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Challenge match: Amaterasu vs Rockpuck- It's a Masons World.
page: 114
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The topic for this debate will be- "Is Masonry taking over the world?"
Amaterasu will be arguing the pro stance and will open the debate.
Rockpuck will be arguing the con position.
Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.
Character limits are no longer in effect- you may use as many characters as a single post allows.
Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.
Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.
The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.
When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.
Responses should be made within 24 hours. One 24 hour special exemption each is allowed. To be posted in this thread.
This is a challenge match. The winner will receive 2 ranking points.
Amaterasu will be arguing the pro stance and will open the debate.
Rockpuck will be arguing the con position.
Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.
Character limits are no longer in effect- you may use as many characters as a single post allows.
Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.
Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.
The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.
When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.
Responses should be made within 24 hours. One 24 hour special exemption each is allowed. To be posted in this thread.
This is a challenge match. The winner will receive 2 ranking points.
We look out upon our world and see things that don't add up. Many of us shrug them off, but some few are moved to ask WHY.
Before I proceed, I would like to establish a term I will use and its definition.
We will start by defining "Bad Guy." Bad Guy is anyone who will or may hold an individual to a contract which the individual did not accept by signature with full knowledge of the ramifications, or to a treaty entered into which was on the individual's "behalf" but was not in the common knowledge, and to which the individual never agreed.
Furthermore, Bag Guy may choose to deliberately set up conditions of starvation, illness, poison, abuse, unjust imprisonment, or makes any moves to undermine the Constitution and Bill of Rights within the US of A (amongst other countries' accepted documents).
The objective then is to establish that individuals who have taken any of these steps are of a substantially high percentage Masons.
I also wish to suggest that although there are people who have done this that are not identified as a Mason today, that the Masons have both access to and influence on those who do. I would also suggest that there is a high amount of commingling of people who promote a New World Order (counter to US Constitutional Sovereignty) who belong to other but similar groups to Masonry, including Skull & Bones, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, Bohemian Club, Rhodes Scholars, Council on Foreign Relations, and others.
I point this out because it has been suggested in many places that the whole of these societies is given the name, Illuminati, suggesting similar goals in all groups if not identical ones. In fact, it might be reasonable to believe that many a Mason has no clue what the core workings look like, but that there is a core influencing our government path away from freedom, away from health, away from peace. Away from all principles under which the US of A says it is governed by in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
So the direct membership of these Bad Guys is not required to reflect the influence of certain Masons.
Who amongst us can we say has been a Bad Guy? Surely any who supported the "Patriot" Act would be Bad Guys, since that one document did more to undermine the principles.
Although the (unelected) President is not listed as a Mason, we have ample reason to suspect the influence of the Masonic hand in his action. Both his grandfather, father and several in-laws were/are Masons. We might also suggest that his lack of such official status, yet membership in Skull & Bones and Bohemian Club, along with participation in events at Bohemian Grove, give his adamant support of the "Patriot" Act (he's a Bad Guy) an appearance of being influenced by, again, certain Masonic influence.
The War on Drugs, perhaps the effort that singularly did the most to strip us of freedom (freedom to alter one's consciousness, freedom from property seizure without due process) begun during Nixon's Presidency, was continued and escalated in the terms of:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
So here must be Bad Guys. Carter, the only President that even brought up the concept of legalizing marijuana, was the noted exception to the Masonic line up since Nixon, who, himself, was not a Mason. And, of course, Bush Jr.
It would seem that some Masons support an overarching Illuminati plot to condition us into accepting slavery, command, and imprisonment.
Though it is impossible to provide incontrovertible evidence of a Mason or group of Masons is involved with tearing down the principles of the US of A, simply by virtue of the fact that any such action was/is/will be performed in secret.
This does not mean that we cannot see evidence that some Masons have a hand in what the Illuminati groups are doing. By inference and many sources making connections, and by examining what such things as the Codex Alimentarius, adopted by the WHO and the FAO (part of the globalization efforts), mean for us as a race, and given that these Masonic Presidents (elected or otherwise) persist in supporting these goals brings one to conclude that, indeed, Masons are involved in the efforts to bring misery and death to untold billions upon this planet.
In conclusion, I will say that the average Mason is likely to have no knowledge of what the very top players in the organization are doing, and truly believe their mission is to ease the lives of others.
It is only a small bloodline group that are of any great Gad Guy influence.
Before I proceed, I would like to establish a term I will use and its definition.
We will start by defining "Bad Guy." Bad Guy is anyone who will or may hold an individual to a contract which the individual did not accept by signature with full knowledge of the ramifications, or to a treaty entered into which was on the individual's "behalf" but was not in the common knowledge, and to which the individual never agreed.
Furthermore, Bag Guy may choose to deliberately set up conditions of starvation, illness, poison, abuse, unjust imprisonment, or makes any moves to undermine the Constitution and Bill of Rights within the US of A (amongst other countries' accepted documents).
The objective then is to establish that individuals who have taken any of these steps are of a substantially high percentage Masons.
I also wish to suggest that although there are people who have done this that are not identified as a Mason today, that the Masons have both access to and influence on those who do. I would also suggest that there is a high amount of commingling of people who promote a New World Order (counter to US Constitutional Sovereignty) who belong to other but similar groups to Masonry, including Skull & Bones, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, Bohemian Club, Rhodes Scholars, Council on Foreign Relations, and others.
I point this out because it has been suggested in many places that the whole of these societies is given the name, Illuminati, suggesting similar goals in all groups if not identical ones. In fact, it might be reasonable to believe that many a Mason has no clue what the core workings look like, but that there is a core influencing our government path away from freedom, away from health, away from peace. Away from all principles under which the US of A says it is governed by in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
So the direct membership of these Bad Guys is not required to reflect the influence of certain Masons.
