Masonic Operandi. Belittle, Bully, Bury

I asked this question in AugustusMasonicus' thread and receive no response.

So I will ask it here, fresh, where it won't get buried.

What would Masons consider to be proof, that there is a grand conspiracy to rule the world, or pedophilia, or ritual sacrifice.

Mirthful Me claims there hasn't been any good research against the Masons.

What would you accept as "good research" there, Mr Mormon Mason? Why must you belittle?

So far, what I've seen, is a major amount of evidence AGAINST the Masons, after some excellent research by excellent writers, and the Mason have a pack of 10-15 that have a method of burying, belittling, and bullying.

If there was proof, I guess the conspiracy would be over, and ATS Masonic bullies would no longer be needed, now would they?.



[edit on 21-5-2008 by cutbothways]

What would Masons consider to be proof, that there is a grand conspiracy to rule the world, or pedophilia, or ritual sacrifice.

how about some youtube videos with dramatic music and unreferenced quotes. That's all I really ask as proof.

So far, what I've seen, is a major amount of evidence AGAINST the Masons, after some excellent research

Im guessing your research goes like this:

1. Find book about masonry
2. Upon finding positive comments, discard and ignore
3. ?????
4. profit

[edit on 21-5-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by scientist


Scientist. Modus operandi, belittle.

I asked, what would you consider proof?

How's about addressing the question?

I don't think it's an unfair question, but I'm not a Mason so probably shouldn't respond. And yet...

Here's the deal (for me). I think a distinction needs to be drawn between Masons who may be involved in dirty dealings and what Masonry is all about. There may very well be Masons involved in pedophilia, or "ritual sacrifice" or attempts at world domination. In fact since Masonry draws from a fairly wide population base, it's virtually inevitable that a few creepy crawly guys will weasel their way in there.

Now what hasn't been "proven" to me is any official doctrine, teaching, belief, or act that demonstrates Masonry itself sanctions, encourages, or in any way supports anything as disgusting and evil as pedophilia or ritual sacrifice.

For all I know, there may be some fringe group of robed lunatics calling themselves "Masons" who practice such abbhorent behavior, but it isn't any part of what's commonly referred to as "Regular Masonry". I just know too many of these guys, and if they had any inkling of one of their lodge members being involved with anything like that, the criminal justice system would probably be the least of that person's problems.

Yes there are pedophile Catholic priests. But I certainly don't believe that the Vatican encourages pedophilia. You must separate the actions of individual members of a group from the doctrine of the group itself.

Or not.

But "not" puts you in a tenuous position at best to base an argument. All blackbirds are black. Not all black birds are blackbirds.

Freemasonry isn't some monolithic entity headed up by the Queen of England and/or the Vatican (???), it's not that structured with dotted line reporting from the Lodge in Terre Haute to the underground lair in the Balkans. It's a much more loosely organized structure of guys in a fraternity sharing some common linkage with other lodges around the world.

Originally posted by cutbothways
How's about addressing the question?

point taken. I would accept as proof of a grand masonic conspiracy, if Worshipful Masters from all over the world started coming out denouncing masonry and citing specific examples of a manipulative hierarchy.

To claim masonry as a whole is corrupt and evil, and part of a grand conspiracy is to make lots of assumptions - one of which is the assumption that all masons are "in on it." If all masons are not "in on it," then it's not a masonic conspiracy - it's a conspiracy by a small group within a group.

For example, Out of 100 people, 5 are caught doing bad things. Why do you then blame the other 95, for the faults of 5? This is the linchpin on which almost every single one of your posts (accusations) rests.

Originally posted by cutbothways
What would Masons consider to be proof, that there is a grand conspiracy to rule the world, or pedophilia, or ritual sacrifice.

Not a Mason.. but what I would want to see is real PROOF. Letters, recordings, videos, dead bodies, DNA evidence, whistle blowers who actually have the paperwork to back them up, and not just showing them to be members of an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot of a sorta masonic order. *Cough*LEO*Cough*.

I want to see how Bob the plumber 33rd Mason gets his orders to kidnap a kid for a pedo party.

I want to see a letter from Mr. high government leader to a masonic buddy about evil plans.

If there is a grand conspiracy there is a paper trail.... lets see it.

reply to post by Cug


Pretty much what Cug said.

Or, barring such stringent evidence, I would accept admissions in memoirs or something similar. If we look at the elite (and it's not entirely clear which ones were masons or not), they have traditionally indicted themselves with their own words. Things like David Rockefeller admitting that his family and resources were dedicated to precisely the same thing all these years as the conspiracy theorists have accused them of; or the admission by the yahoos at the Club of Rome that they joked around about putting sterilants in the drinking water - with them keeping the antidote all to themselves, of course. Stuff like that would suffice, imo.

Also not a mason, but what I'd love to see is any sort of peer reviewed academic opinion on this. If there really were a conspiracy, you'd be able to find at least one. There is no need to decry academics as being anti-conspiracy theorists, because really they are quite amicable to them - if the evidence exists.

