Who is to blame for Britain's knife-crime epidemic?

I think something along the lines of leaving the EU(avoid European court of human rights) and bringing back such good things as the cane in schools and much much harsher prisons would be a good way of sorting them out. These people don't take notice of someone wanting to talk about "their problems", but I bet sure as hell that the fear of harsh prisons would make them take notice.
The government has tried the nice approach and look what it is like in London, stabbings of 12 year olds, 12!!
It is obvious that the only way to deal with these scum is to treat them like they should be: Harshly.

My two pennies.

Please do not presume that there is an 'epidemic of knife use' in Britain just because of press reports.

Yes we have had several stabbings in recent months - and one is too many. HOWEVER there are over 60 million people living in the uk and because we are not used to these sort of crimes, everyone makes the front page... and rightly so.

I work on an extremely large estate in North England, which has high levels of deprevation and gangs of young people. In the 7 years I have worked there I have not heard of a stabbing. don't get me wrong, we have issues around drugs and other incidents e.g. joy riding.

So please get this in perspective, particularly those of you from the States. England is still a relatively save place to live, I can go out into the city centre on an evening and feel perfectly safe. I can walk my dogs at night ALONE and feel safe.

There will always be violent people, idiots, 'nutters' about, and as our population grows it stands to reason that those numbers will also grow. I would argue that for 60 million residents, we are doing better than other Countrys who have huge issues with gun crimes. I have never seen a real gun and neither have any of my friends. I am no spring chicken either, with 2 grown up sons.

They have nothing better to do. They have no identity, ideals or values to uphold. The system doesn't believe in them, so how can you expect them to believe in themselves? They have no jobs or future, or any goal to work towards, so it should not come as a surprise that these pariahs take to the streets and wreak all sorts of mayhem and heartache. They simply are not doing anything on a day-to-day basis. The root of most violent acts in America is the money. The root of a lot of violent acts in the UK is boredom; not to mention boredom fuelled by alcohol. There are also some glaring cultural issues that need to be addressed as well. I think a lot of teens need to direct their energy towards more positive things. I've come across some teens who are just in a state of social angst. They have no sort of guidance, or authority in their lives, and some do seem to feel as though the people at the top have not done enough to affect their personal lives at any capacity. It's a long and complex issue, and it is one that will not be resolved for generations to come.

[edit on 26-5-2008 by atlscribe]

reply to post by dave420

Originally posted by dave420

You should read about the gun laws in the UK - if you did, you'd be surprised to find that gun ownership is perfectly legal in the UK, just not for handguns (as they're an offensive weapon, solely used to hurt people).

That argument makes no sense at all. Long weapons are used for the very same reasons as handguns.

Originally posted by dave420

If the alternative for the UK is to become like the US, with shootings every single day, then I say keep the handgun ban.

This is a prime instance for the Ben Franklin quote:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".


Back to the OP. After reading some of the posts here from the UK, it seems like lenient judges are part of the problem. I would say you need some Truth in Sentencing.

Btw, we have the same problem with judges here in the States.

Originally posted by scarlett1125
It seems to me that overlegislation is the the crux of the problem. Everything can now be considered criminal. If you haven't hurt anyone or taken their property, you shouldn't be in prison. Supposedly, the drug war was invented to prevent drug dealers and users from hurting in others in the process of completing their drug deals. Wouldn't it make more sense to address the problems that these people who resort to dealing have? Legalizing drugs and making the prison system strictly for those who commit crimes against the people would solve a lot of the problem. I also believe that caging people like animals is not working. We don't do enough to rehabilitate or to help offenders who actually want to do the right thing when they get out. Instead, we lump them all into the same category and continue treating them like animals even after they have served their time. And then we expect them to be honest, upstanding citizens?

"treating them like animals", even my spoilt dog doesn't have a TV, radio and xbox.

[edit] typo

[edit on 26/5/2008 by spitefulgod]

reply to post by vor78


Well, there you go - there is a huge prision population and the simple fact is that as a whole people are becoming more hesitant to put people in jail because of it.

I don't think it's so much a fear of over-legislation as a fear of our willingness to accept that there is a severe lack in social planning that has manifested itself within each of our independant societies.

The most apparent symptom of this in England could probably be compared to the drink culture - these sub-middle agers and teenagers seem to have so much time and money on their hands that they can spend their evenings drinking it up and generally causing havoc for the cops.

The day we become afraid to apply justice because of our own petty indifferences will be the day when murderers and rapists go free from prision.

Oh wait!

That's already happened!

Originally posted by AGENT_T
Only big girls blouses would resort to knifing someone..

But it takes a REAL man to win a fight by tickling someone!

Pistols as offensive wheapons: A pistol (hand gun, origionally a pistol was a dagger from Pistola, Italy. :-) ) in the hands of a shopkeeper, (such as my friend, jewler and former pawn broker John 'Cherokee' Quinn) is definately not an offensive wheapon. It does, however have a calming effect on would be holdup men. Just the fact that Quinn had three or more guns behind the counter within easy reach made certain two legged skunks turn tail and look for easier victims.