Who amongst us can we say has been a Bad Guy? Surely any who supported the "Patriot" Act would be Bad Guys, since that one document did more to undermine the principles.
Although the (unelected) President is not listed as a Mason, we have ample reason to suspect the influence of the Masonic hand in his action. Both his grandfather, father and several in-laws were/are Masons. We might also suggest that his lack of such official status, yet membership in Skull & Bones and Bohemian Club, along with participation in events at Bohemian Grove, give his adamant support of the "Patriot" Act (he's a Bad Guy) an appearance of being influenced by, again, certain Masonic influence.
The War on Drugs, perhaps the effort that singularly did the most to strip us of freedom (freedom to alter one's consciousness, freedom from property seizure without due process) begun during Nixon's Presidency, was continued and escalated in the terms of:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
So here must be Bad Guys. Carter, the only President that even brought up the concept of legalizing marijuana, was the noted exception to the Masonic line up since Nixon, who, himself, was not a Mason. And, of course, Bush Jr.
It would seem that some Masons support an overarching Illuminati plot to condition us into accepting slavery, command, and imprisonment.
Though it is impossible to provide incontrovertible evidence of a Mason or group of Masons is involved with tearing down the principles of the US of A, simply by virtue of the fact that any such action was/is/will be performed in secret.
This does not mean that we cannot see evidence that some Masons have a hand in what the Illuminati groups are doing. By inference and many sources making connections, and by examining what such things as the Codex Alimentarius, adopted by the WHO and the FAO (part of the globalization efforts), mean for us as a race, and given that these Masonic Presidents (elected or otherwise) persist in supporting these goals brings one to conclude that, indeed, Masons are involved in the efforts to bring misery and death to untold billions upon this planet.
In conclusion, I will say that the average Mason is likely to have no knowledge of what the very top players in the organization are doing, and truly believe their mission is to ease the lives of others.
It is only a small bloodline group that are of any great Gad Guy influence.
reply to post by intrepid
I would first and foremost wish to thank Intrepid. Not only did he, probably through frustration make an innocent remark that inspired this debate, but his handling of the Secret Societies forum in an unbiased way seriously must be commemorated. This needs to be said, as the SS forum is a near anarchy zone on ATS that defies the rules, sets its own boundaries and is the closest thing to a online blood bath if there ever was one. But Intrepid stands his ground. Keeps order. Is an icon of unbiased moderating discipline. Even when I am the target of said discipline, I cannot deny if Intrepid comes down on ME I must be doing something wrong. Seriously Intrepid, on behalf of all Masons on ATS, I thank you.
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and ideologies.
To officially start, let me describe my self. I am a 21 year old lover of history. In particular, I study the rise and fall of ancient northern European civilizations. I am also an avid studier of economics and politics, especially the interactions between the two.
I was a diehard conspiracy theorist when I joined ATS.. In fact, I used to warn close friends of impending nuclear attacks, the threats from subversive groups like the Freemasons and the Illuminati.
I watched the videos on Youtube, I Googled every major Masonic outer, I read countless books by Freemasons that outed the Craft as leading them from the path of God and into a path of darkness and evil.
Unlike many who read and believe what I once did.. I decided there is only one way to prove a conspiracy.
Infiltrate.
And infiltrate I did.
I am now an officer of my Masonic Blue Lodge, I am a 32º Mason of the Miami Valley, and I sit on every single major committee in our lodge, which is a prominent lodge in my area. At my age, in my area, my accomplishments are unmatched. If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
But i have not seen any subversive planning, no world domination.
No,
Instead, what I have seen is something that could bring a tear to even the hardest man's eye. I see men from all walks of life coming together from all races and theological origins and giving all they can to the community. They selflessly donate 100% of proceeds from drives to our charities and pick up the tab between active members to make sure our lodge stays afloat.
They are the kindest men I have ever met. I cannot quote a link, I cannot post a Youtube video.. and I understand this, and I know it's hardly proof. But take it from me as best you can, Masonry is not, cannot take over the world. But if we could, if we did, the world would be a much, much better place....
And here is what I understand, being a once outsider looking in, to an insider looking out:
We are a "private" group. We do not publicly post our rituals, our modes of recognition. There is a cloud of mystery, of suspicion and even hate that surrounds our organization. And an organization as prominent as we, you would think we would refute such barbaric claims. But we don't, because we don't care.
We really don't.
It is NOT our job to win over the cowards and the skeptics, it is our job to take those who risk everything, who walk blind folded into the unknown and putting all of their trust into complete strangers. To take said individuals and provide them with a society that will better them.
And because of this skepticism as surrounded us, unjustly, but in a way expected.
Masonry is a product of the Enlightenment ideologies, freedom for all, good will unto men.
Freemasonry for the longest time (the first actually) to allow Catholics and Protestants to sit in a bar together in Ireland.
And in many other places..
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no further questions.
It is amazing how unheard of that is even today in the most liberal societies..
And that is saddening..
It is private in nature, we hold fast to traditions. In open lodge we still have a man who stands outside the door with a dull and (in my lodges case) rusting sword. Will it stop anyone? No. We have had an entire family walk into an open lodge because our Tyler was deaf and couldn't hear them walk up behind him.
It's symbolic, as is our entire privacy. To an extent.
We do hold our rights to privacy, as any one can, we are not a publicly traded entity, we are a private institution and keep our internal business to our selves.
Is that a crime?
But to further the prospective,
Masonry is used as a scapegoat in so many ways. First off, our world is changing at an ever increasing pace. Sometimes it is amazing to look back a year or two and think "oh my god, the world has changed so much..."
