US residents in military brigs? Govt says it's war

While I wish that this surprised me, it doesn't. I always figured I was on a list somewhere and that I would eventually be part of some round-up. I guess I just figured that it would be completely illegal. However, if this judge allows this to pass, the precedent will be set.

Excellent post! This wasn't on any front page I saw today (go figure!), so I'm glad that you found it.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


you sound like a cheerleader for the doomed.
"just lie down and take it! you'll be well bound and lubed, so don't worry! 'they' would NEVER try and 'hurt' you."

i say:
"this will only hurt, .....A LOT!!!"


lemmings are sad...
...and that was just propaganda, too. lemmings don't have mass suicides, unless someone CHASES them off the cliff.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

I was. You said that the constitution is nothing but a waste of meaningless paper, so in reply to that reference, I said, "what about money?"

Okay. What about it?

I'd just like to hear a first hand experience if you could share.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have many more examples as well.

I am well informed on the subject. You seem to be evidently suffering from a psychological dissorder as shown through the nature of your pompous "patriotic" replies.

Nice. Now being patriotic and caring about your country means you have a psychological disorder?

Flagged. This is the type of thing that is most disturbing for me right now. How can someone look at this and still think that we live in a free country? We are no longer free people, we are pawns for the "elite". Not that we have been truly free for a long....LONG time, but at least the illusion used to exist. Our only real comfort in this is that in our herd, we still have safety in numbers. We can still hope that we are so insignificant that they wouldn't bother locking us up. It is sad when that is the hope that we are relying on. No pride in our wonderful country, but a prayer for insignificance.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


Wow Last If I am understanding you correct then you are way off on this in my opinion of course.

First off the government wont paste our faces on the news? What about the 2 Seattle guys on the ferry who the FBI insisted their names and faces needed to be pasted all over because they might be terrorists and then come to find out they were here on business. LOL. Yes it can happen to you or me and it makes no difference if your last name is Smith or Muhammad.

The government isnt elected to protect us from ourselves you are not right. The government of a free nation is elected to protect the people from others who would stop people from making their own choices stupid or not. The government is to serve the people not to police the people.

Franklin's quote needs to be thrown out are you serious? In a free nation if you have to sacrifice your liberty for security then you really do deserve neither. That quote is as straight as they come.

What do you think your money is? The constitution must be changed so that we can keep the world a somewhat peaceful place. As stated earlier. The Earth does not only consist of America. Don't be such a nationalistic egoist. Open your eyes to the whole picture and the betterment of the world and all of its citizens.

Nationalistic egotist? I live in America and I dont want to be part of one world under one government sorry. Not because I think America is the best and that we are hollier then you just because Ive seen what a corrupt leadership can do to one country like ours and I like the choice of moving to another country if I have to. Under one world that choice is gone and we are all slaves to the man. Let me ask you a question who do you think will control this new world hmm? The same elitists who pull the strings and control our government here thats who. Who do you think is trying to implement this NWO. If you like serfdom then by all means support a NWO.

And how has any of these "liberties" that have been taken away from you effected you? I'd just like to hear a first hand experience if you could share.

I just forked over $30k to the IRS in income taxes thats the most recent. Income tax is unconstitutional. When I spent that fiat dollar 20 min ago thats another unconstitutional part. Those are a couple recent ones.

In the end I see where the differences between you and I stand and that is your are for a one world under one government and I am not. I understand your reasons for wanted a one world because I used to have the same reasons. Peace Harmony etc. But what I also see is when you give a small group the power to control the world it will be abused just like it is here in the states. Frankly Im a slave now and I dont want to be even more under some NWO policy.

reply to post by birchtree


I received your u2u on the subject, and your comment was as far as I got in this thread. You asked me a very important question, and I want to answer this first. Mostly, because Jackinthebox is holding his own on his side.
You asked if I would honestly hold the gov't responsible for my families death at the hands of terrorists? Ah, you know very little about me, so you would not know how bad of a question that is to write to me. I will not go any farther into that question on these boards.
So, what about this guy in particular? Well, I, unlike many others, supported a limited war on terror. I was for the invasion of Afghanistan. I also felt like a couple of cruise missiles should have flown around to other world wide targets. Alas, we had a president advised by the CIA and not the National War College.

Academics kill soldiers.

I believe that if we have information about terrorists in this country, we should pursue them. But do not fail me continuously on border security and then tell me I need to give up my rights. We live in a country with no limits between state to state travel. For this, I am willing to put up with a huge amount of stress to travel to other countries.

