US headed toward a total economic and social breakdown…

double post

[edit on 9/6/08 by FatherLukeDuke]

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Not sure what you're trying to say: The Hellenic states were taken over by Rome and Rome eventually collapsed due to a series of massive invasions by Germanic tribes.

Do you think Germans are massing at your borders?

Actually the Germanic tribes were quite often encouraged to settle within Roman borders and fought for the Romans against Slavic tribes that invaded. The Franks, for example, carried on Roman military tradition for a few centuries after the fall of Rome and eventually became the French.

Anyhoo, I digress. The actual cause for Rome's fall wasn't the invasions themselves, but Rome's inability to defend itself against them.

Inflation, a troubled economy, internal rebellion and corruption were what cause the degeneration of the Roman military, making it incapable of defending itself when the Slav's came. The best legions that Rome had to offer in the 4th Century were squandered in failed campaigns, or butchered when erroneously sent against the numerically superior Slavic tribes without reinforcements.

And those Legions of the 4th century were but a shadow of their former glory just a couple of centuries prior.

Because of slowly worsening economic conditions, a shortage of gold (money) due to their inability to fight off the Slavs, they had to buy them off, as a result they cut their defence spending. Over time, the quality of the Legions diminished, their equipment and training was sub-par and their tactical prowess was nothing compared to the glory days.

The majority of the troops fielded by Rome in the 4th and 5th century were mercenary tribes and other non-citizen soldiers which would have barely been a match for 1st or 2nd century auxiliaries, never mind front line Legionnaires.

So, in short, although the timescale of Rome's demise was longer, the pattern is the same as what we see today. A troubled economy, a stretched military, recruits being taken from anywhere they can get (Mexican immigrants gaining citizenship in return for service), the parallels are there and pretty soon, the USA will meet it's Attila and the slide will be complete.

[edit on 9/6/08 by stumason]

Originally posted by bronco73
Won't happen. The USA is by far the largest consumer of pretty much everything there is to consume. The world won't let the USA collapse.

Here is something to think about. I'm not saying mystery babylon=USA, but it is beginning to look that way. I have added italics to show some pertinent things that show that it could POSSIBLY be the USA. If not, then the USA would have to have a catastrophic economic failure before those highlighted verses could apply to somewhere else.

Revelation 18:4-20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.




[edit on 9-6-2008 by sir_chancealot]

money.cnn.com...

And it begins... It is like a snowball effect. We are nothing alone but together we are quite a force, the American Consumer! It is true that doom and gloom ecnomic news leads to further down fall however I do not believe we should be optomistic when indeed we have a SERIOUS problem on our hands. I agree the US is losing our hold on the globe, which makes our downfall even more certian. Europe and Asia will go on just fine thank you very much and as evidence to that the dollar is dropping in relation to currencies of other nations!

money.cnn.com...

And it begins... It is like a snowball effect. We are nothing alone but together we are quite a force, the American Consumer! It is true that doom and gloom ecnomic news leads to further down fall however I do not believe we should be optomistic when indeed we have a SERIOUS problem on our hands. I agree the US is losing our hold on the globe, which makes our downfall even more certian. Europe and Asia will go on just fine thank you very much and as evidence to that the dollar is dropping in relation to currencies of other nations!

money.cnn.com...

And it begins... It is like a snowball effect. We are nothing alone but together we are quite a force, the American Consumer! It is true that doom and gloom ecnomic news leads to further down fall however I do not believe we should be optomistic when indeed we have a SERIOUS problem on our hands. I agree the US is losing our hold on the globe, which makes our downfall even more certian. Europe and Asia will go on just fine thank you very much and as evidence to that the dollar is dropping in relation to currencies of other nations!

money.cnn.com...

And it begins... It is like a snowball effect. We are nothing alone but together we are quite a force, the American Consumer! It is true that doom and gloom ecnomic news leads to further down fall however I do not believe we should be optomistic when indeed we have a SERIOUS problem on our hands. I agree the US is losing our hold on the globe, which makes our downfall even more certian. Europe and Asia will go on just fine thank you very much and as evidence to that the dollar is dropping in relation to currencies of other nations!

reply to post by sir_chancealot


I have read all the posts in this thread, and found that most are thoughts I have had and feared for sometime now.
There are those of you who quote or retell History quite eloquently, and the intelligence of those (most anyway) posting is evident.
With all that I have read and know,I still do not know one thing...what am I to do? Do I move out of the country? Do I stand and fight greed in its purist form ? If so how? How do I keep my gas tank full? And my children from starving? When there are only so many hours a day that you can work and at the end of that day you are still living not week to week but minute to minute, what do you do?