What causes this change? What morphs our very ideal reality, what brings in new ideas, moves jobs over seas and causes irrational leaders to act entirely out of bounds as far as what we see to be logical? Why do we fight wars for oil, why do we suffer inflation, why do world leaders attack each other? Why does the Media lie to us? Why do we accept globalism, why do we plan for martial law and our politicians succumb to the worst possible corruption?
In a world ever evolving, not even giving us a chance to anchor down and create our own normality, we see change around every corner, and seek an explanation.
And coupled with an age of information exploitation, where anything and everything can be made into a money making website or video, we wonder about organizations that escape this.
So we see Masonry, silent, lurking, private. We see some of the world's influential people as members and we see as far back as 300 years some of even thens most influential people involved, we come to quick and irrational conclusions.
Never have I seen an organization that so selfishly donated all they could. A place where 15 guys will shoulder the burden of holding an entire lodge of 400+ on their shoulders, do the initiations and inspections all because it is something they love, something they believe in and something they would die for.
Yes, if Masonry could, it would rule the world so much better. But alas, we cannot, we lost our power, our influence, and instead of friends and allies, people think of us as a subversive enemy working for a deity of evil nature inspired by illogical and hateful ideologies.
They claim we seek to take over the world, and the claim we seek to take away freedoms..
But when it comes down to it.. Freemasonry played a pivotal role in giving America and the entire Western world the freedoms we hold dear, Masonic ideologies like Freedom of Speech, Democracy, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny...
I feel the world should be grateful for our services, not fear us. and it is OUR fault, we do not publicly display what we do.
But then again, Christ himself told us that we should preform kindness and give as much as we can to charity without seeking public recognition.
And this Masonry does.
All I can ask my opponent is this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
Just an example of unresearched facts presented as facts without credible resources. We take GREAT pride in US Presidents that where Freemasons.. or any other exceptional person (Like Brad Paisley who's music kicks butt)
I hope this thread opens the eyes of those who read it and come to understand we only seek personal and communal development. We don't have the power or the desire to "run the world" or control lives, it contradicts our philosophies (see 1776 Libertarianism) and our own moral compasses.
And again, I thank Intrepid for taking time out of his busy schedule to set this debate up, and my opponent for partaking in this debate as well.
I would first and foremost wish to thank Intrepid. Not only did he, probably through frustration make an innocent remark that inspired this debate, but his handling of the Secret Societies forum in an unbiased way seriously must be commemorated. This needs to be said, as the SS forum is a near anarchy zone on ATS that defies the rules, sets its own boundaries and is the closest thing to a online blood bath if there ever was one. But Intrepid stands his ground. Keeps order. Is an icon of unbiased moderating discipline. Even when I am the target of said discipline, I cannot deny if Intrepid comes down on ME I must be doing something wrong. Seriously Intrepid, on behalf of all Masons on ATS, I thank you.
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and ideologies.
To officially start, let me describe my self. I am a 21 year old lover of history. In particular, I study the rise and fall of ancient northern European civilizations. I am also an avid studier of economics and politics, especially the interactions between the two.
I was a diehard conspiracy theorist when I joined ATS.. In fact, I used to warn close friends of impending nuclear attacks, the threats from subversive groups like the Freemasons and the Illuminati.
I watched the videos on Youtube, I Googled every major Masonic outer, I read countless books by Freemasons that outed the Craft as leading them from the path of God and into a path of darkness and evil.
Unlike many who read and believe what I once did.. I decided there is only one way to prove a conspiracy.
Infiltrate.
And infiltrate I did.
I am now an officer of my Masonic Blue Lodge, I am a 32º Mason of the Miami Valley, and I sit on every single major committee in our lodge, which is a prominent lodge in my area. At my age, in my area, my accomplishments are unmatched. If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
But i have not seen any subversive planning, no world domination.
No,
Instead, what I have seen is something that could bring a tear to even the hardest man's eye. I see men from all walks of life coming together from all races and theological origins and giving all they can to the community. They selflessly donate 100% of proceeds from drives to our charities and pick up the tab between active members to make sure our lodge stays afloat.
They are the kindest men I have ever met. I cannot quote a link, I cannot post a Youtube video.. and I understand this, and I know it's hardly proof. But take it from me as best you can, Masonry is not, cannot take over the world. But if we could, if we did, the world would be a much, much better place....
And here is what I understand, being a once outsider looking in, to an insider looking out:
We are a "private" group. We do not publicly post our rituals, our modes of recognition. There is a cloud of mystery, of suspicion and even hate that surrounds our organization. And an organization as prominent as we, you would think we would refute such barbaric claims. But we don't, because we don't care.
We really don't.
It is NOT our job to win over the cowards and the skeptics, it is our job to take those who risk everything, who walk blind folded into the unknown and putting all of their trust into complete strangers. To take said individuals and provide them with a society that will better them.
And because of this skepticism as surrounded us, unjustly, but in a way expected.
Masonry is a product of the Enlightenment ideologies, freedom for all, good will unto men.
Freemasonry for the longest time (the first actually) to allow Catholics and Protestants to sit in a bar together in Ireland.
And in many other places..
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no further questions.
It is amazing how unheard of that is even today in the most liberal societies..
And that is saddening..
It is private in nature, we hold fast to traditions. In open lodge we still have a man who stands outside the door with a dull and (in my lodges case) rusting sword. Will it stop anyone? No. We have had an entire family walk into an open lodge because our Tyler was deaf and couldn't hear them walk up behind him.
It's symbolic, as is our entire privacy. To an extent.
We do hold our rights to privacy, as any one can, we are not a publicly traded entity, we are a private institution and keep our internal business to our selves.
