What the World Needs is Less Religion, and More Humanitarians...Desperately

reply to post by bigbert81


Maybe you will be civil so the mods don't lock your thread this time?

Perceptions are what create morals, Whammy. This is how morals are made in the first place.

Absurd. Perception is only how we discover morality. Perceptions are just that... what we perceive. Its the same as truth- the truth is true rather you perceive it to be or not. It is absolute.

But Whammy, you are appealing to OUR morals and making them appear to be 'absolute', when in fact, they are the morals which you and I have accepted through our lives.

No killing innocent people is wrong whether you know it or not. It is always wrong regardless of what you accept.

No Whammy, not wrong, but INACCURATE. You are confusing the 2 words there. And I can say this because it's according to MY morals and beliefs.

Semantics... So morality is dependent on YOUR perception- so whatever bigbert thinks is moral is... If that was true then Hitler was moral just because he thought so.

Wrong again Whammy. Firstly, you should clarify what you mean by 'objective moral standard'. Secondly, people view right and wrong by the morals they learn through life and influences. You are bridging a gap that is not crossable.

Wrong again bigbert. Objective moral standard meabns a standard that does not change. Like stealing is immoral.

The way poeple learn through experiences doesn't disagree with everything I said - so what's your point? We discover morality through our experiences and relationships.

Without morals being relative, everyone in the world might as well have believed that Hitler's ways were right, but it's moral relativism that stopped him. Differing beliefs. It's moral relativism that keeps the world honest, not absolutism, because, after all, who determines what the absolutes will be?

You are exactly backwards again. Relative morality makes them the opinions of men. Hitlers opinion and that of the Nazis was that they were right. So in bigbert relative land they were moral.

The only way you can say they acted immorally is to smuggle in the absolute standard you are arguing against.

Would you have the same views about Communism if you were a Chinese man living in China? Or is anybody who supports their societal structure wrong, or just wrong in your eyes?

Absolutely they are wrong. If you believe in basic human rights that is. But I guess you don't - its all justrelative... So since the Communists think its moral to them - presto - its moral

According to who's morals? Once again, Whammy, you are trying to appeal to my own to use that as a means of getting me to agree that the above statement is correct when it is in fact, not. That is, in fact, an opinion, and NOT a fact.

If you do not agree stealing lying and murder are immoral I cant help you. I know you must. Its not opinion its objective truth. People have discovered these morals. Mostly through our reactions - more than our actions.

Morality was ALSO created and passed along to help with survival.

But morality tells us to do things against our survival instinct. It is Anti Darwinian to run into a burning house risking your life to save a stranger. It goes against your own survival but morality tells you you "ought" to do it.

Trounced' huh? Yeah right.

It's too easy to do as well... it's getting boring.

So if you want to debate in a debate forum anytime you are ready. I'm still waiting. Until then I'm bowing out of this thread.



[edit on 6/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Atheist Morality

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Maybe you will be civil so the mods don't lock your thread this time?

Yes, Whammy, and perhaps you can be mature enough to not bring that up anymore to point out my hot-headedness in an attempt to give yourself more credibility.

Absurd. Perception is only how we discover morality. Perceptions are just that... what we perceive. Its the same as truth- the truth is true rather you perceive it to be or not. It is absolute.

Absurd? Really? Is that the word you want to use here? What sounds more 'absurd' to you (according to Occam's Razor), perceptions that help us 'discover' reality, or using our perceptions (remember the Mexican apple thief) to create them as a means to continue survival and functionality?

C'mon Whammy, the simplest explanation, not the supernatural one.

No killing innocent people is wrong whether you know it or not. It is always wrong regardless of what you accept.

According to your morals. YOUR morals. I can think of when it could be justified, as there are ALWAYS exceptions. You have learned through living the life given to you that it is wrong, that is why you are saying what you are. Because the morals you've learned tell you this. That is moral relativity there, my friend.

Semantics... So morality is dependent on YOUR perception- so whatever bigbert thinks is moral is... If that was true then Hitler was moral just because he thought so.

I can see you're still using the same Hitler thing, and the answer is...ready for this?...

...it depends on the 'Observer'.

Hitler was moral in his own eyes and many, many others, while he was not moral in my eyes. Go study some basic science, and you will see what the definition of an 'Observer' is, whom you have completely neglected to mention in any of your arguments.

Wrong again bigbert. Objective moral standard meabns a standard that does not change. Like stealing is immoral.

