Shouldn't Secrets be hidden?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
You're the source. You're the high-degree Mason. Show an obligation that does.

If there is one, and I can confirm the validity of it, I'll shut my damn trap!

Surely. I can guess you've heard of Duncan's Ritual? Freely available online a bunch of places...Project Gutenberg, secret-texts.com, as well as any notable bookstore or library?

Good enough source for you?

Then here:

before you can be permitted to advance any farther in Masonry, it becomes my duty to inform you, that you must take upon yourself a solemn oath or obligation, appertaining to this degree, which I, as Master of this Lodge, assure you will not materially interfere with the duty that you owe to your God, yourself, family, country, or neighbor.

www.sacred-texts.com...

Let's look at that. You've already got a duty to God, yourself, family, country or neighbor, and we're asking you to take on additional duties, but we're not asking for the new ones to interfere with the ones you've already got.

It doesn't get any clearer than that!

reply to post by JoshNorton


You have my attention ... anything more recent?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

You have my attention ... anything more recent?

It's a tad more recent than the Bible. If one can live by a 2000 year old book, no reason a 150 year old one can't still be relevant in some regards.

Edit: But to refrain from being a wiseass, the current version of the same in my state isn't significantly different:

before you can proceed further in our ceremonies, it becomes necessary for you to take upon yourself a solemn obligation, which I, as Worshipful Master of this lodge, assure you will not interfere with your duty to God, your country, your neighbor or yourself.

Don't know if that version's available online or not.

[edit on 5/25/2008 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by JoshNorton
no reason a 150 year old one can't still be relevant in some regards.

What regards would that be?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

You have my attention ... anything more recent?

You have managed to completely ignore my earlier post. That's a shame, as it answers your question directly.

As a citizen of the world, I am to enjoin you to be exemplary in the discharge of your civil duties, by never proposing or at all countenancing any act that may have a tendency to subvert the peace and good order of society, by paying due obedience to the laws of any State which may for a time become the place of your residence or afford you its protection, and above all, by never losing sight of the allegiance due to the Sovereign of your native land, ever remembering that nature has implanted in your breast a sacred and indissoluble attachment towards that country whence you derived your birth and infant nurture.

Here - I'll post a bit more for you. BTW this ritual is current.

... vows of fidelity are required; but let me assure you that in those vows there is nothing incompatible with your civil, moral, or religious duties.

Is there anything about this direct quote from current masonic ritual that is not clear to you?

Do please let me know if you have any questions.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

You have my attention ... anything more recent?

I don't have a hard source, except my word and my recent experiences as a master mason. Having recently gone through the 3 masonic degrees in the last year (recent enough?), I can say at each of the degree ceremonies one of the officers said a preamble along the lines that I was about to take the oath of the 1st/2nd/3rd degree and that nothing contained therein would conflict with any moral, legal, local, state or national duties, obligations, or laws.

In conversations before joining the lodge and doing the 1st degree, I was questioning several members of the lodge. They mentioned the brotherhood and the assistance they each give to fellow members, their wives, widows, and orphans, but that it NEVER applied in legal issues and I shouldn't expect to be able to get a free pass for any crime, even something silly like a speeding ticket. Part of me thought, 'shoot, i wanted to jaywalk in front of a cop and get away with it'. however i was was somewhat glad to hear this as I took it to mean the sole purpose of the masonic organizations was NOT a good 'ol boys club that could get away with doing anything they wanted.

I had my own fears and doubts about joining the Masons, but afterwards found my doubts completely unfounded. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything with this post. Believe me or choose not to. It's your prerogative.

I'm feeling a little left out, you keep ignoring my posts. Now I'm sad.

Let's revisit one so that I can be happy again:

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Not only will you not convince me, but I am right and you are wrong.

Well, that's it. We can shut down all the threads on Masonry. We have all the answers we need in that statement.

I'm not sure what the solution is in toto, but for myself, as I wrote earlier, I could be assuaged with complete transparency.

OK, why don't you take the lead in this "transparency"? What bank do you deal with? Your bank card number and PIN too please.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
a solemn obligation, which I, as Worshipful Master of this lodge, assure you will not interfere with your duty to God, your country, your neighbor or yourself.

So it's the Master of the Lodge that assures the initiates that there's no conflict at all. I have no doubt that they take his word for it, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.

The question is, should I take the Worshipful Master's word that these brotherly oaths to one another does not in any way negate other duties to society?

I was looking for something along the lines of something definitive: "any obligation you've taken or will take in this Lodge, does not supersede any oath to God or country."