Is that a crime?
But to further the prospective,
Masonry is used as a scapegoat in so many ways. First off, our world is changing at an ever increasing pace. Sometimes it is amazing to look back a year or two and think "oh my god, the world has changed so much..."
What causes this change? What morphs our very ideal reality, what brings in new ideas, moves jobs over seas and causes irrational leaders to act entirely out of bounds as far as what we see to be logical? Why do we fight wars for oil, why do we suffer inflation, why do world leaders attack each other? Why does the Media lie to us? Why do we accept globalism, why do we plan for martial law and our politicians succumb to the worst possible corruption?
In a world ever evolving, not even giving us a chance to anchor down and create our own normality, we see change around every corner, and seek an explanation.
And coupled with an age of information exploitation, where anything and everything can be made into a money making website or video, we wonder about organizations that escape this.
So we see Masonry, silent, lurking, private. We see some of the world's influential people as members and we see as far back as 300 years some of even thens most influential people involved, we come to quick and irrational conclusions.
Never have I seen an organization that so selfishly donated all they could. A place where 15 guys will shoulder the burden of holding an entire lodge of 400+ on their shoulders, do the initiations and inspections all because it is something they love, something they believe in and something they would die for.
Yes, if Masonry could, it would rule the world so much better. But alas, we cannot, we lost our power, our influence, and instead of friends and allies, people think of us as a subversive enemy working for a deity of evil nature inspired by illogical and hateful ideologies.
They claim we seek to take over the world, and the claim we seek to take away freedoms..
But when it comes down to it.. Freemasonry played a pivotal role in giving America and the entire Western world the freedoms we hold dear, Masonic ideologies like Freedom of Speech, Democracy, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny...
I feel the world should be grateful for our services, not fear us. and it is OUR fault, we do not publicly display what we do.
But then again, Christ himself told us that we should preform kindness and give as much as we can to charity without seeking public recognition.
And this Masonry does.
All I can ask my opponent is this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
Just an example of unresearched facts presented as facts without credible resources. We take GREAT pride in US Presidents that where Freemasons.. or any other exceptional person (Like Brad Paisley who's music kicks butt)
I hope this thread opens the eyes of those who read it and come to understand we only seek personal and communal development. We don't have the power or the desire to "run the world" or control lives, it contradicts our philosophies (see 1776 Libertarianism) and our own moral compasses.
And again, I thank Intrepid for taking time out of his busy schedule to set this debate up, and my opponent for partaking in this debate as well.
Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by intrepid
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and ideologies.
I thank you for the welcome, and offer the same to you. I am certain that we can be civilized. I honor you for your willingness to join in this debate.
I appreciate your description of yourself and your path. And while I will not dispute your claims of having nothing but positive experiences, believing as I do that most lodges of the Masonic Order are filled with people as you describe, I also contend that there is an unseen lodge. You say:
If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
Not necessarily. If I suppose that if I was...dark hearted, I will use here... If I was dark hearted, and had such a group feeding off power, but wanted to maintain a shiny face to the world, I would build a shiny level(s), filled with people of light heart. People I could count on to stand up and defend the organization if ever attacked.
And idealistic young men are likely to fit the bill.
I would make sure the young men rose "high" enough quickly enough that they would feel special, as if they had advanced mightily. This would increase passion to speak to a passionate group, while strengthening their loyalty.
This would be to my advantage.
Meanwhile, I would be keeping my eye out for others to exploit in other ways.
As for the religious aspect... You say:
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no further questions.
Though I wonder, I will not make it officially a question, but can you believe in Goddess and be a Mason? Or believe in Consciousness as "God" and be a Mason?
Regardless, you ask this question of me:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
None, to my awareness. "Dangerous" is in the eye of the beholder, of course, and so some things may have had danger involved (might burn one's hand on the hot pancake skillet... [grin]) As for subversive, it seems to me that it is oxymoronic with the term "publicly."
And there is the rub. ALL subversive behavior is NOT public. Which leaves us to examine things like the War on Drugs, the WTO, the FAO, the UN, HAARP, the IMF, the War on Terror, 9/11, 600+ empty prisons which can hold an estimated 20 million (ten times the number we currently incarcerate), and so on, all springing up with Masons in many positions in and surrounding power.
You say:
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
If what you are saying is true, I apologize for my source of information. I offer it here: www.directoryupdate.net...
Please point me to a better source.
Thank you for your view of your position. I am pleased it works for you.
Edit: Spelling.
[edit on 3-5-2008 by intrepid]
Not necessarily. If I suppose that if I was...dark hearted, I will use here... If I was dark hearted, and had such a group feeding off power, but wanted to maintain a shiny face to the world, I would build a shiny level(s), filled with people of light heart. People I could count on to stand up and defend the organization if ever attacked.
This is essentially the crux of the conspiracy argument.
There Must be a subversive and clandestine group at the top running the show!
Here is why/how that is impossible.
Freemasonry has stood as an organization for hundreds of years, even before the Grand Lodge of England, well into the 1600's.
As far as we know, our governing system remains unchanged, our rituals vary slightly, we even use the same old English language in our ritual, keep the Old English titles like Worshipful (meaning honorary) and we still kept the exact same layout of a lodge.
How can an organization last so long without corruption, without disolving like anything else that is big, widespread over many countries and old beyond reason?
Simple.
Design it in such a way, it cannot be corrupted.
In Masonry our Worshipful Master is elected once a year, as are all major Officer positions. This is done so that one man cannot consolidate power and become entrenched in his position. Power and authority are corrupting and unbecoming. If the officers move, if EVERYONE has a fair chance to being the top guy in the lodge.. well you won't have men thinking they are better then everyone else and move to change Masonry to fit their needs.