The problem, of course, is that the evidence clearly shows no masonic conspiracy, so no one is able to push through a peer reviewed article lending credence to the mason bashers.

All I've seen so far is one or two conspiracy theorists that happen to have a PhD in something completely irrelevant to the topic they are an "expert" on, claiming that there is some diabolical masonic conspiracy. However, I've seen far more history and political science PhDs claiming the opposite.

So, you want to convince me? Find one single peer reviewed source that says: yes, there is definite evidence of a grand diabolical conspiracy - or heck, even just a rather small non-diabolical conspiracy will do at this point. It would be a huge step forward from the current standards of evidence from ATS mason bashers: which is essentially boiled down to quoting other forums, blogs, websites, or quoting from known hoaxes (no matter how bad you want the 'seething energies of lucifer' quote to be real, it is not - it was a hoax).

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

So, you want to convince me? Find one single peer reviewed source that says: yes, there is definite evidence of a grand diabolical conspiracy - or heck, even just a rather small non-diabolical conspiracy will do at this point.

n the interests full disclosure, I want to start this off by stating that I joined Al Malikah Shrine in Los Angeles in March of 2004 in a “Cold Sands” ceremonial. I dimited from the Shrine in March of 2005 after just one year of disappointment.
...
The Shrine is awash in money, literally. IRS records show that just over 5% of the money the Shrine takes in yearly is actually spent on their hospitals and other charities. The rest stays with the Shrine to support their various internal activities. As a charity, the Shrine seems to be no better than the Red Cross… and all the Shrine labor is donated so their costs should be much lower.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yeah, we know, this isn't proof.


The guy is dead, so it's kinda hard to prove it, isn't it.

Don't worry, the Jesters will pay a visit to your abode too.

Just blow the whistle.

What a bunch of pigs.

I'm a anti-mason, who supports a dead whistle blowing mason

Theron Dunn, paid HIS DUES.

The rest of you, God help your souls

[edit on 21-5-2008 by cutbothways]

Originally posted by cutbothways
reply to post by Anonymous ATS

 

So, you want to convince me? Find one single peer reviewed source that says: yes, there is definite evidence of a grand diabolical conspiracy - or heck, even just a rather small non-diabolical conspiracy will do at this point.

n the interests full disclosure, I want to start this off by stating that I joined Al Malikah Shrine in Los Angeles in March of 2004 in a “Cold Sands” ceremonial. I dimited from the Shrine in March of 2005 after just one year of disappointment.
...
The Shrine is awash in money, literally. IRS records show that just over 5% of the money the Shrine takes in yearly is actually spent on their hospitals and other charities. The rest stays with the Shrine to support their various internal activities. As a charity, the Shrine seems to be no better than the Red Cross… and all the Shrine labor is donated so their costs should be much lower.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yeah, we know, this isn't proof.

The guy is dead, so it's kinda hard to prove it, isn't it.

The post is certainly claiming corruption. I believe he got his figures from the efforts of Sandy Frost, and the 5% claim should be pretty easy to confirm. In that case in would be "proof" of corruption and/or some sort of pyramid scheme with the regular brethren being duped by the old men.

I'm not sure that such dishonesty is against any law, though. Could be; but I'm just not knowledgeable enough in the subject of tax-exemption to say.

I am not a legal begle, but 5% may be the norm on some charities. I heard Glen Beck complaining about Harvard a day or so ago. It seems that they only spend about 5% of thier charity money each year. I would hope that both would give more, but I don't what rules they have to live by.

Proof of a Masonic conspiracy, eh Cutsbothways...

Even though you've never answered one of my questions with any sincerity, I'll answer yours in the hope that you might actually respond:

If any of the following existed in the real world, I think I would have reason to believe that there might be something seriously wrong with Masonry as a whole:

- Criminal charges which indicated organisational involvement across more than one lodge.
- Material within Freemasonry's "canon" writings (for lack of a better word) which encouraged or endorsed criminal behaviour.
- Serious ongoing investigation by mainstream journalists (as opposed to fringe sensationalists) which revealed a paper trail or communications. within Masonry indicating criminal, organisational conspiracy.

There's probably more, but that's just off the top of my head.

Now, my question to you is: Why doesn't this stuff exist?

Is it because our justice/policing systems and media are not as adept as pirvate citizen-conspiracy theorists at uncovering this stuff?

Or is it rather that the serious accusations don't hold much water, and all they really serve is an axe-grinding exercise?

reply to post by cutbothways


Consider your question answered in my thread. I hope you get a chance to read it before you get yourself banned....again.

reply to post by cutbothways

Originally posted by cutbothways
Theron Dunn, paid HIS DUES.

That is the most foul, loathsome, wretched, detestable and vile statement I have EVER read on ATS. And that is saying something.

I guarantee you if you had made such a statement in my presence you would have been picking yourself up off the floor after a bit.