If the above is the extent of the "disclaimer," then it doesn't satisfy me.

reply to post by intrepid


Okay, here's your answer superman: it's the most asinine question I've ever been asked. This is reason why I didn't answer the first time - because it didn't deserve one. Your analogy is not only preposterous, it is akin to crazy-talk.

How do you feel now?

Is that what you wanted to hear?

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Is that what you wanted to hear?

No, you're the one calling for total transparency, why don't you take the lead? What are you keeping secret? Personally I won't feel good until I have your secrets. Let's start with the info I asked for. If not, why not?

reply to post by AccessDenied


Just to add to your thread:

Why do masons not have to keep secrets?

Answer: Because nobody understands their teachings/rituals anyway.

Read some of the rituals posted on the internet...nobody has a clue what they mean

Hmm, I get the feeling that I'm being ignored again. Wonder why? Rhetoric and supposition are easily directed but it's hard to deal with logic.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by AccessDenied

 

Just to add to your thread:

Why do masons not have to keep secrets?

Answer: Because nobody understands their teachings/rituals anyway.

Read some of the rituals posted on the internet...nobody has a clue what they mean

Oh my Skyfloating...How completely true.

Originally posted by Trinityman

Is there anything about this direct quote from current masonic ritual that is not clear to you?

Nope. Sounds lovely and cosmopolitan.

The Illuminati had "vows of fidelity" too; vows of virtue and charity. It was all so quaint, and cute, and - oh, ya - a lie!

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The Illuminati had "vows of fidelity" too; vows of virtue and charity. It was all so quaint, and cute, and - oh, ya - a lie!

Since this is from published ritual, available easily from many sources, why do you think this is a lie?

If you are not accepting primary sources as evidence, then what do you accept?

It seems to me that you are resorting to desperation in the face of incontrovertible evidence. I have demonstrated to you quite clearly from published, current masonic ritual that freemasons obey the law of the land before any obligation to another freemason, and all you can do is bleat "you're lying"?

I expected better.

My post on this certainly WAS prophetic:

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
In the quest to find out who is responsible for this conspiracy for which so many have deemed must exist, they will go to no ends to prove it. They will create symbolism and links where there are none, they will take everything that agrees with their opinion as truth and ignore anything that contradicts it.

I should take up a job as a prophet. Anyone hiring?

[edit on 25-5-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
The Illuminati had "vows of fidelity" too; vows of virtue and charity. It was all so quaint, and cute, and - oh, ya - a lie!

Since this is from published ritual, available easily from many sources, why do you think this is a lie?

If you are not accepting primary sources as evidence, then what do you accept?

It seems to me that you are resorting to desperation in the face of incontrovertible evidence. I have demonstrated to you quite clearly from published, current masonic ritual that freemasons obey the law of the land before any obligation to another freemason, and all you can do is bleat "you're lying"?

I expected better.

What do you want? You want me to admit that your rituals are real? And that they say what you claim they say?

OK.

What else?

Would you like me join with the shills and start promoting the brotherhood? Tell everyone what a lovely secret society it is - they make great sounding speeches (yada, yada) - and that we should all partake in such lofty pursuits?

Fat chance.

Besides, there'd be no other reason for you guys to be here on ATS, other than to recruit and gang up on "antis." ATS-ers must have gotten special medals from the Grand Lodge by now.

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Prediction: many, many stars!!!

Prediction: applause from all your mason buddies!

Prediction: high-fives all around!

Originally posted by AccessDenied
My question is, in YOUR LOCAL AREA, are the Freemasons as open with their Buildings and symbolisms and membership as they are here?

I like your topic. "Stating the fact that" someone is a 33rd degree free mason proves nothing one way or the other. The experience of being a 33rd degree free mason would tell you whether or not there is something going on.

You can speculate about free masonry until the chickens come home.


Experience is not gained through information.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
So it's the Master of the Lodge that assures the initiates that there's no conflict at all. I have no doubt that they take his word for it, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.

The question is, should I take the Worshipful Master's word that these brotherly oaths to one another does not in any way negate other duties to society?

Man, you're really starting to confuse me. I can't seem to parse your sentence at all...

Are you implying that someone could take a vow, which is true to them, and have it instead be false? That's along the same lines as the Anti-s here who somehow suggest that it's possible for someone to worship something without realizing it.

Both vows and worship are acts of deliberate intent by those performing said acts. The power and sincerity of those acts is directly related to the faith and effort put into them by said person.

Neither are something that could be subverted by a 2nd party.