Our Grand Lodge is governed as follows:
All the officers in the state are invited to what we call a Communication with the Grand Lodge. It's in a big theater. The Grand Master sits on the stage behind a table with the Grand Lodge officers beside him and in front of him, the lodge is opened formally as any lodge.
We then proceed to listen to the Grand Master give a "state of the union" type address. The ENTIRE Masonic community must verbally be told everything the Grand Lodge is doing, where they spent their money, even how much money was spent on the Grand Master to travel.
Then we vote on laws (if you have seen the British house of Commons....) for each proposed law ANY officer may stand in front of the entire assembly and give his thoughts on the matter. Then we vote, by simple majority.
Then we vote in a new master. We do so for the exact same reasons we do for the local lodge.. it keeps power spread amongst the people, it preserves Masonry from corruption.
Imagine this, a world where President Bush only had one year in office. Imagine what the country would be? .. There would be slow and mild digression of course, that is the nature of politics, but he wouldn't have time to change a thing would he?
Then there is the simple matter that each and every Grand Lodge is an independent lodge within an independent Country. (state political boundaries)
The Ohio Grand Lodge will not be working with the New Jersey Grand Lodge, nor any other one for that matter, because we are our own state.. there is NO single lodge above all lodges. The United Grand Lodge of England does not control any Grand Lodge outside of England. It is a point of reference as to what we consider "regular" and not "irregular".
Though I wonder, I will not make it officially a question, but can you believe in Goddess and be a Mason? Or believe in Consciousness as "God" and be a Mason?
Yes, you may believe God to be a Female, a Male, a being of no sex even. You cannot however believe Consciousness is God, as that implies that you are your self God.
And there is the rub. ALL subversive behavior is NOT public. Which leaves us to examine things like the War on Drugs, the WTO, the FAO, the UN, HAARP, the IMF, the War on Terror, 9/11, 600+ empty prisons which can hold an estimated 20 million (ten times the number we currently incarcerate), and so on, all springing up with Masons in many positions in and surrounding power.
First off, you openly admit that there is no evidence that would suggest that Masonry is "evil" or dangerous in anyway?
First: War on Drugs.. there is no evidence linking Masonry to this, and I find it a little absurd as I couldn't even think of a most illogical reason as to why Masonry would be involved? .. Some believe the CIA is behind it, which I may agree but Masonry? .... please..
WTO: Developed by the biggest powers of the world to encourage free trade or laxed trade amongst member nations. Is it bad? Depends on your beliefs, it has opened new economies and developed old ones. Masonry does not play a hand in international trading relations though. Not sure how you came to the conclusion we do..
The UN: As much as I hate the UN it cannot be denied that it has prevented many wars in the past. Hardly Evil. Nothing Masonic either?
HAARP? A scientific study of the Ionosphere? lol, how in the world is that Masonic?
9/11? Why would Masons attack America? .. Seriously.. relaxed government agencies? Maybe. Terrorist? Maybe. Conspiracy amongst a sect of politicians and war planners? Most likely.. Masonic? ... Please.
Irrationally jumping to conclusions, without a shred of evidence nor even explanation as to "how" that is possible.
In conclusion I wish to point to a common mind set that conspiracy theorist use against Freemasonry..
People throw all kinds of theories, hypothesis's mostly, crazy ideas at Masonry, and Freemasonry does it all, anything and everything from the War on Drugs to 9/11. Ever wonder why? I do, I wonder all the time, why do people make such audacious conclusions? And this is why.. People take what they do not understand.. be it 9/11 and the war on terror, or the existence of politically motivated international trade agreements amongst developed nations or scary scientific studies straight from the movies. And because they cannot explain it, perhaps don't understand it, they push it into a box of all the other things they don't understand and blame Freemasonry for it. Because they don't understand us. They don't understand how we work, what we do, how we govern our Masonic bodies nor even what we stand for.
So they take everything bad in the world, see us as a scary secret society that sometimes has prominent members and say "Its the Masons! They took out the WTC and THEY control our minds and THEY went to war in Iraq.."
Because it is so much easier to blame one group that is clandestine, and does not publicly defend our selves then it is to pick up a book and read WHY or HOW things happen the way they do. It is a fanciable world if secret organizations worked to unseat order in the world. If there where men in costumes preforming rituals who sought to undermine your very existence. So much more exciting then Congressmen accepting bribes to make certain things happen because they are greedy.
I certainly hope this debate will allow Masonry to be seen for what it is, and weigh the options of believing in a world based off of myths and second hand guesses or factual information taken straight from reality.
Edit: Fixed BB code.
[edit on 3-5-2008 by intrepid]
Originally posted by Rockpuck
This is essentially the crux of the conspiracy argument.
There Must be a subversive and clandestine group at the top running the show!
No. To be frank, if I didn't see the evidence before me that there are conspiracies on the grandest of scales, I would not be arguing these points today. It's not that there "Must be" as if ordained, but that when the evidence is examined, a conspiracy of grand scale emerges easily from the data.
Here is why/how that is impossible.
Freemasonry has stood as an organization for hundreds of years, even before the Grand Lodge of England, well into the 1600's.
Because an organization has been managed well enough to remain afloat for hundreds of years does not remove it from suspicion.
As far as we know, our governing system remains unchanged, our rituals vary slightly, we even use the same old English language in our ritual, keep the Old English titles like Worshipful (meaning honorary) and we still kept the exact same layout of a lodge.
Hmmm. Ok. Let me ask you this:
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Question 1: How does keeping the same traditions preclude a "rogue" group from having formed the Masons (or formed within the Masons)?
