So How Can One Mason Know That All Masons Are Innocent?

I have been lied to point blank by an ex in reference to whether or not she cheated on me. And I was sure that she was telling the truth...despite my concerns, which later turned out to be completely right on.

TrustMeIKnow

If you are talking about intuition, your ex was someone you were very close to and spent much time with. So perhaps your intuition there was justified.

I am close to, and spend much time with masons, whereas you are/do not.
Therefore, would it not be safe to say that when it comes to masonry, my intuition is justified, whereas yours has no real grounding?

I believe there is a significant difference between your relationship with your ex and your relashionship with Freemasonry. Thus, I don't believe you can rely on your intuition when trying to find fault with freemasonry.

Originally posted by Saurus
I am close to, and spend much time with masons, whereas you are/do not.
Therefore, would it not be safe to say that when it comes to masonry, my intuition is justified, whereas yours has no real grounding?

Perhaps you can interact with this for me, as a Mason:

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."

Ronayne

Handbook of Masonry, page 183

*SNIP*

"5. They swear to persecute all who violate Masonic oaths as long as they live--to ruin their reputation, derange their business, and, if they go from place to place, to follow them with representations of being worthless vagabonds."

debatt.sol.no...

I contend that you have a point, Saurus, when you mention intuition, but I also contend that Group Think is a real phenomenon and as such, the intuition you feel towards your bretheren is subject to a bias of sorts.

And before I get the wonderful, "The source is bunk because it mentions CIA MindControl," retorts, allow me to remind everyone here that MK-ULTRA was admitted to be true by the CIA. These tactics have been used on people (even within my direct experience, believe it or not ) and alot of people seem to think the Masons are involved. Now, a prepnderance of accusations has to be borne of some validity and an out right declaration of "patently false" and "Masonry is solid" is just a rhetorical counter weight.

My point with this thread is that some Masonry could very well be somewhere in the middle of this wonderful tug of war between Masons and "Anti-Masons".

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, without any personal suggestions on anyone here...

"What do Masons do?"

[edit on 13-5-2008 by TrustMeIKnow]

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow


Perhaps you can interact with this for me, as a Mason:


"You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."

Ronayne

Handbook of Masonry, page 183

It should be pointed out that Ronayne's "Handbook of Masonry" is an anti-Masonic book, not a Masonic one. His statement does not appear in Freemasonry.

"5. They swear to persecute all who violate Masonic oaths as long as they live--to ruin their reputation, derange their business, and, if they go from place to place, to follow them with representations of being worthless vagabonds.

Another fabrication. No Mason has ever sworn to such a thing.

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
Perhaps you can interact with this for me, as a Mason:

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."

Ronayne

Handbook of Masonry, page 183

Ronayne wrote that in 1887, or thereabouts... 120 years ago. The text of the obligation has changed.

*SNIP*

"5. They swear to persecute all who violate Masonic oaths as long as they live--to ruin their reputation, derange their business, and, if they go from place to place, to follow them with representations of being worthless vagabonds."

debatt.sol.no...

Let's follow the links a bit... it comes to this text from 1869, written by an anti-Mason. The Reverend writing such hateful things doesn't cite his sources. (You'd think anti-Masonry would have gotten its act together more in the last 140 years...)

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, without any personal suggestions on anyone here...

"What do Masons do?"

Well, already we're in danger of making generalizations that could be contested, because there's no governing body that controls all of Masonry, so again, the individual can only attest to his personal experiences within the lodge of which he is a member, and other Masonic communications he may have held.

In my lodge I'd say 80% of our time is spent making more Masons. We're not allowed to recruit; we don't go door-to-door trying to convert people; but each of the degree ceremonies takes a fair amount of time, and as my lodge only confers degrees 2 or 3 times a month, it can be a slow process. Once a member has been initiated, they're required to learn a catechism to prove their proficiency before being allowed to take the next degree. So there are instruction teams in place that go through the Q&A over and over until it's learned by heart. (In my state it's forbidden to instruct these parts from a book... it must be mouth-to-ear.)

Once a month we have a stated meeting which goes over lodge business... pays the bills, organizes a nice meal out from time to time, or a paintball game, or going to a baseball game. We list any ill members, acknowledge any birthdays. We awarded three $1500 scholarships this year to high school seniors. Fairly mundane stuff.

So that's what Masons do. At least from my point of view.