I am a wife and a mother of 4. We work hard, have no credit card debt (thanks to my husband believing in always paying with cash) we do not splurge or live a lavish life style. We have no insurance, but do not qualify for assistance. We have a daughter with extreme health issues that put us in the ranks of those whom lost their homes to foreclosure.
What is most alarming about all of that is the sad fact that we are not alone in our boat...I look to my left and to my right and there are families just like mine and worse off struggling every day and for what?
For our government to tell us "its all going to be ok" ?
HOW is it all going to be alright?
We The People see whats wrong , the rest of the world sees what is wrong, we all talk about what is wrong...thats on the table.
What I want is some kind of idea of what it is WE, you, me the guy next door and his family...WHAT SHOULD WE DO ? or more to the point.. What CAN we do?
Everything in my being tells me to not give up, I`m stubborn that way and my Faith in God won't let me just give up. But I have run out of ideas of what to do next, what to cut out of the expenses, how to tighten my already tight budget...

I KNOW it is only going to get worse, and I KNOW that our government could not care less, I am an uncounted statistic.
What I do NOT know is what to do now....if you have a realistic clue..please do share because I`m tired of all the stuff I know..I want to learn something new & helpful.

reply to post by TxLady


A new way is being made. You will have a choice to go or to stay. There is going to be a more information comming out here shortly in preperation of the events that are unfolding until the reigns are tightened fully from the powers that be.

A new free way. Way to do what you'd like. To have prosperity, To have freedom.

u2u me if you want some info that will change your view.

reply to post by TxLady


i feel your pain. i just graduated from college and now am watching civilization imploding from within. what you have to realize is that although the approach of this destruction is scary IT HAS TO HAPPEN. whether you like it, or i like it balance must be restored.

the economy isnt having all these changes by accident. all this was planned ...actually it was engineered to fail. the people who did this stuff are the titans of wall street and london. greedy business men who will do anything for a buck because they know money is power. and all their plotting and planning is about to blow up in their faces.

much like an infected gangrenous limb must be amputated, these people have to go. this economy has to collapse. it has been artificially propped up for a century. what goes up must come down.
as for your family no one wants bad times to happen, but they do.

the best thing you can do is keep a clear head and understand why whats happening is happening. then tell everyone that will listen. when the economy collapses people will want to know some answers and who to blame, and you can be sure the corperate media whores wont point the blame at where it needs to be pointed!

As to why americans don't save... (and this doesn't just apply to individuals but to businesses and corporations as well...)

See the following video about what the goals of the Federal Reserve were when it was instituted, and pay special attention to when he talks about something they call "private capital formation". This is just another term meaning "savings".

Basically, before the Fed was created, the bankers were not enjoying the fact that the trend showed people and businesses were saving money to reinvest. They wanted to turn this trend around and seduce the people and businesses back to the banks for money, so the banks could charge interest on it. It wasn't a "good" thing if people and businesses were out of debt and able to save. It would only be "good" if they depended on the banks for money and found themselves in debt to them.

For the most part, the banking system has been VERY successful at enticing people to take out loans to finance all the aspects of business and commerce. There is so much debt in this country now, that even if every dollar everyone had in every wallet, and every checking and savings account was spent to try to get out of debt, we'd only get rid of 10% of it. Today the astonishing fact of the matter is that there is ten times as much debt in this country as there is money to pay for it. Illogical as it may sound, it is in fact true.

Where did all the debt come from if there isn't even that much money to loan? Good question. Answer? The banks can loan money that doesn't exist.


So, the predicament we find ourselves in is a terrible situation for all of us. But there are a few people who are very happy with it. Just realize that there are some who are very actively promoting the continuation of debt in the world, and what's good for the banks is bad for the people.