The way poeple learn through experiences doesn't disagree with everything I said - so what's your point? We discover morality through our experiences and relationships.

No Whammy, we don't 'discover' morality, we learn it, it's taught to us. We're taught to share in Kindergarten, we're taught that stealing is wrong, and lying is bad. We are taught these things by our parents and schools and teachers. The thing is though, if you went to another culture or another time, they might teach you that stealing is necessary for survival, or sharing gets you nowhere. It depends on where you are taught, how you are taught, and who teaches you, among several other things. Culture and growing up.

Now, go ahead and wonder 'Why then, is stealing or murder wrong in just about any place I can think of on the planet now? There must be an absolute morality'. Well, no. The fact of the matter here Whammy, is that these cultures and societies have developed many of the same moralities because they found that these certain moralities are more beneficial to their survival and culture. They can let their societies grow more civilized if they decide that making stealing or murder a bad thing.

Remember, Whammy, Mexican apple thief.

You are exactly backwards again. Relative morality makes them the opinions of men. Hitlers opinion and that of the Nazis was that they were right. So in bigbert relative land they were moral.

Whammy, you are still on a one sided track here. Think about what I'm saying before you respond so hastily again.

The only way you can say they acted immorally is to smuggle in the absolute standard you are arguing against.

*Shakes head*

Ugggh, no Whammy. I can say that because according to MY observations and beliefs, he did something horrible. I think you might have a bit of a misunderstanding of what moral relativism is, according to this last quote here, so I suggest you Google it and do some reading. Please do this before you respond again, Whammy.

Absolutely they are wrong. If you believe in basic human rights that is. But I guess you don't - its all justrelative... So since the Communists think its moral to them - presto - its moral

Listen to you Whammy. 'They are wrong'. 'They are wrong'. 'THEY are wrong'. Whammy, I know you can what I'm saying here, you're smart enough, but stubborn as hell. Calling someone else's beliefs 'wrong' just goes to show how close-minded you are being. This is the same mentality that has fueled thousands of years of religious wars and deaths, because each side thought that the other's beliefs were 'wrong'. Scary Whammy, very scary.

If you do not agree stealing lying and murder are immoral I cant help you. I know you must. Its not opinion its objective truth. People have discovered these morals. Mostly through our reactions - more than our actions.

How divine that you feel that you are 'helping' me. Whammy, I do find those things to be immoral because of the way I was raised. You seem to have these thoughts that moral relativists don't have consciences or any morals, and Whammy, you are severely misinformed and wrong.

But morality tells us to do things against our survival instinct. It is Anti Darwinian to run into a burning house risking your life to save a stranger. It goes against your own survival but morality tells you you "ought" to do it.

And morality also tells you and society how to better survive Whammy. You are picking and choosing here what to believe. I've already given you the Mexican apple thief as an example, but you chose to ignore it and pick out an exception. There are ALWAYS exceptions, Whammy, and I do hope that one day you will learn that.

It's too easy to do as well... it's getting boring.

So if you want to debate in a debate forum anytime you are ready. I'm still waiting. Until then I'm bowing out of this thread.

Yes Whammy, you've made it look so easy, haven't you? There has not been a single line here to which I haven't appropriately responded to, nor a point which you have tried making to which I have not corrected, and you have made it sound 'too easy'.

Congratulations on your delusions of grandeur, and perhaps when I study more of science and you study more of religion, I can hope to one day have an actual debate with you in which someone else actually judges the responses instead of you just assuming you have put me in my place.

Until then, can't say I'll miss you.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


And in response to the video, I'm glad that I learn things on my own instead of having an old book dictate to me how I should act.

Especially one which I pick and choose what to believe and follow.

Do you really need to always be told what to do, or do you not think that people can survive on their own? Oh, that's right, they can without your God, so really, you have no grounds whatsoever to stand on.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Atheist Morality

Wow!
That is REALLY a remarkable interview.
Dawkins said "If you sweep away Christianity, what you're going to get is a Stalinist marxism."
I can't believe he actually said it!
How he stuttered when asked about atheism and violence. Is he really that absent-minded?
To despair that so many people actually respect Dawkins, the Jacobins, Stalin. What is the logical end to such intolerance?
Of course, the roman church had played it's part in it's own reign of terror in Europe, etc,..
helping these tragedies unfold,
but, these are heros? No.

[edit on 27-6-2008 by Clearskies]