Conspiratorial organizations do, in fact, exist. Freemasonry isn't one of them.

You might want to check the facts available on the Club of Rome as one example. This one seems to get missed frequently when conspiracy-searchers point to more blameless organizations.

If someone else doesn't post all the facts first on this organization, I will. Here's a starting point for you:

In April 1968, leaders of ten different nations gathered in Rome, Italy, to establish what has become known as “The Club of Rome.” Its purpose was to find ways to establish world peace and prosperity. Now, this organization is made up of 100 individuals from 52 countries over five continents. The Annual Meeting of 2005 took place in Norfolk, Virginia, at Old Dominion University.The Club of Rome is charged with the task of overseeing regionalization and unification of the world.

The Club’s ultimate goal is open to conjecture because its meetings and publications are mostly secret. But on September 17, 1973, the Club released one report to the public, entitled “Regionalized and Adaptive Model of the Global World System.” In this document, the Club revealed its ultimate goal as dividing the world into ten political and economic regions (although instead of calling these “regions,” the Club refers to the proposed divisions as “kingdoms.”)

This is a powerful organization with worldwide influence. Nevertheless, critics charge the Club of Rome with strong elitism in its membership, which interlocks with European power elite groups such as the Bilderberg Group and Anglo-American elite members.

Those ten divisions the Club of Rome has in mind for the world are as follows:
1. America, Canada and Mexico (Does this grouping sound familiar, with NAFTA and plans for the “North American Union” recently in headlines?)
2. South American nations
3. Western Europe
4. Eastern Europe
5. Australia and New Zealand
6. Japan
7. South Asia
8. Central Asia
9. Africa, Middle East (including most Islamic countries)
10. The rest of Africa

The “ten kingdoms” referenced by the Club are more commonly referred to now as the New World Order. This newer term was devised by Presidents George H. W. Bush (the senior) and Mikhial Gorbochov of Russia.

TMR

reply to post by TMR-1


Much food for thought...I thank you.

This link from the Club of Rome website is actually quite interesting. I am interested in the very detailed attenuation and categorization of "World Problems".

Work in the Future

New technologies have created a real revolution in reducing the amount of human work thanks to robots, computers, telecommunication and now the combination of these different items which we call Multimedia. Another aspect of this new situation is due to the globalization of the economy and the effect of delocalization. The Club of Rome is studying what is the future of work, how the amount of available work will be distributed. Therefore how human life, so long based on work, will be organised in the future, what will be the activities of human beings, in terms of work, occupations, services for the community, training, leisure, etc.

clubofrome.org

That definitely entails a long term mind set.

But I am sure that I would be remiss if I didn't look into other links and opinions, etc...much food for thought here and this shall keep me occupied for a bit.

Thanks Again.

Originally posted by freight tomsen
The OP made the statement, not me. I used the statement in a question. That is all. Stop harping.

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
I find you a bit snide. I was the one who brought the "every single Mason in the world' concept and you picked it up and started using it as fuel from your side of the fence.

I asked the Masons how they can defend the entirety of their membership based on their knowledge of their ideals....you don't get to demand that the burden of proof in that capacity, regardless of whether or not you think someone lied, in this thread or not....

Don't you think (on your own)?

Start your own thread and cease hijacking this one...

You're both deeply confused.

My posts have all been on-topic and were made in response to an assertion by Freight Tomsen that Masons come to the forum every day to claim that "all Masons are innocent". His assertion was indeed formed as part of a question, but this does not preclude it. It's insulting to use this "it was part of a question" defence to camouflage the assertion.

It's like if I said "Why are all plumbers dishonest and lecherous?" The fact that it is part of a question has absolutely no bearing on whether an assertion was made about plumbers.

Got it yet? I dearly hope so, because I can't explain it any simpler.

In regards to the original post, which I didn't initially respond to, I would echo the sentiment that the burden of proof lies on the accuser in any situation like this, IF there is an accusation. But, the initial post basically merely said that it was "possible" for conspiratorial activities to be taking place, and that no one Mason could possibly know what every single one of his brethren was doing at that point in time.

Yeah. So what? It's possible.

It's "possible" for this to be happening in any classification of human organisation. It doesn't mean it IS happening.

So, in short, I found the original post, well... kind not worth responding to except in bland, inconsequential agreement.

Yeah, it's possible.