Perhaps those who wish to travel armed should wear a distintive arm band. Just the sight of such an armband might make the skunks head elsewhere.

The big problem in the American "Justice" system is the fact that it has been perverted into a revenue producing sysyem by the "Guilty Plea System". If "Guilty Pleas" were disallowed and "Confessions" were banned from court so that only trial by jury with only physical evidence and eye (and ear) witness testamony allowed, the court system would choke up and force us to repeal unenforcable laws. Secondly, The Innocence Project that examined and exonorated dozens of death row cases in America proved that in capital cases there was a 50% chance that a convicted "criminal" was actually innocent. Project that 50% rate on the remainder of the "criminal" population in prision and you have three things:
1.) Half of our prison budget wasted on those who are no threat and never were a threat to society.
2.) A huge number of people coming out of prison deeply embittered at society dreaming of vengance.
3.) A large number of real threats roaming our streets laughing at how easily they have put another one over on "the Chump Society" and how easily they evaded the dumb pig cops.

As for the "Toxic Waste" that we put in maximum security, If we put them in blacked out solitary confinement 24/7/365 these tough guys will break down in a couple of months.

If they turn # thrower, put them naked in a "Toilet Cell" that gets "Flushed" (with cold water) from one to six times each day.

Originally posted by dave420
When was the last time a school massacre happened in the UK?

Why don't you tell us? School shootings are happening in the USA and not in the UK because you already have draconian gun laws there, mission accomplished. Here they're trying to get them passed, and will go to any length to make it happen. Tyrants prefer unarmed peasants.

So who is to blame for knife violence? Why the idiot committing crime with a knife of course. Take their knife away and they’ll use a club, etc. Just like they’re using a knife because you took their gun away, and the guns of those who would be defending themselves from the knife wielding idiot.

There will always be violent incidents. No matter what laws you have.

Here is my suggestion:

Not all weapons should be outlawed. Most should, but everyone should be encouraged to carry something non-lethal at all times, like one of those wooden training swords.

When people do go violent, they will tend to reach for their trusty stick. Bruses and some minior bleeding will probably occur, but for the most part, attacks will be respondend to in kind and damage minimized.

Even an attack with a more deadly weapon will stand a chance of being suppressed, say a knife attack or gun attack in a crowd. Superior numbers of the lesser weapon will provide the opportunity for reason to prevail.

reply to post by Cyberbian


I once had a similar argument you did, until someone came around and hit me with the fact that not everyone in society is capable of using a weapon with a reasonable degree of skill.

You don't really expect a little old granny to charge down the street with her practice sword raised in the offensive position, after all.

What do you suggest, give everyone over 70 a free taser?

Besides, if you're gonna use a weapon, you use your fists*.

Why do criminals use guns?

Because there might be one or two wannabe heroes out there who are carrying knives, and only a fool would bring a knife to a gun fight.

It's like a technological war - one side acheives a technological advantage, and then the other side finds a way around it.




*A guy who knows how to fist-fight is in many cases more dangerous than a man armed with a knife.

You don't keep your eyes on the guy who isn't armed.

As a previous poster said, it's purely a technological advantage. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, but (for criminals) they simply bring a knife to an unarmed man's throat.

Personally, I would like it everyone had to have a gun on them (once they were 21). I bet you anything crime would decrease massively.

Simple logic, really;
Either go to...
UK, where there are NO guns and only knife-equipped criminals.
US, where there are possibly gun and/or knife wielding individual rarely.
Gun society, where everyone has a gun and will shoot you if you try to mug them.

As a criminal the top the two would be most desirable, while the last would be sure suicide.

Another aspect is that a handgun is a great equalizer between a 100 pound women and the 200 pound man that wants an easy rape victim.

The weaker members of society are the ones who benefit from guns or knives and tazers if there was adequate training. Its just too bad those nerd kids keep getting their hands on weapons and wind up shooting up schools.

I'd be more inclined to a dueling law, if you have a problem with someone.

No doubt the government will introduce a victim tax on those who are the victims of crime??

I would hate the see guns legalised in this country, for you to get stabbed you need to be at arms reach, for you to get shot you don't, the criminals in this country are stupid, hold no moral ground post their crimes on youtube, if guns where introduced it wouldn't be long before the words "eh jezzo watch me blow this gidders head off init, duuuurrrrrrrrr".

No guns please.

And like what some of the others have said even without knives the yobs just use whatever is to hand, that 16 year old was stabbed in the neck with some broken glass, the problem is the mentality of these idiots which is installed by the government and their lapsed laws, legal system and welfare state.

[edit] Had to add the obligatory "init"

[edit on 27/5/2008 by spitefulgod]

reply to post by garyo1954

I glove slap thee!!!!

