the site of the crash?

Its just funnmy that they happened to find them right at the hole and not inside the building as most od the debris was found inside.

What are the odds of finding themn right at the hole but nothing else of the tail?

911research.wtc7.net...

A source close to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) who asked to remain anonymous when asked about the " ongoing [black box] investigation, " told us that "the NTSB never closely examined the cockpit voice recorders (CVRs) and flight data recorders (FDRs) recovered from American Flight 77 which hit the Pentagon, and United flight 93 which crashed in Pennsylvania. " This, while the FBI has continued to quietly dodge vexing questions related to its prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks and how the Bureau’s widely-reported inept and mishandled information protocol cost so many lives.

The source added that “the [CVR and FDR] tapes were sequestered by the FBI and quickly taken to its Quantico, Virginia labs where analysis was conducted solely under the Bureau’s influence in order to maintain complete control.” However, according to the individual with knowledge of the investigation, “there were a few NTSB officials allowed to observe, but their influence on the probe and tape inspection was minimal at best.”

We also talked to Michael Thompson, chief engineer in the CVR/FDR division of Allied Signal-Honeywell Corporation in Redmond, Washington -- according to his counsel, Mark Larson.

We asked Thompson if he was the person in charge of flight data recovery in the 9/11 investigation, since Honeywell manufactured the data recorders in operation on all four Boeing jets involved in the September 11 crashes. “I cannot answer that under advice from legal counsel,” he said.

Thanks to everyone for contributing so far, i think this has been a very informative discussion and of course some of us will disagree on some points! But we are here to find the truth so keep up the good work!

Am i right in thinking that the firefighter i mentioned was actually impersonating a firefighter when he gave his reports or have i got my wires crossed somewhere?

Was any information from the pentagon plane black box ever released?
I Can believe that the impact of a plane crash and the subsequent collapse of two of the largest buildings in the states onto them could easily destroy the black boxes as im sure they were never designed with this in mind!

Can anyone find the actual specifications for the black boxes in the 767's?
Thanks
Dskys

reply to post by Dskys


There is no type specific black box. It could be either solid state, or it could be foil. Some airlines are switching to solid state, others are staying with foil. It depends on how much money they want to spend on it.

Here is a general black box spec and history for you.

www.l-3ar.com...

reply to post by ULTIMA1

Its just funnmy that they happened to find them right at the hole and not inside the building as most od the debris was found inside.

What are the odds of finding themn right at the hole but nothing else of the tail?

No, the funny part is you choosing to believe the Arlington County spokesperson (who probably never stepped foot in the Pentagon) over the firefighters that actually found the black boxes in the C-ring of the Pentagon.

As they trudged through the smoky darkness in the Pentagon's C Ring shortly before 4 a.m. Friday,
Fairfax County firefighters Carlton Burkhammer and Brian Moravitz scanned the debris with their
helmet lights, still hopeful of finding someone alive. Moments after spotting a chair from the cockpit of
American Airlines Flight 77, their beams flashed on two charred black boxes.
Burkhammer and Moravitz glanced at each other through steamy plastic face shields and respirators. "Is
that what we think it is?" Burkhammer asked.
They radioed for federal investigators, who confirmed the discovery of the plane's voice and data
recorder systems -- the "black boxes." Source

Originally posted by Pilgrum
It comes down to trying to find 4 of these in a million tonnes of rubble, assuming they weren't pulverised in the collapse that is. But it's still unusual for them to not survive as they're designed to do just that and they're literally bullet-proof.

Amazing - they could not locate some of the black boxes in all that rubble, but had no problems finding Mohamed Atta's passport.

Those who still think Atta was one of the 19 who planned 911 from some cave, will be interested to learn of Government records in Florida, which reveal that Mohamed Atta was the President of a company in Orlando with a business partner whose web of dummy shell companies appear characteristic of the type used in terrorist financing and illicit money laundering.

Duncan

Originally posted by Boone 870
No, the funny part is you choosing to believe the Arlington County spokesperson (who probably never stepped foot in the Pentagon) over the firefighters that actually found the black boxes in the C-ring of the Pentagon

I am not talking about believing anyone, i am talking about believeing the evidence or LACK of it.

Please show me where they also found tha parts of the tail that would have survived when the found the black boxes. As stated the biggest evidence against the official story is the lack of evidence that supports it.

[edit on 25-6-2008 by ULTIMA1]