For someone to take the next step and make the accusation that it is in fact HAPPENING, well, I would hope that they have some kind of evidence for it instead of just blindly chucking mud.

Are we cool now?

Originally posted by Roark
You're both deeply confused.

*SNIP*

Are we cool now?

No.

I don't think you understand the point of this thread.

We as ATS members 'depend' on each other to help vette the truth.

You, as a Mason, seem hell bent on belittling people who have questions, when as Masons you seem adamant on presenting that you are truth.

Instead of answering these questions in kind, and providing your own non-hostile responses so as to cultivate awareness, you insist on belittling them and standing on your own two feet as tall as you can to denounce the inquiries.

Honey and Vinegar, Roark....

Originally posted by JoshNorton
In my lodge I'd say 80% of our time is spent making more Masons.

Roark...if what Josh says is true, then the fact that you aren't even trying to be civil denies the answer by Josh. So what do Masons do? Clap each other on the back when they show up at the Lodge and show an interest?

In today's modern world, you should be presenting a positive expression in all mediums to encourage new Masons. Unless there is something else going on.

We are not cool. You seem to be betraying the ideals that your colleagues are attempting to convey. Perhaps you all should get together and synchronize your responses prior to posting...which I regret saying because it implies a disservice on my part to your colleagues...

Deeply Confused?

Determine your motivations prior to questioning mine...

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow


Perhaps this would be a good time to remind everyone here that there is a much simpler way to answer some of these questions.

Why don't those of you that feel that you have a convincing argument either for or against Masonry debate someone of your choosing in a proper debate format? All one needs to do is to pop a request to one of us mods, and we'll line the debate up.

Besides, what could it hurt? If you feel adamant that you have a convincing argument, then the crowd will support you. However, you must make that case, which will prove to be much harder than one might think.

Something to think about...

TheBorg
Forum Moderator

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
No.

I don't think you understand the point of this thread.

We as ATS members 'depend' on each other to help vette the truth.

You, as a Mason, seem hell bent on belittling people who have questions, when as Masons you seem adamant on presenting that you are truth.

Instead of answering these questions in kind, and providing your own non-hostile responses so as to cultivate awareness, you insist on belittling them and standing on your own two feet as tall as you can to denounce the inquiries.

Honey and Vinegar, Roark....

Originally posted by JoshNorton
In my lodge I'd say 80% of our time is spent making more Masons.

Roark...if what Josh says is true, then the fact that you aren't even trying to be civil denies the answer by Josh. So what do Masons do? Clap each other on the back when they show up at the Lodge and show an interest?

In today's modern world, you should be presenting a positive expression in all mediums to encourage new Masons. Unless there is something else going on.

We are not cool. You seem to be betraying the ideals that your colleagues are attempting to convey. Perhaps you all should get together and synchronize your responses prior to posting...which I regret saying because it implies a disservice on my part to your colleagues...

Deeply Confused?

Determine your motivations prior to questioning mine...

Your skin is a bit thin, duder. I don't really appreciate the ad hominem beration either. Speak to the issues in this thread instead of suggesting that I have some kind of deficiency of ideals, or treacherous bent.

You WERE obviously confused in your previous post, because you were responding to one of mine as though it was directed at you. Which it wasn't.

Nor did I question your motivations. Not once. Again, you're reading into something which I haven't actually written.

I don't know what relevance Josh's quote has to this discussion. It seems tangential, to be honest, especially your subsequent suggestion that I "synchronise" efforts with other Masons in posting (something we get accused of anyway!!).

I'm fine with enquiries, by the way. It's how we learn. Freight Tomsen's, however, included a false assertion. Do I not have a right, or even a responsibility, to bring this to light? What else would you have me do??

I think you've taken this a little personally. I didn't call you names or suggest that you were stupid. The most "hostile" that I've been is to suggest that the original post was totally obvious (my "so what?" comment). But, in the end, I agreed with it.

I would take up the Mod's suggestion to have an official debate with you, but I don't even know what we'd debate about (along these lines anyway), given that I essentially agreed with your initial post.

I do tell the truth, but I have never presented myself as "truth". I don't even know where you got that.

Take it easy.

Hmmmm - After reading this thread I have to ask myself who of these modern masons really understands the true history of their masonic brotherhood? From my research I have learned the order in it's earliest stages goes back at least two thousand years and it was not the threat of mason to non-mason that stood out but rather the cruelities that took place between conflicting orders. It would be wise to remember that Syrian Knights were amongst the first to take the oath. Lies, deceit and betrayal were not uncommon.