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How can an organization last so long without corruption, without disolving like anything else that is big, widespread over many countries and old beyond reason?
First off, this assumes a lack of corruption. And there is plenty of evidence that corrupt organizations (governments are corrupt organizations) can grow and evolve based on a central core of traditions for many, many centuries.
Given the facts that corruption follows money/power, and that many Masons are in EXTREMELY rich/powerful positions, the idea that it is uncorrupted...
Well. Let me ask you:
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Question 2: Can you show that there is no corruption within all ranks of the Masons?
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Simple.
Design it in such a way, it cannot be corrupted.
Really? Oh, that's workable. I must ask:
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Question 3: Can you provide an example of any system that is incorruptible?
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You gave me a bunch of procedures which, although I could point out places (like verbal and not written information dissemination) where corruption could come into a structure and also have an advantage of having no record. I'm not going to nitpick through them with limited questions available.
Further on you say:
Imagine this, a world where President Bush only had one year in office. Imagine what the country would be? .. There would be slow and mild digression of course, that is the nature of politics, but he wouldn't have time to change a thing would he?
First off, if he couldn't change things, no other president could either. And if one cannot change things, things stagnate. Clearly there is enough time to do things and make changes in your system, else you would stagnate.
Also, it is easy to see where maybe Bush wouldn't be "in office" but he might rotate the job with his bloodline. And as a core, the bloodline could manipulate the country (stage attacks, build empty prisons in prep for (?)... You know).
Then there is the simple matter that each and every Grand Lodge is an independent lodge within an independent Country. (state political boundaries)
I was going to address this fact earlier. As far as I can tell, there is NOT an unchangeable (incorruptible) system in place for all lodges. Seems some let in women these days, even. Therefore, corrupt pockets could easily spring up.
Each little pocket goes about its functioning and if the heart is mainly human, its goals remain human, but if the heart is mainly dark, the pocket will go dark. Ergo, there is plenty of opportunity to meet for less than the righteous goals as are given to the pockets to play with.
Yes, you may believe God to be a Female, a Male, a being of no sex even. You cannot however believe Consciousness is God, as that implies that you are your self God.
[smile] Indeed. It does. Thank you for answering those musings.
First off, you openly admit that there is no evidence that would suggest that Masonry is "evil" or dangerous in anyway?
I openly admit that the basics as given to the public have no specific directive to harm another in any way. Yes.
First: War on Drugs..
WTO:
The UN:
HAARP?
9/11?
Irrationally jumping to conclusions, without a shred of evidence nor even explanation as to "how" that is possible.
Clearly you missed my point. The individual pieces are not what is the issue. The issue is that, with a great many of the people being Masons who made these moves or stood by and let them pass, did nothing to warn the people of implications, turned a blind eye....
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Question 4: Given that freedom is so valued in Masonry, why didn't we hear ONE Federally placed Mason stand up and say, "The War on Drugs takes away our freedom!" or "They're trying to kill most of you when they implement Codex Alimentarius!" or other addressing of the issues?
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In conclusion I wish to point to a common mind set that conspiracy theorist use against Freemasonry..
You seem to think we gleefully grasp at straws. But that was based on the assumption that the issue was these events and constructs themselves. And it's not. It's that the Freemasons in world power are NOT standing up for freedom. They are either motivating, assisting, or standing by watching as the Nazi NWO marches into these United States and takes over.
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Question 5: Why are not any of these men, so fervently interested in us and not themselves according to you, standing up and fighting these clear and alarming developments - like the "Patriot" Act, the War on Terror, the 600+ empty prisons, and so on?
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In conclusion, I want to thank those who value logic over effusiveness or special interest.
No. To be frank, if I didn't see the evidence before me that there are conspiracies on the grandest of scales, I would not be arguing these points today. It's not that there "Must be" as if ordained, but that when the evidence is examined, a conspiracy of grand scale emerges easily from the data.
But the evidence is so, so often complete lies, uneducated assumptions that lack the backing of fundamental understanding of "how the world works". Instead of understanding government, economics, history people make sometimes utterly wacky assumptions that one group is controlling everything.
The basis in which Conspiracy theorist make these judgments is quite honestly without any educated research what so ever. We see this on ATS, in the Youtube videos, in the books. No one does any real research, they just interperate what they "think" is the answer.
And tell them your wrong, and by God your a paid agent that works to spread disinfo. Where is the logic in that..
Because an organization has been managed well enough to remain afloat for hundreds of years does not remove it from suspicion.
Never said it did, in fact, I said that was a major reason WHY we are suspicious. Quite honestly it runs to privately to smoothly and to far away from the Media for some modern arm chair scholars to believe they could possibly be up to any good..
Question 1: How does keeping the same traditions preclude a "rogue" group from having formed the Masons (or formed within the Masons)?
Having "formed" the Masons? .. I am not exactly sure what you mean by this. That Masons planned before 1600's to dominate the world through subversive means? ..... Let us use common sense for that answer, Freemasonry destroyed the old barriers that separated and discriminated against individuals. It helped spread ideas that brought down the Monarchies and brought forth Democracy and all those rights you now believe we are coming after. Even though those rights where secured by Freemasons in the government, on the battle field, and the plans drawn up in Masonic lodges.
Yes, at one point Freemasonry did work to undo the government, it assisted in the Revolution and perhaps without Masonry, the revolution never would have happened. Freemasonry has changed in ideas, from an activist group to a social club. Some members believe Masonry is evolving into a more spiritual quest as it once was, perhaps digressing from social clubs and golf outings.. but I highly doubt we have the power to manipulate world governments.
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Question 1: There is a massive void of hard evidence that links Masonry to any government body and or official. How then can you say for certain Masonry is manipulating the government?
