Subterranean Worlds

I disagree with the theory that there can be or is an advanced civilization below ground, simply out of the reason that sooner or later, it would be found. What about sonar, oil drilling, ore drilling and all? Secondly, if we assume that the civilization is completely enclosed, what would they do in case of emergency? Also, wouldn't they need new material all the time, or at least, at some points in time?

However, I am open to the possibility that there can be creatures of sorts down "there", living in caves. Can it be possible that entire ecosystems have evolved underground, cut off from the topside world for thousands of years?

all I can think of when I look at this pic is "pop, pop, pop"

If there is a civlization it would most likely be advanced. Look what we are doing with our technology today. Building sustainable complexes underground. Check out the huge salt mines in the US that are a constant 80+ degrees year round. Wasn't there an entire underground city in England that was for sale a while back with streets etc.? Ever notice UFO sightings increase with earthquakes and volcanic activity. They're just vacating for a while.

It could also be very very deep* and have no contact with the surface-such a society would be virtually impossible to detect.

Depends on how much heat and pressure they or their technology could take.

Originally posted by Karras
I disagree with the theory that there can be or is an advanced civilization below ground, simply out of the reason that sooner or later, it would be found. What about sonar, oil drilling, ore drilling and all? Secondly, if we assume that the civilization is completely enclosed, what would they do in case of emergency? Also, wouldn't they need new material all the time, or at least, at some points in time?

However, I am open to the possibility that there can be creatures of sorts down "there", living in caves. Can it be possible that entire ecosystems have evolved underground, cut off from the topside world for thousands of years?

If not an advanced civilization then certainly SOME type of creatures I would guess.

But the pretense of the majority is that only the surface of earth is relevant.

reply to post by seagrass


Indeed, some people have made subterranean homes for themselves in our times.

From that we could make a guess that this has been going on since a long time.

Originally posted by 1-Cent
Theres not really any food down there though? Theres no usable soil to make into farmland, theres not any significant fish populations of large fish, theres no large animals at all... How would a decent sized human population survive on bats, mice and rats, all of which carry deadly diseases?

Just for the sake of the argument: mushrooms, especially champignons, don't need soil or light, only moisture.

The same goes for most seed sprouts: if consumed early on, as most sprouts are, they wouldn't need soil at all, and not much light. (And they are, in fact, possibly the healthiest food around. Delicious, too.)






[edit on 9-6-2008 by Vanitas]

Where ever there is water there is usually life. If there were places inside with pockets of water, worlds could evolve. There is life at the bottom of the sea in total darkness, and they use light (bioilluminescence). There are fish that live in caves that are blind, but manage to survive. An evolved lifeform might eat the fish or plants that evolved along with them.

Columbia Encyclopedia
Cave fish, common name for blind, cave-dwelling fishes of the family Amblyopsidae. The Amblyopsidae are whitish fish, up to 5 in. (13 cm) long. With the exception of a single species, all members of the family live in the limestone cave region of the Mississippi basin. The three species that live in caves have nonfunctioning rudimentary eyes. The other two species, the springfish and the ricefish (or riceditch killifish), have small, functional eyes. The ricefish, which superficially resembles the toothed minnow, is found in streams and swamps of the SE United States. The cave fish and their relatives are classified in the phylum Chordata, subphylum Vertebrata, class Osteichthyes, order Cyprinodontiformes, family Amblyopsidae.
The Columbia Encyclopedia. Copyright © 2001-07 Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.





[edit on 9-6-2008 by seagrass]

Here are some more tidbits on the subject matter

# In West Virginia, workers found some caverns with strange hieroglyphics written on the walls. They also claimed to gear faint voices and what sounded like machinery coming from beyond the walls of the cavern.

# Two men searching for bat guano (which has some value as fertilizer) at the foot of Mount Lassen found a deep cave. They followed it inside for a mile or two and noticed that the floor was worn smooth, as if it had been used for a road. Eventually they met three strange "men" who asked if they are "surface people," and then took them deeper in the cave on an electromagnetically powered hovercraft. The story gets stranger from there.