BUT DO NOT TOUCH MY FREEDOM ON THIS SOIL!!!

I fought for my country. I vote. I took my civics classes, and I volunteer. I am not special, I am an American. My constitution is special.

I never thought I would say this, but Ron Paul is right.

The point? I say that it is our job to defend liberty, and our country. I say, if a peoples do not ask for our help, whether to repel an invader, or help a democracy flourish, then we should only send cruise missiles or care packages. Apply where relevant.

I say that I hold myself responsible for my own safety. Death does not scare me. Being known as the generation that let the dream die? That scares the crap out of me.

This thread was not intended to be about this accused man. It was intended to show you all, again, that we have laws in place that should never be there. All it takes now is for a trigger to set off the martial law. Then you will see how much you gave up to protect us from the outside world.

I just would like to point out to all once again, if there is a round up, all you paranoids are not going to need to be on a list it will be a systematic displacement. Not one designed for an individual but for the masses.

If it is real (meaning an actual emergency)it will happen in a large area and you will be considered under the law (if there is such a thing at that point) as Internal displaced peoples or (IDP's) and depending on what the incident may be, or how large an area the incident covers you will be moved to FEMA camps, you will not know if it is real or not because the only comms you will have will be through those areas in which you are moved and if it is a real incident you will be lucky to be moved rather then quarantined in an area where you will most likey die (weather it is biological, chemical. natural disaster, or in the event of a energy crisis where power, water supplies and food cannot be moved into your area..well just picture Katrina but imagine the area incident being the size of a state.

If its is a produced (meaning staged) emergency it will be portrayed to be so massive in scale (aliens are attacking, the world is ending, we are moving everyone to a nuc shelter for total war) that in reality it would not matter if they rounded up citizens, but they will still be doing it...that is your clue to f?@&*^% hide.... because there is not a enough man power on that scale or facilities to move and hold an entire population.

Seriously, their not going to nickel and dime families till enough people get wind about the happenings and decide to take up arms. IF its THEY you are talking about, THEY are not going to warn us. Please! think! There are already enough COG, FEMA, and martial law abilities for them to round up people, what makes you think they are going to bother setting a court precedent so THEY can pick you up. Just exactly what is it you are doing people to think THEY are going to want to focus THEIR attention to you, If THEY wanted you THEY would not need to establish some law precedent at the Supreme Court level...THEY would just come get you anyway. Think about it.

On the other hand if we are talking sensibly about case law as it concerns our Constitutional Rights vs the rights of someone who was in the process of Killing more American Families, I think we need to look internally at ourselves and ask.. if this joe did detonate a hydrogen cyanide bomb in a crowded community we would also be discussing our governments inability to protect us and weather or not the government actually did it. CMON draw the line somewhere. We already know that there is good and evil (spiritually or actual) and if your are looking as far as the President and stopping there YOU ARE LOST. On the fore front is where the battle for our Constitution and Bill of RIghts needs to be fought, because in order for it to be circumvented they will need to erode it in front of us and hope we dont take notice or it will take some idiot to say lets do away with this ancient thing and rewrite it (yeah that sounds good....not), not knowing that when it is done away with, there will be no new writing that will take place. That will just be the end.

I think deep down inside I am with most of you, I get what you are trying to say, but in my opinion you are lost. You might have the right fears and be on track with what you think is happening...but you are focusing on the things which are being done and instead of examining how it might erode a portion of our constitution or our God given rights you are turning into this OH MY GOSH vast conspiracy...that if it was going to unfold would not be in our face at the Supreme Court Level........It will be for all to see when it happens...because those plays are being held behind closed doors where we are not going to be able to field a response.

reply to post by jasonjnelson


Your reply to me was right on point, I 100% agree with you. I think that is why I was attempting to point out that this dynamic of having cells (which could be considered as enemy combatants) on our soil is something the Government is prob itself trying to determine what is what....I agree that we should be watching closely....that is what attracted me to this thread. I too took the oath and served over 12 years...I vote (although sometimes I wonder why) and am now a public servant (a type that is often attacked on this site) but I am serious when I say the public comes first. I care about our freedoms and the peoples rights to complain about those freedoms. I really appreciate your reply to me. It is authentic as it gets I am proud people with our beliefs exist here. Thank you

Originally posted by birchtree

If its is a produced (meaning staged) emergency it will be portrayed to be so massive in scale (aliens are attacking, the world is ending, we are moving everyone to a nuc shelter for total war) that in reality it would not matter if they rounded up citizens, but they will still be doing it...that is your clue to f?@&*^% hide.... because there is not a enough man power on that scale or facilities to move and hold an entire population.