I would like to bring up a thread i made a long while back

Increase Mandatory Sentences

One of the key problems is the majority of people found carrying a knife are given a caution, why in gods name is that even happening once? If you are carrying a knife without a good reason then it's surely an offensive weapon. My only exception to this would be a small swiss army knife, with a none lockable, folding, short blade. Whilst this can of course still do harm, if you stab someone with it the blade is more likely to fold back on your own thumb and slice it off.

This is the only knife i would allow someone to carry, i used to carry one myself as i found a lot of uses for it (like the little screwdriver on them, or the bottle opener). However i stopped carrying one after all this knife trouble started, i didn't want to be labelled a criminal.

One of my biggest problems with these youngsters carrying knifes is the fact they think they're "hard". Well if you have to carry a knife around it shows you're basically a complete wimp, and yet if they stab someone they seem to think that makes them seriously tough. It's a mentality that needs to be challenged. Without their knives and on their own they shrink like the little wimps they are and wouldn't dare do anything to annoy anyone.

The parents are also to blaim, if my parents had ever caught me with such a thing i'd have been sat down, screamed at, all things i enjoy doing removed and a good slap to boot. That may sound harsh but my parents were very kind and fair in every way, however an argeement was always clear, i misbehave i get in massive trouble with them. Guess what, i never commited a crime and neither did my brother, their technique must have worked.

Finally it is the knife sellers who are a big problem. Websites sell to anyone and often don't consider their age. I don't think we should ban any kind of knives. Some fantasy knives are collected by scifi fans, i know someone with a big collection and she's the nicest person you'll meet. I myself own a lot of martial arts weapons (because i used to do martial arts) and would hope none of these would be banned. I know how to use them all extremely well but i would never attack someone with them outside a training enviroment. I just use to enjoy training with them. Kids can easily walk into a kitchen and get a knife so why bother banning certain types?

In the end there is no single cause that can be nailed down as the problem. Parents, the judicial system, knife sellers, a bad youth mentality and a government who don't give the right message are all problems which need to be addressed.

I'll tell you what I know first-hand, disregarding everyone's theories here...

Australia has a had a virtual ban on firearms since the Port Arthur Massacre of 1996. Some of you maybe unaware, but basically this mentally unstable bloke went on a killing spree in Tasmania, killing 35 tourists and holiday-goers at a popular resort restaurant.

The government right there and then made it impossible for civilians to legally acquire anything at all remotely automatic, any firearm with a large magazine capacity and basically any high-powered firearm above the 22. Calibre.
Basically the average Australian citizen cannot own any type of firearm nowadays (even handguns) without going through a stringent security-check ordeal which involves mental health analysis, background check, records, the works and usually takes months.
I don't even know of any gun stores where I live, Perth.

Prior to 1996, Australia had a pretty low violent homicide rate, somewhere around the 400 deaths a year mark, around half of them due to firearms.

Nowadays were down to around 300, maybe less. Where I live, Perth, there's was I think 40 or 50 homicides last year for a city of +1 million people.

You can check these facts and figures yourself:
www.pdfdownload.org...
www.aic.gov.au...

Why the decrease?
My theory is simple, you take away the easiest, most common means for people to kill each other and the homicide rate will decrease. Not to say it will solve the problem, it won't, as long as human beings exist there will be bloodshed.

But readily available firearms give those people who want to cause harm to others an easy and simple means by which to do so. I mean killing a person with a gun, it's like flicking a switch, squeeze the trigger and you've taken a life.
It's by far the most preferred choice; while knives, bats, swords and sticks and other methods will always be available and harder to restrict doesn't mean people will necessarily resort to them.

Think of how much harder it is to kill someone with a baseball bat or a crowbar or a screwdriver. It's messy, it's physical and it's personal; I don't think many people out there who resort to handguns to commit crimes could carry them out as efficiently or at all with knives and blunt objects and weapons.

To me that's what I see wrong with America, your lax gun laws give all those psychopaths and violent people out there such an easy opportunity to carry out their criminal desires.
Why give them an opportunity at all? You ban guns an surely the homicide rate will decrease.

England and Australia's homicide rates combined come nowhere close to the US's, I mean doesn't that say something?
Take away the means to kill and the killing will sure decrease....
It's a simple equation really.

Originally posted by easystreet


So please get this in perspective, particularly those of you from the States. England is still a relatively save place to live, I can go out into the city centre on an evening and feel perfectly safe. I can walk my dogs at night ALONE and feel safe.

I it? Then why do all independent research and statistics show Britain to have the highest crime rates in the developed World? Higher by quite a bit in all crimes (including violent crime but not murder) than the USA?

To use your theory that we read about knife crime in the press because it's rare, could also be used to suggest you don't hear about knife crime in your estate because it is common?

I know the crime of this country well, I study it and though I think, thanks to the deviancy amplification spiral and moral panic, it is wholly over exaggerated by the media, there are huge crime problems here. You ask any immigrant how they see crime in Britain in relation to the country they have left.