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Question 2: Can you show that there is no corruption within all ranks of the Masons?
No, I cannot as it is an ideological perspective that would have to form outside of the bounds of Freemasonry. That is to say, 5 very powerful Masons may meet together and plan conspiracies. Are they then acting on behalf of themselves as individuals or on behalf of Masonry? I would say they would be acting on their own behalf. Masonry it's self is limited to the Lodge, as a Lodge the rituals are done and that, and only that, is Masonry.
But even so, it is not my burden to show you proof of anything. which leads to this..
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Question 2: Can you show me proof that there is corruption within the ranks of Masonry?
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It's like this, you call me Evil, I can say no I'm not, and then you prove to me I am in fact evil.
Question 3: Can you provide an example of any system that is incorruptible?
Only an organization that has no Human involvement what so ever can be declared incorruptible, Masonry, controlled by men is indeed corruptible. However, we have a system in place, a very long line of checks and balances that have been perfected over the years to prevent corruption. It prevents it well.
Can a lodge digress from the Masonic community and become corrupt? Yes. Propaganda 2 lodge in Italy was a perfect example, however, it was irregular due to their actions and again I must ask.. do they do such things on their behalf, or on behalf of Masonry? .. The only people who made out with the P2 scandal where the members of the lodge, not Masonry as a whole.
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Question 3: Can you show me an instance where a Grand Lodge has been indicted in a state or country wide conspiracy?
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First off, if he couldn't change things, no other president could either. And if one cannot change things, things stagnate. Clearly there is enough time to do things and make changes in your system, else you would stagnate.
Exactly. That's the point, I am glad you understand! For the sake of progress, progress is discouraged and stagnation is the key to preserving Freemasonry!
Also, it is easy to see where maybe Bush wouldn't be "in office" but he might rotate the job with his bloodline. And as a core, the bloodline could manipulate the country (stage attacks, build empty prisons in prep for (?)... You know).
There is absolutely no proof that this is indeed happening. Bloodlines are the things of myths, not used in the US. Could someone within his political party in fact take over and continue on corruption? Yes, because the corruption benefits a large number of party members.
Political parties forming inside Masonry is strictly illegal.
For good reason.
Seems some let in women these days, even. Therefore, corrupt pockets could easily spring up
If a lodge decides to admit women, every lodge member is expelled from Freemasonry, and we are to have no contact with their lodge.
There is Coed Masonry, I don't have a problem with it.. if women want to create an organization like Masonry, so be it. However..
They are NOT Free and Accepted Masons. They are irregular.
Do not confuse a Irregular lodge with a Regular lodge. And anything an Irregular lodge does, does not represent Regular Masonry.
Question 4: Given that freedom is so valued in Masonry, why didn't we hear ONE Federally placed Mason stand up and say, "The War on Drugs takes away our freedom!" or "They're trying to kill most of you when they implement Codex Alimentarius!" or other addressing of the issues?
Freemasonry is not allowed to partake in Politics.. if a Mason where to say "the war on drugs is illegal" he would do so of his own political opinion
Not the opinion of Masonry. Masonry has members from all political ideologies, from communist, fascist, monarchist, socialist, anarchist, capitalist, essentially any ist you can imagine. And of course I would be curious how you know a Mason has never been against the War on Drugs? Unless you have a list of all the Congressmen who are Freemasons. But we won't allow this debate to continuously digress into you hating Masonry because your not aloud to hit acid.
hmm..
They are either motivating, assisting, or standing by watching as the Nazi NWO marches into these United States and takes over.
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Question 4: Do you have any proof for such an audacious claim?
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Question 5: Why are not any of these men, so fervently interested in us and not themselves according to you, standing up and fighting these clear and alarming developments - like the "Patriot" Act, the War on Terror, the 600+ empty prisons, and so on?
Political ideologies have absolutely NOTHING to do with Masonry! Good lord I cannot make this any more clear to you. You might be a pot smoking hippy, but just because you believe a radical set of beliefs that go against the current administration does not have ANY meaning what so ever on Freemasonry.
Masonry is not involved in politics, we do not discuss it, we do not give our members a set political ideology we must live be and we do NOT all conform to the same thought process.
You may not like conservatives, and I personally don't care, it has nothing to do with us.
In conclusion I would invite all members to remember, just because YOU believe something does not make it REAL, and it does NOT mean everyone believes the same as you. For instance, my opponent desires to use illegal drugs, the government says no. Who does she then blame? .. Masons? How the hell does that make sense, I seriously implore you Amaterasu to explain why you feel that because Masonry does not publicly represent your own personal political line of thought that we must be plotting against you?
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Question 4: It is almost as if you believe the Republican Party and Freemasonry is the same thing?
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No. To be frank, if I didn't see the evidence before me that there are conspiracies on the grandest of scales, I would not be arguing these points today. It's not that there "Must be" as if ordained, but that when the evidence is examined, a conspiracy of grand scale emerges easily from the data.
But the evidence is so, so often complete lies, uneducated assumptions that lack the backing of fundamental understanding of "how the world works". Instead of understanding government, economics, history people make sometimes utterly wacky assumptions that one group is controlling everything.
Which evidence are we talking about? The evidence you assume I am looking at and evaluating - or the evidence I really am looking at and evaluating? It’s interesting that you also assume I am looking from un- or undereducated eyes in a number of directions.
But I assure you I am equipped with a deep grasp of psychology - based in large part on what is observable throughout history - and have experience in banking. I know what money and power flowing through human interaction looks like.
The basis in which Conspiracy theorist make these judgments is quite honestly without any educated research what so ever. We see this on ATS, in the Youtube videos, in the books. No one does any real research, they just interperate what they "think" is the answer.