Google Video Link

[edit on 9-6-2008 by ianr5741]

I do not know that it is actually relevant any longer as to who is to blame.
There are those that suggest that it is the American people not its government that is to blame for sitting by and letting it happen. So there are arguments on all sides as to who is to blame..none of which changes anything.

My head is clear, but that is the problem. I believe in balance, I get what needs to happen what I do not get is how the heck am I going to get the meds that keep my little girl alive after the economy and our country fall flat on their face?
They are high enough now that affording them is a stretch. My concerns are limitless and I`m still looking for answers.. there is no real comfort so I`m looking for measures to take

reply to post by uknow_me72


I am new to the forum so I cant private message as of yet. I`m trying to get enough post accumulated so I can..I am interested in what you have to say.

This isn't the first time this country has faced a similar problem.

If you ever remember hearing the phrase "Shay's Rebellion" in your history class, then you know what I'm about to talk about.


In the late 1700's, farmers in New England were finding themselves increasingly in debt to banks. They eventually reached the point that with compound interest would eat up any potential to eke out a living off their farms. They wanted debt relief.


Mathematically, they found that no matter how well their crops did during the season, the most they could possibly sell them for in the market wouldn't be enough to keep from getting further into debt with the banks. The monster of compound interest had grown larger than their ability to keep up.


You can argue all you want about whether or not the farmers knew what they were getting in to, but history shows that bankers are always willing to cut interest rates to attract customers, then raise them once they have them hooked. Once the hook catches, they pull the line. This is how they enslave populations of workers.


So the farmers were doing their best, working hard and hoping and praying that they could sell their crops for enough to pay down the debt and still have something to live on. They found that they simply couldn't. Because of the enforcement of compound interest on loans, there was no way they could get out of debt no matter how hard they worked.


Banks love compound interest, because it allows them to enslave people who are in the bottomless pit of debt, or foreclose on their property.


As more farmers lost their land, and many of them went to jail, they began to rebel. They closed the courts down, broke their neighbors out of jail, and refused to pay the debts any longer.


The government answered with military force.

Well thought-out write-up OP. I don't think you're out of line on any of it. I'll tell you........ I'm personally sick of blaming my problems on the PTB and I'm sick of worrying about the repercussions of fanatical plans of a NWO. I think we -- humans, globally, -- have to think hard about shifting our paradigms to a place where we can live a self-sustainable existance. Our ancestors worked their tailfeathers off, building things, growing things, making a life. I think we went WAY too far with the application of technology. Technology itself is not the demon, but our sloth and dependence upon it is, IMO.

So what to do? Yes, the two of us work and contribute to the patterns and requirements of society. All the while, though, in the background, we're changing our modes. Growing much of our own susentance..... at first in containers, and now elsewhere. Creating cooperatives with other like-minded folk, maximizing the land available to us. Now folks in the city, this is a harder row for you to hoe, but not impossible. I think we need to consider, what if the economy crashed this weekend? Your stores would only have a few days worth of food, and in a crash your duckets don't mean diddly anyway. How will you feed your family? Can you fish? Have the equipment and skills? Develop them.

I don't see a complete societal crash in the U.S. -- I have to hope that the U.S. hasn't lived so high on the hog for so long that they've completely forgotten how to do things for themselves. Again, city centers seem particularly endangered to me in this regard. Other places in the world are striving for the U.S.'s level of technology, subsistance and some of the cultural things that come with it. We can learn from people who know how to stay alive, but I feel we must make goals toward that end.

The two of us are learning how to do without air conditioning. We're not so evolved that we're willing to give up our TV and beloved internet, and in fact, the lack of communications is one of the most frightening facets of TSHTF to me.

I hope the U.S., which I love and always will, doesn't suffer an economic crash. I think the patterns are there to suggest a strong trend toward that though. Not completely imminent, but strong. I don't know what the solution for that is...... somehow I think it has little to do with political pundits, and more to do with our own responses.

reply to post by TxLady


actually the american people and in fact people all across the world are waking up to whats going on. food riots in egypt. fuel riots in spain. protests against the bilderbergers in virginia. people are realizing these used car salesmen have been selling us lemons for a century and they are starting to speak up. momentum is increasing.