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow

I contend that you have a point, Saurus, when you mention intuition, but I also contend that Group Think is a real phenomenon and as such, the intuition you feel towards your bretheren is subject to a bias of sorts.

Fair enough. I agree that logically, neither of us can use 'intuition' as a basis for our arguments.

Perhaps we should start at the beginning, without any personal suggestions on anyone here...

"What do Masons do?"

Agreed. Let's start afresh.

I think here, one should distinguish between "What do masons do at the lodge?" and "What do masons do outside the lodge?"

At the lodge, everyday administrative matters are dealt with, usually followed by a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd degree ceremony for a candidate. As JoshNorton says, this makes up about 80% of the time of the meeting.

After the meeting, there is a 'festive board' (dinner), which is an informal dinner among friends. Toasts are given, and the candidate usually says a few words about his experiences that evening. In some lodges, such as my own, masons bring their wives and guests to these dinners. Others are more formal and restricted to masons. Depends very much from lodge to lodge. A raffle is common at these dinners, with proceeds going to Lodge charities.

Outside the lodge, masons live pretty normal lives, indistinguishable from non-masons. Sometimes, there are planned events such as fund-raising days, or charity functions. In their own time, masons prepare their part that they will perform during the next ceremony (degree). They do research into whatever topic takes their fancy, which is often masonic. (Very much like non-masons, except that research is actively encouraged among masons).

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
So what do Masons do? Clap each other on the back when they show up at the Lodge and show an interest?

I guess you are asking what the purpose of Masonry is?

There are three great principles of Masonry.

Perhaps the correct answer to your question here is "Yes." In fact, contained in your question here is one of the three great principles of Masonry, that of Brotherly love. Masons support, help and encourage each other, the same way as you do with your closest friends. But there is a bond between masons which I can't explain to a non-mason - it has to be experienced. I guess it's almost as if masons really are like brothers.

The second purpose of Freemasonry is relief. Masons are taught to practice charity and to care for the community as a whole, to relieve the burdens of everyone around them, masons and non-masons alike. Sometimes this is done through the lodges, but mainly, it is practiced by masons in their everyday lives. Simple things, like offering to help with our collegues' workloads, volunteering to do the jobs nobody else wants to do; buying our collegues lunch/coffee when they're bogged down; doing the dirty dishes at home after supper. Of course, these things are done by non-masons too, but a mason is taught to be aware of the needs of others, and to make a conscious effort always to bring relief to others.

The third great principle is truth. Freemasons strive for truth and honesty. The interpretation of this is left up to the individual mason. A mason must find his own 'truth' and set high moral standard, and then practice these in his everyday life.

So this is what masons do. These are the reasons that I am a Mason.

So, TrustMeIKnow, I have given you here, with absolute honesty, what you have asked for. I hope it helps with your understanding of Freemasonry.



[edit on 14/5/2008 by Saurus]

Originally Posted by Roark
Your skin is a bit thin, duder. I don't really appreciate the ad hominem beration either.

Then don't earn it. You seem to be fine dishing it out.

Originally Posted by Roark
Speak to the issues in this thread instead of suggesting that I have some kind of deficiency of ideals, or treacherous bent.

Originally posted by Roark
The sigh was one of exasperation in responding to people like you with the knowledge that you will never present one iota of credible evidence to support your ridiuclous claims.

I called you a liar *SNIP*

Would you like to take your own advice? Treacherous bent? I would ask you kindly to cease pointing fingers when you yourself are doing the same.

Originally Posted By Roark
You WERE obviously confused in your previous post, because you were responding to one of mine as though it was directed at you. Which it wasn't.

I have gone through your posting history. How many times have you done the same? Quite a few. Please forgive the holier than thou attitude I am presenting, but I have little time and very real issues with your contradictions.
Shall we present your wonderful tap dancing from other threads? I would think not. It would be damaging to your relevance in this thread...

Originally Posted By Roark
Nor did I question your motivations. Not once. Again, you're reading into something which I haven't actually written.

You assume that I am unaware of indirect communication...your vendetta against freight is not my concern. However, your insistence on tearing down a confused individual is not consistent with Josh's quote...