Seriously, their not going to nickel and dime families till enough people get wind about the happenings and decide to take up arms. IF its THEY you are talking about, THEY are not going to warn us. Please! think! There are already enough COG, FEMA, and martial law abilities for them to round up people, what makes you think they are going to bother setting a court precedent so THEY can pick you up. Just exactly what is it you are doing people to think THEY are going to want to focus THEIR attention to you, If THEY wanted you THEY would not need to establish some law precedent at the Supreme Court level...THEY would just come get you anyway. Think about it.

On the other hand if we are talking sensibly about case law as it concerns our Constitutional Rights vs the rights of someone who was in the process of Killing more American Families, I think we need to look internally at ourselves and ask.. if this joe did detonate a hydrogen cyanide bomb in a crowded community we would also be discussing our governments inability to protect us and weather or not the government actually did it. CMON draw the line somewhere. We already know that there is good and evil (spiritually or actual) and if your are looking as far as the President and stopping there YOU ARE LOST. On the fore front is where the battle for our Constitution and Bill of RIghts needs to be fought, because in order for it to be circumvented they will need to erode it in front of us and hope we dont take notice or it will take some idiot to say lets do away with this ancient thing and rewrite it (yeah that sounds good....not), not knowing that when it is done away with, there will be no new writing that will take place. That will just be the end.

I think deep down inside I am with most of you, I get what you are trying to say, but in my opinion you are lost. You might have the right fears and be on track with what you think is happening...but you are focusing on the things which are being done and instead of examining how it might erode a portion of our constitution or our God given rights you are turning into this OH MY GOSH vast conspiracy...that if it was going to unfold would not be in our face at the Supreme Court Level........It will be for all to see when it happens...because those plays are being held behind closed doors where we are not going to be able to field a response.

I wanted to reply to your thoughts because I agree with you, but only to a point. While I know that in the case of a "national emergency," they have the right to take me or my husband or whomever else they choose, this precedent bothers me because it means that they don't have to wait for martial law. They could start rounding us up before they declare anything and we would not know it was coming until it was too late.

I realize that many on here are prepared for this, but I think they also know that we are preparing. When you're talking about taking people, there is an infinite number of ways to go about doing so. Just because you have your weapons on hand at home doesn't necessarily mean that you are prepared. For instance, I have my concealed weapons permit, but they would know that I would not have my weapon on me while I'm at work (because I teach at a college and cannot have it there). It would be the perfect opportunity. Most of us have those "perfect opportunities" somewhere in our routines, and that makes this even more ominous, in my opinion.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I believe it was quoted to me once upon a time that history tends to repeat itself. Growing up, the USSR was evil because they would just take their citizens away and not afford them due process, yet it's OK when our government decides to do the same?

Go back to sleep and pay all this no mind people. Your government only has your best interests at heart. Those are antiquated laws written to govern a country in a time where evil doers didn't exist.

Well here is the list of charges :

Summary of Evidence memo

A Summary of Evidence memo was prepared for Jaralla Saleh Mohammed Kahla Al Marri's Combatant Status Review Tribunal, on 14 October 2004.[9] The memo listed the following allegations against him:

a. The detainee was associated with the Taliban and al Qaida forces.

1. The detainee is a Qatar citizen who traveled to Afghanistan, through Pakistan, to participate in the Jihad.
2. The detainee arrived in Pakistan in the fall of 2001 and later traveled to a guesthouse in Afghanistan.
3. Prior to 11 September 2001, the detaines went to the al Farouq camp[16] camp even after learning it was owned by Usama Bin Laden.
4. The detainee fled the al Farouq [16] camp after 11 September 2001, and was issued an AK-47.
5. The detainee had interaction with the Taliban and they directed him through checkpoints throughout Afghanistan.
6. The detainee and others fled Afghanistan, but were arrested at the Pakistan border by the Pakistani police.

Al-Marri's position

Al-Marri's Combatant Status Review Tribunal was held on October 30, 2004.[1] Al-Marri requested a lawyer. He was told that the tribunal was not a court of law, so he didn't need a lawyer. Al-Marri then started responding to all questions by saying "No comment".