# Travelers Ferdinand Ossendowski and Nicholas Roerich claim to have discovered a subterranean society below central Asia, which they referred to as Agharta or Agharti. They say it is home to 20 million people, and their civilization extends throughout all the subterranean passages of the world.

# A 12-man speleological team broke into an ancient tunnel system in northern Arkansas and encountered the inhabitants of the subsurface world.

# Exploring another cave in Arkansas, just north of Batesville, explorers found a tunnel illuminated by a greenish phosphorescence where they met a race of beings who stood 7 to 8 feet tall and had bluish skin. The beings, who have advanced technology, told the explorers they are the direct descendants of Noah.


Source paranormal.about.com...

I hate the term hollow earth, it puts so many people off the idea before they have even given it a chance and then the people who use it to discredit just annoy me, we know it's not completely hollow, it's just a stupid name!!

Is it so unbelievable that there are huge caverns, monumental caverns that could house entire cities? these caverns would be linked by tunnels and smaller or maybe even bigger caverns!! As for why haven't we found it or ever seen anyone from there, we have, we see them alot but we dismiss the stories as rubbish and imagination, we hear about the 'cave dwellers' all the time, the greens, the reptillians (the blues were a first for me for living underground, although I have heard accounts of them before).

No doubt our military has run into them many times, especially if they have started 'developing' underground bases. We have historical accounts of these cave dwellers, the spiritual leaders of man, from China to Greece, from Greece to America, America to India.

One for the road, but plenty more were that came from:

"Admiral Richard E. Byrd of the United States Navy flew to the North Pole in 1926 and over the South Pole in 1929.

In his diary, he tells of entering the hollow interior of the earth, along with others and traveling 17 miles over mountains, lakes, rivers, green vegetation, and animal life. He tells of seeing tremendous animals --resembling the mammoths of antiquity moving --through the brush. He eventually found cities and a thriving civilization. The external temperature was 74 degress F.

His airplane was greeted by flying machines of a type he had never seen before. They escorted him to a safe landing area where he was graciously greeted by emissaries from Agartha."

thanks. EMM

[edit on 10-6-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]

[edit on 10-6-2008 by ElectroMagnetic Multivers]

........"They have light skins and eat large amount of oily fish - which has D3, as noted above. They also have a good culture which promotes outdoor activities. Iceland is also below the arctic circle."...............

Hans....

You are limiting the Human Spirit and Thought Powers to the Physical Realm....

Humans are Physical by "Selfish" Choice....

Humans...are far more adaptable than the Physical alone....

We must see more in ourselves....

Thought....Action...Creation....

Whether it be Above in the Dark Nothingness of "Space"......

Or in the Dark Warm Radiating Depths of the "Subterranean"......

BTW....D3 can also be accumulated from Warm Radiating Glowing Surfaces of the Earth....

Originally posted by SkyfloatingBut the pretense of the majority is that only the surface of earth is relevant.

Yes, well, for now. We have yet to find something that can point to the possibility of humanoid, or larger, creatures capable of living underground without exposing themselves to the surface world.

Howdy

BTW....D3 can also be accumulated from Warm Radiating Glowing Surfaces of the Earth....

Can you please explain what substances can do that and the process of UV production? Thanks

Huge Ocean discovered beneath earth

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Huge Ocean discovered beneath earth

And, just like people say in that thread, its about water satured rock: not an ocean.

In terms of "an ocean" the rock issue would be true, but it would have also caused a great many cracks within the rock and there would be many very large sections of actual water.

The best underwater seas however would be here in the western USA that I know of i the civilized world (greenland and south pole would rock it though)

Much water from the Rockies and Sierras actually flows into the Earth creating rivers and aquifers at varying depths underground all the way out to the Pacific

Places that you can actually enter the Water from the surface are very Rare and tend to be clamped down on.