I counted Theron Dunn as a FRIEND, a BROTHER and a GOOD MAN. For you to insult his Memory in that way offends me personally, more than anything anyone has ever said to ANYONE on ATS -- EVER.

Seek the solace of your own distress by extending relief and consolation to your fellow creatures in the hour of their afflication. Bend with humility to the will of the Great Architect of the Universe, dedicate your heart, thus purified from every baneful and malignant passion, fitted only for the reception of truth and wisdom to His glory and welfare of your fellow mortals.

It seems as though your threads are becoming increasingly hostile.

Although I would ask the revers, what would you consider to be proof, that there is 'NO' grand conspiracy to rule the world, or pedophilia, or ritual sacrifice.

Honestly, has the thought even occured to you that you maybe deceived by what you have exposed yourelf to?

Originally posted by cutbothways
I asked this question in AugustusMasonicus' thread and receive no response.

So I will ask it here, fresh, where it won't get buried.

What would Masons consider to be proof, that there is a grand conspiracy to rule the world, or pedophilia, or ritual sacrifice.

Mirthful Me claims there hasn't been any good research against the Masons.

What would you accept as "good research" there, Mr Mormon Mason? Why must you belittle?

So far, what I've seen, is a major amount of evidence AGAINST the Masons, after some excellent research by excellent writers, and the Mason have a pack of 10-15 that have a method of burying, belittling, and bullying.

If there was proof, I guess the conspiracy would be over, and ATS Masonic bullies would no longer be needed, now would they?.



[edit on 21-5-2008 by cutbothways]

I can't accept that all masons are in on their higher up's agendas, cutboth.

Masonry is a network of individuals, that contains a good majority of successful and influential individuals.

I don't think Masonry was invented in order to "do evil" ...
but anyone wanting to insure complete assurance that their will and agenda be done, on a global scale, would be quite incompetent, and quite ignorant ..NOT to even THINK of influencing the higher orders of Masonry towards their goals.



But, why don't you become one, work your way up, and upon risking having your belly slashed, head removed, body burned...

do a full novel worth of your findings in connection with your accusations.


I wouldn't do such a thing, because my word is my bond.


But, that's the only way you're going to get ANY actual concrete proof in order to continue the conversation you're attempting to establish here..

Solidifying a public belief that masonry "belittles bullies and burys" anything against it's concerns.

( which.. would be the 3 primary practices of ANY intelligent minded organization wishing to keep their secrets remaining as secret as possible btw.)



so..
your call.. but I doubt you'll get more than plain mockery on internet forums if you don't "do the work" required to "get the proof".

and that's alot to risk.... "doing that work"

It would also take a lot of time, energy and patience, of which, I don't know if you're willing to procure for this objective.


not my kind of business.. but you seem so apt on proving it.


-


[edit on 21-5-2008 by prevenge]

reply to post by Skyfloating

Speak kindly to your erring brother! God pities him: Christ has died for him: Providence waits for him: Heaven's mercy yearns toward him; and Heaven's spirits are ready to welcome him back with joy. Let your voice be in unison with all those powers that God is using for his recovery!

If one defrauds you, and exults at it, he is the most to be pitied of human beings. He has done himself a far deeper injury than he has done you. It is he, and not you, whom God regards with mingled displeasure and compassion; and His judgment should be your law. Among all the benedictions of the Holy Mount there is not one for this man; but for the merciful, the peace-makers, and the persecuted they are poured out freely.

We are all men of like passions, propensities, and exposures. There are elements in us all, which might have been perverted, through the successive processes of moral deterioration, to the worst of crimes. The wretch whom the execration of the thronging crowd pursues to the scaffold, is not worse than any one of that multitude might have become under similar circumstances. He is to be condemned indeed, but also deeply to be pitied. -- Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

Thank you for the reminder, Skyfloating. I have been attempting to keep a tighter grip on my Compasses lately; it has been a trying year to say the least. I just learned of W.'. Bro.'. Dunn's passing and within 30 minutes read that post...

I would have felt bad later, perhaps, but I stick by what I said. Vile.

[edit on 5/21/08 by The Axeman]

it is not so much people are looking for evidence of 'evil' doing or conspiracy
just go check it out for your self

the Masons are a free and open group and welcoming- this includes the shrine... and wther someone is a 33rd (scottish rite-not freemason although one must be a master mason to enter the scottish rite degrees..)

this would all end if people just got it right- go to a lodge and listen in
you will never be recruited by real masons anywhere
so don't wait, just seek out what you need-
if you are looking for answers and connections this is not a reason to join...
it is inside you to know.
There is no grand conspiracy- unless you mean a group of folks who will stand together in solidarity for Creator, Country, and Brethren a bad thing.

masonic finger pointers and haters should just grow up... it isn't like that. where does Modern masoinc conspiracy stem from any way?
since world war II what big awful Masonic dealing have happened? (i am guessing this board and all ATS no one is older than this)
Skull and Bones is more worrisome to me..and they are just likely a bunch of college frat boy elitists who help each other out.