Al Marri's personal representative told the tribunal that he had expected Al-Marri to speak on his own behalf, so he only had rough notes.[1] Al-Marri and his personal representative had discussed the unclassified portion of the summary of why the DoD considered Al-Marri an unlawful combatant. Al-Marri agreed with the summary that he had "traveled to Afghanistan, in the fall of 2001, prior to the attacks of 9-11. But he said he didn't know that the camp was owned by Bin Laden. He denied being issued an AK-47. He said he traveled alone, not with others. He acknowledged interacting with the Taliban, at roadblocks. At the time he traveled Taliban manned all the roadblocks.

en.wikipedia.org...

The following primary factors favor continued detention:

a. Commitment

1. The detainee went to Mecca and attended a course at the Al Harum Mosque where met a Saudi individual who described jihad and persuaded him to join.
2. The Saudi individual introduced the detainee to another individual who was to be his point of contact regarding the jihad in Afghanistan.
3. On 6 September 2001 the detainee flew from Doha, Qatar to Karachi, Pakistan on Qatar Airlines, checked into the Mustafa Hotel, and called his point of contact for jihad. The detainee paid his own way to Afghanistan.
4. On 10 September 2001 the detainee departed the Mustafa Hotel and traveled to the al Farouq training camp where he arrived on 11 September 2001.
5. The detainee related he resided in the mountains for approximately thirty days while waiting to cross the border, which was closed. The detainee saw this as a barrier to his ability to return home.
6. The detainee claimed he needed to return home because he was ill. He reported that he traveled to Kabul, the to the town of Buldak and on to a checkpoint where he boarded a bus that drove to Quetta, Pakistan, where it was stopped by the Pakistani police or military. The detainee was captured and taken to jail, where he remained until he was turned over to U.S. Forces.

b. Other Relevant Data

1. The detainee reported that upon his arrival at al Farouq he learned that Usama bin Laden owned the camp.
2. The detainee reported that while residing in the mountains of Kabul in September 2001 he realized the jihad was a battle of Muslim against Muslim.

I'm not for or against just providing some facts about the case.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Okay. What about it?

It's a worthless piece of paper saying that you owe money to the government. It actually means nothing, just like the constitution. It is a meaningless piece of paper that controls your life. They are one and the same.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I have many more examples as well.

Though I don't see the corrolation between the local cops beating you for a remark you made, instigative or not, and the government taking away your liberties, you have my condolences.

Cops have beaten people since they've been around.

Nice. Now being patriotic and caring about your country means you have a psychological disorder?

There's nothing wrong with loving your country. There's something a bit affright about calling anyone with a differing opinion or maybe one that you just don't understand yet, a commie.

Originally posted by mybigunit
First off the government wont paste our faces on the news? What about the 2 Seattle guys on the ferry who the FBI insisted their names and faces needed to be pasted all over because they might be terrorists and then come to find out they were here on business.

Hey, it happens. It has happened. People are incarcerated and given the death penalty every year for crimes they didn't commit.

Yes it can happen to you or me and it makes no difference if your last name is Smith or Muhammad.

It can happen to us, sure. I'll agree to that. My statement was inferring that they're not out to "get" you.

The government isnt elected to protect us from ourselves you are not right.

Actually. Yeah it is. Who is congress? Who is the president? What are they sworn to uphold?

The government of a free nation is elected to protect the people from others who would stop people from making their own choices stupid or not.

The government is also elected to protect the people from theirselves. Enemies whether foreign or domestic.

Franklin's quote needs to be thrown out are you serious? In a free nation if you have to sacrifice your liberty for security then you really do deserve neither. That quote is as straight as they come.

As I said earlier, you really haven't sacrificed any liberty. I think a more just cause would be to not sacrifice truth for emotional comfort.

Nationalistic egotist? I live in America and I dont want to be part of one world under one government sorry.

Well, you already are in essence. It's just unsaid, unspoken, unrealized.

I just forked over $30k to the IRS in income taxes thats the most recent. Income tax is unconstitutional.

Agreed! But the IRS isn't an apparition of the Bush regime! It's been around since the 1862 created by Lincoln and the congress at the time!

Frankly Im a slave now and I dont want to be even more under some NWO policy.

I don't believe that's the way it would be. If anything your freedoms would be greater and the hassle to travel to and fro would be lessened. A one world government can only lead to improvement and an eventual unison of citizens.

reply to post by scarlett1125

They could start rounding us up before they declare anything and we would not know it was coming until it was too late.

I don't know where this naieve notion that someone will "declare" martial law ever originated. Martial law is not something that gets declared across the airwaves by some leader. It just happens. What we are seeing in this case here IS MARTIAL LAW!

