perpetual motion?

can someone please explain this to me in an easily understandable way? why aren't there perpetual motion machines? or are there, that I'm just unaware of?

I've googled defintions of p.m and I just don't really get it all that well.

how would one go about
creating and utilizing a p.m craft/machine etc.? what are perpetual motion's ups and downs?

A perpetual motion device (aka perpetuum mobile) is more of a concept than it is actually possible (as far as we know). The idea is to have some kind of system being in motion, but keeping all it's energy - so that it never ends. Thus it would be perpetual.

A really simple example would be of a battery connected to a dynamo, in such a way that the battery runs the dynamo and in turn the dynamo creates electricity for the battery.

The problem is that when energy is transformed, a small bit of it is lost. In this case, the dynamo would get warm; that would be a direct result of the motion created by the electricity. So first the energy is electricity, then it becomes motion, and finally a small part becomes heat before the rest turns to electricity again.

Even if you were to make a system that holds it energy, I doubt you could do more with it than just to stare at it Talking about staring, thare have been an incredible amount of attempts at making the perfect perpetuum mobile, see here on youtube

there is a guy in France who has a massive wheel with different moving weights on it, claims his is perpetual motion.

another guy has his small machine with pendulums and a fist sized ball bearing that rolls on a small track circular around the machine.

according to scientists its not possible because it defis the 2nd law of thermodynamics

there are actually 2 types of perpetual motion machines.

1) Self Starting

2) non-Self Starting

There is debate as to whether a non-self starting PM machine is actually perpetual motion, as well as an argument that a PM machine should keep running whether it is on earth or in space. This argument came about when people started making gravity PM machines, or overbalance wheels. These machines are self starting, self sustaining, but relies on gravity for it's energy.

By the strictest sense, PM isn't possible YET, but quantum mechanics can possibly show proof that it IS possible.

EDIT: Add link for Overbalance Wheel

[edit on 7-6-2008 by Earthscum]

Quantum physics being an answer to losing energy through friction suddenly seems very likely! See this thread. Apparently, it is quite feasible to make machinery that moves with just a fraction of the friction we normally get :]

Other than I said in my post, wikipedia says that a perpetuum mobile is supposed to create more energy than it consumes. I'm not sure how that should be interpreted, but in any case, if there were some way to combine the claimed 'Gravity PM' with the new less-to-zero-friction technology... would it create more energy than it consumes? If so.. Well you know in what hyperoptimistic manner I'm talking.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by scraze]

Originally posted by scraze
Quantum physics being an answer to losing energy through friction suddenly seems very likely! See this thread. Apparently, it is quite feasible to make machinery that moves with just a fraction of the friction we normally get :]

Other than I said in my post, wikipedia says that a perpetuum mobile is supposed to create more energy than it consumes. I'm not sure how that should be interpreted, but in any case, if there were some way to combine the claimed 'Gravity PM' with the new less-to-zero-friction technology... would it create more energy than it consumes? If so.. Well you know in what hyperoptimistic manner I'm talking.

[edit on 7-6-2008 by scraze]

Well it probably says that on wikipedia, because a machine that simply moves by inertia perpetually is a phenomenally dull idea. You could, for instance, spin a flywheel in microgravity in a perfect vaccuum. There's nothing theoretically preventing it from moving forever, but it doesn't achieve anything.

Perpetual motion, as we tend to talk about here on ATS implies something that will generate more energy than it uses, so that it can run itself forever as well as an external load. This is, as currently understood, an impossibility. Hasn't kept thousands of people from claiming to have achieved it over the centuries, but it's never panned out.

I'm going to go out and say that the people who claim it are probably all either doing it to get money or attention, or to try and fool people, or just for fun. Kind of like internet trolls.

Perpetual motion is possible. It does not require quantum physics. What it requires is a more thorough understanding of physics and a LOT of time/money for the research.

The term is misleading, though, and I prefer to use 'recyclable energy' instead. Perpetual means with no end, so technically a perpetual motion machine would run forever. This is impossible due to wear and tear on components and the actions of the elements (weather, humidity, temperature changes, etc.). As previously mentioned, the term also does not imply the output of energy, simply the ongoing operation of such a machine.

The term 'perpetual motion' has been used in common usage to mean a mechanism which produces enough energy to continue its operation as well as provide some power as an output, however. In that sense, I know of no such machine that has actually been prototyped and successfully patented. The US patent office received so many patents for such devices that did not work that they now will not consider a patent for any mechanism that produces energy without energy input unless the application is accompanied by a working prototype. So far, that has effectively stopped the onslaught of such patent applications.

There are several machines in operation, but thus far all of them have failed to gain any momentum toward manufacture and distribution. This alone causes me to be skeptical of any such claim. So instead of trying to find one that someone else has created, I have worked my entire life towards designing one of my own. You might call it a lifetime quest. At this time, I have plans for one that I cannot afford to build. This device is purely mechanical and uses gravity to produce rotating motion. It is also extremely heavy and short-lived due to a lack of long-life bearings in the configuration I need. A large one (to power a small town) would run a few hours before the bearings would need to be changed out, whereas the prototype (as drawn) would power a small shop or supplement a home and would last a few weeks at constant operation before needing new bearings.