WHO did this to us is of the utmost importance. these bankers will just point the blame at someone else and retreat to their islands in polynesia, ranches in uraguay, and penthouses in dubai while the rest of us cant afford fuel to the supermarket or bread to buy it.

if the people who did this crime are not brought to justice they will come back and do it again. history proves it. i will not live knowing that my offspring might have to deal with these aholes. this stops here and now.

reply to post by argentus

My family & I live in the country, with a network of farmers around us as well. We also hunt and fish. I do not worry as much about being able to eat but I do have medical concerns. I`m trying to figure out how to prepare for that now, the doctors wont prescribe enough for me to stock up and before we would drive to Mexico and purchase my daughters meds, now with gas being 4$ and rising that is no longer an option.

As a Mother naturally my first concerns are for my children...not just what will be left for them in the future in the event that our Nations economy completely falters , but how during that fall I can get them the things that we are Dependant upon. RX meds and health care. I do not know any Doctors off the top of my head that are going to be willing to see people for free...nor any pharmaceutical companies that are going to just start handing necessary medications out either.

If there are an medical experts out there with an idea lemme know because my Doc thinks I`m nuts for even worrying about it.

reply to post by TheRepublic


I`m ALL for justice...just not sure that that would stop history from repeating itself. Even when the biggest bullies have been taken down...someone is always willing to fill their shoes and put a new twist on the same old wrongs.

reply to post by TxLady


Well it depends on what part of the glass you look at. Its the governments fault for sure that we are in the situation we are in. Poor money management and policies both home and abroad have put us in this scenario. But the other part of the glass is we the people have let them do it. Most of the people listen to all the government talking points and follow it like the bible instead of thinking outside the box and for themselves. Its almost sad.

Well, OK I enormously simplified the end of the Roman Empire for the sake of a snarky comment and your sophisticated reply shames me.

Originally posted by stumason

Actually the Germanic tribes were quite often encouraged to settle within Roman borders and fought for the Romans against Slavic tribes that invaded.

True, and the Roman legions hadn't been made up of Italians for a long time. Were Rome ended and the "barbarians" had become very blurred since the start of the 2nd century when they stopped bothering to "Romanise" - even in Dacia they didn't do this - they just destroyed them.

Anyhoo, I digress. The actual cause for Rome's fall wasn't the invasions themselves, but Rome's inability to defend itself against them.

This I would disagree with, although it has been the prevalent view since Gibbon until fairly recently. Though Gibbon, of course, put more of the "blame" on the adoption of Christianity. Have a read of this excellent work by Peter Heather for a different take:

The Fall of the Roman Empire: A New History

(notice the lack of "decline" in the title)

Heather pulls together much more recent archaeological and documentary evidence to show that the Empire was just as strong in the late 4th century (though with the same weaknesses) as it was 200 years ago. His central thesis is that Western Rome collapsed due to "Exogenous Shock", rather than internal collapse. I can't really go into too much detail here (as there is a lot of it), but you sound like someone who would be fascinated by it.

Inflation, a troubled economy, internal rebellion and corruption

All problems inherent in the Empire since it's inception - yet it had survived for centuries with them. Corruption especially had been at the heart of Rome even when a Republic.

And those Legions of the 4th century were but a shadow of their former glory just a couple of centuries prior.

Agreed that after the Persian defeats and the re-organisation the quality of troops, especially field one, was nothing like it had been. However they had still coped for hundreds of years - what, if anything, changed?

So, in short, although the timescale of Rome's demise was longer, the pattern is the same as what we see today. A troubled economy, a stretched military, recruits being taken from anywhere they can get (Mexican immigrants gaining citizenship in return for service), the parallels are there and pretty soon, the USA will meet it's Attila and the slide will be complete.

Now this is where you lose me completely. Modern day USA is nothing like 5th century Rome, aside from it being a Superpower, and the world it inhabits is completely different in just about every way possible. It doesn't have an economy based almost purely on agriculture for a start. You say it's military is "stretched", but it is still the mightiest force on the planet by a long way and if they withdrew to their own borders would be assailable. There is also the small fact that they have enough nukes to destroy the planet, something I don't believe Rome ever had.

Anyway Attila never defeated Rome, it was a century worth of pushing Rome neighbours across it's borders that did finish it - and only in the West.


[edit on 10/6/08 by FatherLukeDuke]