Originally Posted By Roark
I don't know what relevance Josh's quote has to this discussion. It seems tangential, to be honest, *SNIP*

Originally Posted by JoshNorton
In my lodge I'd say 80% of our time is spent making more Masons.

So..in a more or less honest inquiry into what Masons do; as an attempt to finally dissuade the controversy once and for all; you are going to say that you have no idea why a fellow Mason would say what he did? Why are you so certain?

THAT"S MY QUESTION!!!!

I implore you to cease the defensive behaviour and perhaps think about the fact that I am not against you. That I am giving you an open thread to take down the walls, moderately, and talk on a level that your readers may understand. You are not just talking to me...you should think about that for a second.

Originally Posted By Roark
What else would you have me do??

The same thing I did...post by TrustMeIKnow...

Originally posted By Roark
The most "hostile" that I've been

....

Originally posted by Roark
I have shown you to be a liar, duder.

...

...I never said that you were hostile to me.

Originally Posted By Roark
I would take up the Mod's suggestion to have an official debate with you*SNIP*

You would lose. Topic...what are you passionate about?

Originally Posted By Roark
Take it easy.

You as well...I mean only to cultivate a rational discourse. Some Have Questions. That doesn't make them wrong. The behaviour I have seen regarding those with questions is appalling.

Saurus...Thank you for an excellent response...I have little time to respond to iit, though I will soon...

[edit on 16-5-2008 by TrustMeIKnow]

Masonic Light-
I am happy to see a wise Brother here.
I often see lately so many inflammatory (of course our history is full of this) statements against Masonry- although it is difficult to fit in to a world where work keeps you well into the evening, the friends i have made in the Lodge are excellent people and If we ever meet I would be honored. Your words have only solidified what i have learned and experienced.

are there PM's on this board?
please contact me I would love to know how you became involved.

oh and any doubters or confused people read "Born in Blood," its a good version of the Masonic origins.

and to answr the question of the thread- a criminal is a criminal if he is a Mason as well, then he will be a not so innocent mason and likely no longer part of any lodge- hence no longer a Mason.

reply to post by TrustMeIKnow


This is exhausting. You accuse me of tapdancing, even though you're obviously trying to switch topics with your quote by Josh and subsequent "QUESTION!! related to it. Hypocrisy, anyone?

Again, I haven't "torn" anyone down. I called Freight on a lie, attempted to make him accountable, and have spent the rest of the thread trying to explain to you what should be fairly obvious. AGAIN, I have no problem with questions. It was the lie I was concerned with.

I am happy to debate you in an official forum where, hopefully, you will pay more careful attention to what is going on around you.

I am passionate about truth, family, and freedom, but I will happily debate you about Masonry-related topics.

U2U me when you're ready to discuss it.

Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by TrustMeIKnow

 

Hello,

Let me assure you, there are organised and criminal Freemasons. Of course there plenty of law abiding Freemasons, but they know of the Masonic white glove treatment but do not lift a figure to put a stop to it.

I have been subjected to this form ritual abuse for nearly four years in the UK. The closest description I can give you of this horrifying experience is to ask you to imagine a sustained slander campaign, persistent stalking, mobbing at work, recognition and sneering by strangers, persistent and minor vandalism of property, covert surveillance including buggings at my home and repeated break ins with very minor thefts.

As far as I am concerned, the objective is to provoke a reaction from the target of Masonic hate with the consequences an opportunity for them to exploit. I have sought help from my Member of Parliament, David Lammy, who strangely insisted I must done something terrible to deserve this attack upon my person. I have also put my complaints to my local police station, Tottenham; they obfuscated and refused to investigate. They even refused to hand over to me cctv footage I secured under the Data Protection Act on a particularly aggressive stalking event as I went about my business.

The bottom line is that when Freemason decide to attack someone, and they do it all the time, they consider their target to be in their grip for life. This ritualised vendetta system is crucial for Masons on the make. It facilitates real estate theft, destroying business competition, controlling ex-spouses and furthering political agendas and careers.

The infrastructure of this kind of personal destruction employed by Freemasons appears to me to be a service that can be hired. I do recall a few years ago, in the US, several postal worker went berserk resulting in shooting sprees separately from each other after independently complaining of harassment and stalking at a time the US government was encouraging the management to union bust. Some of the postal workers were union reps and vocal individuals.

Finally, yes there are harmless individuals in Freemasonry but there are also vicious and criminal groups at the heart of this secretive organisation.