I am currently working on one that uses electro-chemical reactions to produce power, sort of a perpetual battery. The prototype is at about 80% complete and hopefully will be finished this summer.

There have been others, but all of them have had some weakness that made me consider it impractical under my circumstances. I do not publish any information on my projects, nor do I discuss their details with any but a precious few trusted friends (many of whom tolerate my 'insanity' out of friendship). In any case, I will not divulge details here, so don't bother asking. You can also choose not to believe I have anything; it matters not to me. I am not sure if I will ever publish any information or even apply for a patent on any of these. I seriously consider simply powering my place and letting it go at that.

In any case, back on topic, if you really want to have a free-energy/over-unity/zero-point/perpetual-motion mechanism, you'll have to start with a good physics book and a good imagination. So far, anyone who has one isn't talking. The ones you hear are usually, in my experience, hustlers looking for suckers to separate from their $$$.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by scraze
A perpetual motion device (aka perpetuum mobile) is more of a concept than it is actually possible (as far as we know). The idea is to have some kind of system being in motion, but keeping all it's energy - so that it never ends. Thus it would be perpetual.

Somehow the planets keep going round and round every year, and our Solar system keeps sailing through the Galaxies.

The Sun shines every day and although not perpetual, id say 10 billion years is a pretty good stretch.

Peace

Originally posted by TheRedneck
There have been others, but all of them have had some weakness that made me consider it impractical under my circumstances. I do not publish any information on my projects, nor do I discuss their details with any but a precious few trusted friends (many of whom tolerate my 'insanity' out of friendship). In any case, I will not divulge details here, so don't bother asking. You can also choose not to believe I have anything; it matters not to me. I am not sure if I will ever publish any information or even apply for a patent on any of these. I seriously consider simply powering my place and letting it go at that.

I hear ya on that... I have an electric motor that I've been wanting to build for about 2 or more years, but never had the funds to do it. Just like you, though, I can't say anything about it. I can say, however, that if my motor works, it should be able to power itself using a normal alternator, with enough excess energy to do mechanical work. My problem is effective switching with advance/retard function. Basically, I CAN say that if I ever build this thing, my plans are to be able to use it for automotive use specifically. My intentions are to be able to keep auto makers in biz... I don't want to cut anyone out, but rather incorporate it into the industry as a whole.

That's all IF it works, lol... I'm so sick of calculating coil efficiency vs. heat loss vs. gauss vs. blah blah blah.

One note, back on topic, is that there is actually a distinction between PERPETUAL MOTION (which has been proven, and many models exist) and OVERUNITY. Perpetual motion is self sustaining, but is kind of gray beyond that point. It could cover 'overunity', but I believe alot of people like to make a definite distinction, something like "Overunity is self powering, producing an abundance of energy" whereas "Perpetual motion is self powering, with no noticable excess of energy exerted"... but it brings up the point that a perpetual motion machine has to overcome frictional losses, thus it can be considered an overunity device. Be careful in duscussions outside of this thread. If you use any gravity-based machine as reference for perpetual motion, you could be opening up an onslaught of arguments. This is the 'gray area'.

AllIsOne (ATS user) claims to have solved the perpetual motion issue. He actually gives credit to a guy in a video (some canadian guy). Look at his threads...its the one dealing with gravity.

The method's he describes seem somewhat logical. but, according to the logic he uses, they require the earths magnetosphere to maintain the energy levels.

I keep thinking about that "Flobots" song...."I can keep rhythm with no metronome.."

reply to post by Earthscum
Ew, magnetic formulas... I dabble a bit in robotics as well, so I am always having to design actuators (solenoids) for special apps. So I know exactly what you are talking about. Whoever came up with those formulas was high on something.

TheRedneck

reply to post by agent violet


hey nice a thread to post an idea i came up with in bed last night about a perpetual motion machine.

it consists of two seperate but connected,maleable low friction bags placed face to face.who are both suspended in the air upon a horizontal pole or surface .the important thing is the bags must be superfluid proof,ie not allowing a superfluid to pass through it.

one must understand the nature of a super fluid
en.wikipedia.org...

the property of the superfluid i am interested in is how it has no friction thus it can defy gravity and flow upwards,as can be seen by this video
www.youtube.com...

thus when a superfluid cannot permeate its container in this case a bag it will flow upwards or sideways.and thus into bag number one into bag number two.
this will cause the other bag to fill up with the superfluid and when the right threshold of balance is reached between bag one and two it will cause a tipping in the balance of the two bags,thus motion as see-saw like affect.

perpetual motion in a moving mechanical weighing scales esk way..

this can be further engineered to create rotation with the right system of suspension.if you can imagine it.i can but im having trouble describing my thoughts so ile leave it there!.

the worlds first perpetual motion device?,if you see it elsewhere know its been stolen from me!.i really should patent it but ive got a million ideas of this ilk floating about!



[edit on 13-9-2008 by welivefortheson]

Well there's that 2nd law of thermodynamics and all, but theoretically if you were to create a microcosm of the universe and IF it's perception of time were able to be sped up infinitely relative to ours, then theoretically we could extract an infinite amount of energy from it.

So it would break no laws of physics, yet essentially would be a PMM.

Now to finish figuring out how the universe works so we can recreate it in a lab... hmmmm.