Originally posted by billybob
lemmings are sad...
...and that was just propaganda, too. lemmings don't have mass suicides, unless someone CHASES them off the cliff.

I'm trying desperately to clutch the meaning of your post.

I am not a cheerleader for the doomed?

reply to post by CaptGizmo


Good overview, and thanks for that. But I hardly think we could consider any of this factual without solid evidence. And this certainly is not evidence, these are accusations.

Not trying to be obtuse, so thanks again for your post.

reply to post by CaptGizmo


Thanks for the information. Unfortunately, I know that this case is not the best example of my point...

No, wait, it is.

Right now, this man was associated with terrorists organizations. I will take the gov't at its word, because I have no other info either. Now, why wasn't he tried in federal court for the crimes mentioned? There is no fear of letting him out, because obviously they would deny him bail. Then you try him on the evidence, to a jury, and then put him in prison. (if he is guilty)

You must understand the precedent. What if the next terrorist group is declared to be a web site? Or a church? Or a gun club? Look at my sig. Look what they are doing to people BASED ON A PRANK CALL! What if they declared you to be a terrorist and sent you away, without any rights? These laws and systems are unnecessary if we were doing the right job when it came to border security! You say that an american soldier would not round up his own people. I tell you this, I would have done it if I was shown that they were in gross violation of anti terror laws. Now take a look at these new laws.... Anyone, and I mean you or me, could be declared an enemy combatant right now, and all it takes is a need, or reason, to make them do it. I bet a bunch of German Jews were sitting around discussing this very same thing as Hitler rose to power.

"do not go blindly into that dark night"

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

It's a worthless piece of paper saying that you owe money to the government. It actually means nothing, just like the constitution. It is a meaningless piece of paper that controls your life. They are one and the same.

Not at all the same. While I agree that fiat currency is indeed worthless, the Constiution certainly is not. It is the very deifnition of what it means to be an American. If you think that's worthless, then you really are an enemy of all Americans.

Just because it is on paper, does not make it worthless. For example, a dollar may be worthless paper in the overall scheme of things. Not based upon anything of tangible value. But the title to my car is not worthless. It is a piece of paper, but not worthless. It is worth my car.

Having to explain something as simple as that really is making me begin to wonder why I even bother to engage in this discussion with you.

There's something a bit affright about calling anyone with a differing opinion or maybe one that you just don't understand yet, a commie.

Com"mu*nism\, n. [F. communisme, fr. commun common.] A scheme of equalizing the social conditions of life; specifically, a scheme which contemplates the abolition of inequalities in the possession of property, as by distributing all wealth equally to all, or by holding all wealth in common for the equal use and advantage of all.

Note: At different times, and in different countries, various schemes pertaining to socialism in government and the conditions of domestic life, as well as in the distribution of wealth, have been called communism.

-Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Is this or is this not what you are advocating?

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Not at all the same.

Yes, there are similarities.

While I agree that fiat currency is indeed worthless, the Constiution certainly is not.

So one piece of paper is higher than another.

It is the very deifnition of what it means to be an American. If you think that's worthless, then you really are an enemy of all Americans.

Why? It is my constitutional right to express such. An enemy of Americans? Now you're acting exactly like the government, why not just label me a terrorist while you're at it, commie came easy for you.

Just because it is on paper, does not make it worthless. For example, a dollar may be worthless paper in the overall scheme of things. Not based upon anything of tangible value. But the title to my car is not worthless. It is a piece of paper, but not worthless. It is worth my car.

Because you sold your soul for it. Just like every other slave embraced by this fence. The title to your car embrazens the parallel value as the money you payed for it. It only means as much as you allow it to be which ultimately is your own personal subduance to the government and automotive contractors. Try building your own car.

Having to explain something as simple as that really is making me begin to wonder why I even bother to engage in this discussion with you.

Are you frustrated because I constitutionally question your constitution? Or is it because you think I'm being unconstitutional, becuase I am can assure you that I am well within the confines of the constitution.

Is this or is this not what you are advocating?

Well that's better than asserting me to be a dirty commie, and for the record: No.

I am not saying that I don't appreciate and enjoy this country and it's rights. I love bicameralism, unitary states, unicameral systems and subnational entities.

I don't like politics, I don't like the party fights, I don't like special interest groups and vouchers.

I'm simply using intellect and logic with and on the constitution and your debateful stances.

[edit on 26-5-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]