We are actually experiencing much of this type of harassment, read the,"problem lodge thread".
The problem they have ran into with us is, they are very weak in my small town.
We are well known here and respected business men. There are good Masons here, however they are older and are being bullied by outsiders that have moved here.
The Masons were at one time an important organization that helped build this town in a very good way.
Now they have mutated into a nasty mob of outsiders and have a very bad reputation.
Oddly, I was actually ask to join, being briefed on the situation by some that do care and want to see things hopefully get back to the way it was.
Upon our investigation, it became apparent that the Grand Lodge has lost its way also.
The fish does rot from the head.
This is the way it is, the base, the Blue lodge is controlled by the rites. The nonsense that a 3rd degree Master Mason is the highest rank is not true, complete BS.
It can be seen here on ATS the loud mouth bully Masons flaunting the percievd "higher degrees" they have, shouting down anyone that has question to reasonable conduct.
Lets have a look at what was done to my business web site by the "problem lodge officers", all of them York Rite.

s170.photobucket.com...

s170.photobucket.com...

This did financially hurt me, but, in the end it hurts the Masonic fraternity much worse.
The stupid morons did this to a home town boy! The entire town folks are horrified that Masons could and did do this. I am now enjoying much local support to clean up this mess.
Its so bad, that now I have to give civics lessons to the Grand Lodge officers, so as they know how to conduct themselves when they come to my town from "the big city". The first lesson was just posted in the problem lodge thread.

Don Dyar

Originally posted by Roark
reply to post by TrustMeIKnow

 

This is exhausting. You accuse me of tapdancing, even though you're obviously trying to switch topics with your quote by Josh and subsequent "QUESTION!! related to it. Hypocrisy, anyone?

Hypocrisy?

It bears directly to the topic. Josh attempted to describe what Masons do, granted in his experience. A logical process that is a welcome reprieve; a statement an course of discussion regarding what Masons do as opposed to what Masons don't do.

Kind of an attempt to introduce the left hand to the right hand, as it were.

Originally posted by Roark
I am happy to debate you in an official forum where, hopefully, you will pay more careful attention to what is going on around you.

Let's debate. I don't feel like I am an authority on the matter, but I'll take an Anti-Masonry stance; I'll u2u and we can work out details.

Again, I apologize to the others in this thread that I haven't gotten back to: I have been swamped of late, which causes me to wonder why I agreed to a debate.

EDIT: Actually, I can't send u2u's yet. Um, how do I find out how many more I need?

[edit on 19-5-2008 by TrustMeIKnow]

Just discovered this. Havent read the thread, sorry. Will just reply to the OP.

Originally posted by TrustMeIKnow
I have done a bit of reading regarding the Masons on this site and I have to say that I find that the arguments from Masons are lacking. The "I am in a Lodge and we don't practice world domination" argument is lame, excuse my opinion, please.

How do you know that a lodge halfway across the world isn't set up an international community service, as it were? Just because, so it seems, that anyone can gain a 32nd degree ranking in a matter of days doesn't mean that there are lodges that have different criteria set up for becoming a "32nd degree rank".

I'm just saying, Masons defending their own lodge is a valid endeavour, though the subjective nature of the rhetoric I see posted is sorely lacking.

But attempting to defend the whole of the organization and/or the name is a ludicrous passion when a priori logic necessitates that you don't know what is happening on the other side of the world.

I'm just saying, the "Masonry" conspiracy is possible. It is more likely that any 'conspirators' may just happen to be affiliated with Masonry, but the fact that some Masonic Lodges may be set up as an "international community service" headquarters is not impossible.

I will never ever discount that possibility. I originally joined masonry with vague ideas of conspiracy-theory (already being familiar with sites like this).

I joined because of the incongruency between conspiracy-theories about masons and what I intuitively felt about masons.

While its impossible to claim to know if there are not inner circles within inner circles within inner circles within inner circles somewhere way, way, way, way beyond regular masonry, the probability and believability of conspiracy theories has sunken dramatically ever since joining.

And I think Im starting to find out a different type of secret: Why masons are hated and by who they are hated. When you see hatred of masonry have a look at where exactly it is coming from and you will find certain agendas which are, themselves, highly questionable.

Look specifically at what fire-and-brimstone preachers and jihadists say about freemasonry and its ideals.