The secret non-Christian anti-Masonic agenda by some fundamentalist Christians

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Originally posted by Saurus
Why would they attack Masonry the way they do?

There you go again. What will it take for you to be specific? Unless you provide an exact quote along with an exact URL, we have no idea what sort of "attacking," exactly it is you are speaking of.

The site Ephesians 5-11 claims to be Christian.

Ephesians 5-11

Their opening statement on the page linked by the URL below states:

Masonic Grand Lodges promote the teaching that Lucifer is the Holy Spirit.

This is a blatant lie.

Again, my contention:

- The site claims to be Christian.
- They have attacked Freemasonry with a blatant lie.
- Since this site actually tarnishes the reputation of Chritianity, by telling blatant lies in the name of Christianity, we can conclude that the motive is not to promote Christianity, since it does the opposite.
- Therefore, their agenda for attacking Freemasonry must be non-Christian.

reply to post by Saurus


In a strict semantic sense, they are lying. However, they do go on to attempt a qualification of their statement.

It comes down to this. This is their reasoning:

Notice the path here. It does not involve the "higher degrees" of Freemasonry.

* The path begins with the Grand Lodges, which promote The Builders.

* The Builders points to The Mysteries of Magic, which states that Lucifer is God.

The path from the Grand Lodges to Luciferianism and/or Satanism is quite short.

And the relevant Levi excerpt is this:

The Mysteries of Magic contains the following on page 428:

What is more absurd and more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is to say to Evil personified... The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the Paraclete, it is the Holy Spirit, while the physical Lucifer is the great agent of universal magnetism.

Rather than the unnecessary hype and falsehood at the start of the page, an honest person would have just stated the truth: 1) the Grand Lodge recommends The Builders; 2) The Builders, in turn, recommends black magician, occultist extraordinaire, Eliphas Levi's The Mysteries of Magic - saying specifically that it had influenced Waite and Pike in particular; and 3) The Mysteries of Magic contains many blasphemies in which the Mason - having been recommended the volume by the immensely influential The Builders - can indulge himself in. Among the most detestable of Levi's claims, in the eyes of Christians, is that Lucifer and the holy spirit are one and the same.

This is serious business to all Christians. After all, Jesus himself specifically stated that blasphemy against the holy spirit is the most unpardonable sin.

Matthew 12:31-32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Luke 12:10

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

I've never read The Mysteries of Magic, even though it's been on my shelf collecting dust for years. I think that I shall do so now. There's nothing wrong with a bit of blasphemy, in my opinion.

reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men, I find the way you argue superb, and consider you a worthy ATS opponent.

Although I do not agree with the content of the Ephesians 5-11 site, or their logic in forming their conclusions, I will accept your argument that they do, perhaps, have Christian goals in mind (however warped and incorrect their reasoning.)

I will try and find a few examples of sites which give unadulterated lies without explanation against Freemasonry in the name of Christianity...

Back soon...

Ok, here we go:

www.freemasonrywatch.org...

In the opening "Statement of Principles," they claim:

In all the Temples of the Masonic Orders, there is truly present the Smoke of Satan, and those he has duped and demented.

This is a blatant lie.

Not even an attempt is made to justify the statement.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men

Rather than the unnecessary hype and falsehood at the start of the page, an honest person would have just stated the truth: 1) the Grand Lodge recommends The Builders; 2) The Builders, in turn, recommends black magician, occultist extraordinaire, Eliphas Levi's The Mysteries of Magic -

lol. Eliphas Levi was most certainly *not* a "black magician". In fact, in his "Transcendental Magic", he spends an entire chapter warning against the practice of so-called "black" magic.

The Mysteries of Magic contains many blasphemies in which the Mason - having been recommended the volume by the immensely influential The Builders - can indulge himself in. Among the most detestable of Levi's claims, in the eyes of Christians, is that Lucifer and the holy spirit are one and the same.

Modern Christian mythology aside, "Lucifer" is simply a Latin title. There's no more "evil" in that word than there is in "lollipop".

This is serious business to all Christians. After all, Jesus himself specifically stated that blasphemy against the holy spirit is the most unpardonable sin.

And Jesus is also called "Lucifer" in Revelation. Anybody who sees the devil behind every use of the word "Lucifer" is seriously undereducated not only in the scriptures, but in language use as well.

reply to post by Masonic Light


An excellent reply, Masonic Light!