Devils Hole in Death Valley is one of them, But getting access to dive it has been impossible (The Pup Fish) and endangered species is given as the reason but it's bogus, they just don't want anyone gaining access to the systems down there.

I suspect that if I can stay under long enough I could reach shore back in the direction of Nevada/AZ in one of the larger systems which are probably already in use for area 51 hence the secrecy.

Can't do much in the North Rim of the Canyon either without being accosted... many legends of entrances there too

what I have going for me is I have seen the water speculation maps first hand because I do work for a company that is looking to drill for water here in AZ for purposes of Bio Fuel production

There's a good 4-5 layers of aquifer in the region the first and highest would be on the Coconino Plateau in the North

The Limestone aquifer spans an area the size of a state and is at a depth fo around 2,000-3,000 feet below surface depending upon where you are...

But realize... there is a Hollow that BIG down there...

If it were to dry up that would be one Massive Cave system and the truth is it varies in depth and water fullness and I know of an entrance into it....

There are drainage layers beneath it and all across the area

The deepest would be right under Phoenix where it seems there is a virtual Great Lake in the Vicinity 2-3 Miles Down


But back to the North of the state, these systems all inter connect because water flows and where it can will seek it's way downward...

I've been in the Coconino, took a 30 minute dive to hit the first air pocket and there was plenty of room a good 50-60 feet to cieling left

a system like this would be allot like this one, being on a plateau the water tends to come out, while still above sea level




The Salt River, Verde and Even Lake Havasu all stem from the Cocconino so if you look at a map and realize that most of that is Hollow, you can begin to realize...

Heck yeah a civilization could live in there once it drains out for whatever reason...

and theres at least 30 Miles to the Mantle beyond what I know of around here which would be the proverbial, tip of the ice berg

As Far as food, there was somethings swimming in there, my lights gave me at best 10-20 ft underwater but something not tiny multiple times flickered to the edge of my lights.

And of course I high tailed it not long after lol,

But in my post on Insects I give reference to the Termite 99% of the colony lives 100% self sufficient under ground their entire lives, Bio Luminescence and Mushroom Farms is how they do it...

No reason to believe there isn't allot of life in these places, I haven't seen a cave yet, devoid of life.

What I need is a rebreather set up and intend to purchase one as soon as i can to stay down for hrs at a time...

I don't have a hope in the world of getting into deeper or empty aquifer systems without one, not even sure why they clamp so hard on some locations because you'd need... some serious equipment to get anywhere

Unless... there is Hollows allot closer to the loc in Death Valley than I suspect

But don't kid yourselves,

I go down there as more than a hobbyist and there is plenty o room for more than you can imagine

I post it all the time,

Cavers, Spelunkers if you will, we don't share our finds very often... MOW, My Own World, the Govt certainly wont tell...

It has been said that inder San Fran on wonderful California there is an underground city. With an intrance that is under the ocean. It seems feasable with the plates as jumbled up as they are along a faul line. But not a place I'd like to have a summer home.

Kind of funny you say that because it's 120 here sometimes in the summer and I try to gear up to do most of my caving during that time...

Temps remain nearly constant even in shallow caves nice 56 degree weather!

It is said there are quite a few interesting tunnels under downtown Salt Lake City. I have myself been underground in two spots where I have seen locked doors, which I was told led into further tunnellings, and in both cases I think it was probably true. I have also heard many stories of other SLC tunnel spots, of which maybe five or six I would judge to be non-apocryphal, specific, reliable...There are said to be small and modest tunnels, made to hide daddy in the polygamy days. More urban-legend-esque are tales of conspiratorial sublevels dug at great expense by the LDS Church, with guards and ATVs. (This is not to include the tunnels from the one mortuary, to the Church Office Building, to the temple, and to the conference center, which although they are called "sacred" and are not politely discussed much, are publicly-known facts.)
The Mormons seem inclined to tunnelling. I wonder if it relates to the story of Joseph Smith finding the golden plates in the Hill Cumorah, kind of giving an image of wondrous diggings that could influence the imagination if you heard the tale as a child...

reply to post by Skyfloating


You seem to have an interest Sky

Ever get down there?