Of course, if we could prove that the authors of Ephesians 5-11 were aware of these facts, and chose to ignore them, this would strongly support my original statement...

However, it is near impossible to show that they are not simply ignorant. But then, they are equally un-Christian in claiming their statement to be true, knowing that they haven't fully reseached the whole truth.

Hmmm... New evidence in support of my claim....

I am looking forward to your reply to this one, Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Not entirely sure about Levi's proclivities towards the dark arts (whether he indulged or not), but you're right about Lucifer. Most Christians, however, are still squarely stuck in the Lucifer/Satan identification that nothing short of the end of days will shake their belief.

I have found two, seemingly, Christian sources who are willing to look at the question historically and rationally:

www.spiritrestoration.org...
www.crivoice.org...

I think some people in evangelical circles are starting to come around and admit certain things about the Lucifer-conundrum simply because they can't explain away Jesus' identification with the morning star in Revelations.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Not entirely sure about Levi's proclivities towards the dark arts (whether he indulged or not), but you're right about Lucifer. Most Christians, however, are still squarely stuck in the Lucifer/Satan identification that nothing short of the end of days will shake their belief.

This is true, but it hardly seems fair to condemn non-Christian authors because they use terms that some Christians don't understand.

The term "Lucifer" is not used in Freemasonry. However, it was used in Theosophy, and in the 19th century some Masons were also Theosophists, and used Theosophical terminology in their books.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
...used Theosophical terminology in their books

Manly P. Hall: i.e., "the seething energies of Lucifer."

The theosophic identification with Lucifer can be traced to the occultists of the romantic era; Franz von Baader for one, even Hegel is quoted as speaking about the esoteric meaning of Lucifer (see, for instance, Glenn Alexander Magee's incredible Hegel and the Hermetic Tradition, or Antoine Faivre's Access to Western Esotericism).

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


Manly P. Hall: i.e., "the seething energies of Lucifer."

Also, Pike, Mackey, Waite, Levi, and a few others. Both Levi and Pike point out that the Hermetic interpretation of "Lucifer" is the sex instinct, or more pointedly, that psycho-sexual force which the Hindus and Buddhists refer to as "kundalini". This interpretation is of course lost on 99.9% of the people that read their books, especially those with an agenda.

Hmmmmmm, bogeyman, weird fundamentalist, Christians freaks *sigh*

man, all conspiracy theorist I’ve met, were all honest, very smart ,
intellectuals with philosophy abilities. some have faith but moderately, or
only goes, maybe once a years at church for family's chrismas special or
only belief in science and philosophy, '' being only, Atheists. ''

I think man, the majority of freemason are ordinary peoples, low or
middle class workers who don't really understand they have been
'' brainwashed '', because freemasonry is a '' HIDDEN CULT '', with the goal of
hypocritly corrupting, government’s justice and democracy systems, and
trying to indoctrinated and manipulate public opinion, but also powerful
business men and politicians by infiltrating important government and
powerful organisation with freemason lobbyers, to helped the ‘’ CULT ‘’,
to install, their secret agenda for years to come.

Man, I think there is nothing bad about freemasons as long as they keep it
for them self. they can meet in their ‘’ TEMPLES ‘’, believe in their god, The
Grand Architect of the Universe or even in ‘’ Peter Pan ’’ if that's making
them feel better, but lying on their faith, with the, intention of getting new
membership, is unacceptable. Man, freemasonry is a religious, hidden CULT...
-- FINAL ! --

Thanks to, '' Above top secret '', freedom of speech
and the will expose conspiracy are being respected.


** Breaking News ** ** Breaking News ** ** Breaking News **

'' your freak fundamentalist Christians are probably ''
secret agent of the FreeCarpenters, secret society, from planet Mars.

reply to post by Road Warrior 31


hmmmmm
Joke?
Yes...no...Maybe so?
Any proof of where you’re getting your statements at? I don’t understand your logic ion where you come up with any of those claims. I'm quite puzzled how someone no higher then that of a paranoid schizo to come to those conclusions.

Originally posted by Road Warrior 31
...to install, their secret agenda for years to come.

Just curious, since you seemed to be so well informed; what exactly is the 'secret agenda'?

reply to post by Road Warrior 31


Road warrior

Every argument and statement on this thread so far has been supported by logical argument and facts. This applies to BOTH SIDES of the argument.

In order to preserve the integrity of this thread, please provide facts supporting your claims.


[edit on 20/5/2008 by Saurus]