Before I get back to work I figure I should share the story of "the big one" where I actually got into what I believe was the coconino for the sake of sharing it...

I found the entrance on the Navajo Res about 18 months ago. I had recently had some major changes in my life and had gone up to the res to chat around about various legends and such.

I was told of some caves in a particular area and spent about a day looking, I found the particular entrance late in the day and had little equipment with me, not even a hard hat.

The entrance was barely a crack and I had to squeeze sideways to get into it, I spent maybe 2 hrs and realized I had stumbled into a good deep vein, the cave was typical of having been formed via a sinkhole process and I could see where the water would flow into it as it gathered in the small valley when it rained, it was classic of most truly deep caves in that it was steep and downward at a fairly precarious angle...

I couldn't go too far because I need to work the next day.

Three weeks later I was back, this time with gear for an over night and enough lights and shin guards and hard hat and ropes and markers.

On this Trek, I made it down far enough to reach the bottom of the whole where there was a large open cavern, not huge but a good limestone cave and it was down deep, it was very pretty, stalactites, some small crystal formation but most best was large amounts Of fools gold in a white rock emerging from one corner of the chamber which was maybe half the size of a football field

I found several veins leading away 3 in total 2 of which turned out to be dead ends within a few hundred feet or so, but the third went downward at not as steep and angle and ended in a sheer drop off an edge of a chasm I could barely see the other side of with my best light.

So I camped in the large chamber and made my way home the next day.

The 3rd trip about a month and a half later I brought an oxygen supply because of the depths I felt I was reaching and rappelling equipment and prepared to spend the entire weekend.

I went to the bottom on the first day, since I rappelled I knew the length, over 600 ft to the bottom of the chasm where I found the cause of it being there a small stream cutting it's way through the Earth I followed this for a couple of hrs which had me very excited. I was full of adrenaline because this was by far the scariest thing I had ever done, Rappelling in total darkness is Nothing for the faint of heart.

It ended finally with a large lake up against a very smooth rock formation, and what I saw was that there was current and the water flowed freely under it.

It was absolutely Amazing, honestly this particular spot is why I say you could live down there, small fish (not albino) but almost translucent inhabited the perfectly clear water, there were also albino millipedes and believe it or not some sort of flying insect that was fed on by bats, which... I had never heard of bats venturing so deep into a Cave before...

Still I had no need for oxygen and it was extremely pleasant to stay there, the lake and chamber were very large, small city block large, and there was...a sky, because the stream had cut so deep there was hardly a visible ceiling, just small points of light glistening from the stalactites high above on moist spots.

This btw scared the life out of me because I would imagine a stalactite falling from hundreds of feet would make short work of me and the floor was covered in rubble where over time they had fallen.

I had no idea what the frequency of that occurring would be, it could be once a month or once a decade, but obviously at a certain weight they would fall and I was careful to be very silent so as not to get myself killed

But most amazing was the columns, in some spots over what must have been eons, some had actually grown together, only a handful but they stood around the lake like giant Sequoias where they had... The hand full of stalactites that had resisted the fall and met their stalagmite counterparts over time, I have never seen anything like it and doubt I ever will

Once again though I had hit a barrier at the Lake

3 months later, I returned

This time a brought a friend because I had already gone to a dangerous place alone and this next maneuver was going to need help.

I brought the scuba gear and made the mistake of bringing an inexperienced caver along, a friend who I knew would keep the location secret, I did not want my find taken away from me and he was a man I could trust.

The whole thing was an ordeal from the Rappelling on, I probably should have turned around, it took a couple of hrs to get him down, he ..a very tough fellow, simply did not have the absence of "the fear"

We managed to get down and I set up for the dive, but unlike me who was awed by the location, when I told him of silence because of falling rock.. he became petrified, said "people shouldn't be in this place" which actually frightened me because... I was counting on him to tow my line if I got stuck or lost under water

I went in anyway, no way I was missing this chance, I swam comfortable to the rock wall and the small fish seemed oblivious to me, sure enough about 2 feet down there was a wide opening that spanned what must have been the whole of the lake, I got under it and was in a chamber of undetermined width and the height from bottom of water to top of roof had to have been 100 ft or more... but as I swam down, it was like diving in an open lake it was free water in every direction but up, I stayed mostly aside for checking depth to the top of the water about 10 feet from the ceiling

Near my 30 minute mark, I found finally an open space as described previously and left the water to sit upon a rock, the cieling was high here again but nothing other than small rock islands coming out of the water

Strangest place I had ever been... it obviously remained like that for a long time, but I couldn't really surface swim with tanks, I just saw no visible end.

This was the largest chamber I had ever been in and the presence of Stalactites and stalagmites told me that at times this place has been dry and the smoothness of stalagmites under the water said it had been wet along time though...

I dove back under after about an hour on the rock and swam back, that is when I noticed what seemed to be larger fish, but what ever they were they did not want any part of me and kept away from my light...

I don't imply any creature or anything strange, I saw what appeared to be the flash of a Fish, a small fin or tail... not sure, but it was larger than any cave fish I had seen before that's all

I made it back to the chamber with a bit of oxygen to spare and found

My poor friend standing white as a ghost petrified...

He has seen the millipedes and was afraid they were poisonous (maybe they were who knows) he had tears running down his face and to this day has not completely forgiven me for bringing him down there

He obviously had a really bad time of it alone in the darkness, which I hadn't anticipated, he was very gruff about the whole thing when I had questioned him prior, "No problem" but I will say I'm glad I hadn't needed him to reel me in.

To this day he claims he heard something moving in there and I am sure it was a complete hallucination beyond perhaps the scurry of something but... he was petrified, Insisted on making our way back without sleeping down there, which was dangerous as heck because it's not an easy climb in any spot and tokes a day to reach... not exploring any side passages or anything, each trip was always a beeline because it's basically a run to greater depths and easy to find and follow the right path to do so. (unless there are others which there could be)

and we did not stop except for rest until we reached the surface exhausted awake for about 48 hrs and then still lol, he refused to sleep near the cave and made me drive 5 or 6 miles away.

Talking outside all he said and had ever said on the subject was " I just felt like I was going to hell"

And he is a rock climbing pal, he had all the skills....

But something about the depth and length of time down there I guess got to him, because I was mostly comfortable

I felt the "terror" a few times "The Rappelling into the chasm" I also felt it then... and the initial dive and when in the water in the chamber where I saw the Fish... seeing something not tiny Move miles into a cave and what had to be a 2/3 a mile while under water gave me a moment of utter fright... I understand it, but like I never fully got how people go off on a bad trip... a few breaths and I know it's an irrational thing and I shake it in a matter of a minute...

But I "get it" because it's going to hit you once in a while and it's not like I haven't felt it...

I haven't been back but 1 time since, this summer I was on smaller chambers when I went, teaching my son how to explore and having fun and doing simple dives in simple caves and working...

But i'll be getting my Rebreather so I can stay down for hrs at a time and I'm going to find what lies beyond in there

I'm sure I entered the actual aquifer which I don't think anyone has ever done, the depth seemed to be right

But I need equipment, particularly an underwater camera, the scuba gear to do last year set me into financial troubles for months... but i need that Camera equipment too...

Some hobbies... cost a fortune and take a lifetime, just how it goes...

But that cave is my sweatheart, I won't see the entrance sealed until I document it and I know especially on res land where superstitions abound that is what will be done.