This is mere assertion here. To assume that a given conspiracy theory, in a world with unlimited numbers of examples of conspiracies that managed to come to light (and untold many that never did), is incorrect because “all the conspiracy theorists are uneducated” and “no one does research” is completely illogical. In fact, it is downright misdirective and hyperbolic.
Not to mention, I could easily choose to choose “insulted” as a way to feel over this. But I’ll keep it cool.
And tell them your wrong, and by God your a paid agent that works to spread disinfo. Where is the logic in that..
I agree that there is no logic. Because the ones we can get to are not the ones responsible.
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Question 1: There is a massive void of hard evidence that links Masonry to any government body and or official. How then can you say for certain Masonry is manipulating the government?
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The presence of so many Masons involved in, directly or peripherally, the operation of the money and how it flows. The fact we have no Masonic champion on the world level; albeit the ranks up there are loaded with Masons, not one is stepping up to the bat for the little guy.
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Question 2: Can you show me proof that there is corruption within the ranks of Masonry?
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Only deductively. See my answer to question 1.
It's like this, you call me Evil, I can say no I'm not, and then you prove to me I am in fact evil.
I never said you were anything. You sound defensive… It’s not you, personally (well, it may actually be - who knows - but that is irrelevant), but an evil within the ranks somewhere, and seemingly at the very top. You’d think some of those guys had the heart of a lizard!
Only an organization that has no Human involvement what so ever can be declared incorruptible, Masonry, controlled by men is indeed corruptible. However, we have a system in place, a very long line of checks and balances that have been perfected over the years to prevent corruption. It prevents it well.
I saw nothing in what you described Masonry to be that in any way precluded distortion, interpretation, or the ability to be manipulated. Although that does not mean necessarily that these thing have taken place from time to time, the chances of any one of them happening frequently at the level of national and world politics is extremely high. Together and there is a virtual guarantee.
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Can a lodge digress from the Masonic community and become corrupt? Yes. Propaganda 2 lodge in Italy was a perfect example, however, it was irregular due to their actions and again I must ask..
Question 1 (2 &3?): Where are the data that show that that was particularly “irregular?” Why should that be believed? Just because you say so?
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do they do such things on their behalf, or on behalf of Masonry? ..
Now we have to wonder what the true definition of “Masonry” is. You can say you know, and even think you know, but do you know you weren’t set up with this belief…
If 20 men gather to make a choice, and 20 are Masons, would we not say the Masons are meeting, although it many not be on “official” business?
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Question 3: Can you show me an instance where a Grand Lodge has been indicted in a state or country wide conspiracy?
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Of course not. Individuals are prosecuted, not the group.
Bloodlines are the things of myths, not used in the US. Could someone within his political party in fact take over and continue on corruption? Yes, because the corruption benefits a large number of party members.
Well, I say you’re wrong since there seems to be very clear cut evidence that many of the Masons in the top echelons are related by blood. In fact, all Presidents are of royal blood. Why would this be? That so many of our upper class are of royal blood?
Are men, all of whom can be shown to be from the same families, and many claiming to be Masons, meeting and planning, while out pops the whole picture we see today, to be trusted?
They are either motivating, assisting, or standing by watching as the Nazi NWO marches into these United States and takes over.
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Question 4: Do you have any proof for such an audacious claim?
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Yes. It is deductive. How many in Congress are Masons? How many Supreme Court Judges? How many in Media? How many on committees, in groups, appointed, and so on? A high percentage. If all Masons were really motivated to stop this takeover, we would see resistance. We would see many voices speaking for the Human heart. They would question FEMA and their prisons, when we already incarcerate 25% of the world’s incarcerated with only 4-5% of the world’s population. What do all these Masons see when they look upon those prisons? “Good for me I’m a Mason and can get underground when the big one hits?”
With all these Masons, you would think a great big media stink would happen regarding Codex Alimentarius and the planned starvation/poisoning of the masses.
You would thing we would see a hew and a cry about property seizure without due process - a blatant violation of the Fourth, and yet…the Media never bring it up, really.
You would think that they would push for a GM label on all genmod food, because we should have the freedom to choose! (But no, we pressure Africa NOT to require that!)
Somehow they are never mentioned, or mentioned as if they are debatable whether they bode extremely ill for Humankind. All these “kind souls” who work together for “Universal Good” can’t make a stand together against these genocidal and horrific realities?
You seem hell-bent on suggesting that there is a way to rationalize the ability to shackle thousands in rail cars, the possibility of imprisoning millions upon millions more than we do now, and the projected deaths of billions -
…with “partisan” politics.
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Question 4: It is almost as if you believe the Republican Party and Freemasonry is the same thing?
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Although this says it’s a (misnumbered) question and has a question mark at the end, it is not a question.
It is suggesting that I might equate the Rep. Party with Freemasonry, which is not necessarily so. The Illuminati has its tentacles deep into many places.
BB Code edit
[edit on 3/5/08 by masqua]
Which evidence are we talking about? The evidence you assume I am looking at and evaluating - or the evidence I really am looking at and evaluating? It’s interesting that you also assume I am looking from un- or undereducated eyes in a number of directions.
Your feelings come straight from emotion and judgment based on wrongs you feel society commits against your self. And for some reason, as you are yet to explain, you blame Freemasonry.
And seeing as this is a debate, I would have expected all the evidence you could possibly get and throw it in. But you have none, and repeatedly you go off on tangents about how much you hate conservative values. Which have nothing to do with Masonry?
This is mere assertion here. To assume that a given conspiracy theory, in a world with unlimited numbers of examples of conspiracies that managed to come to light (and untold many that never did), is incorrect because “all the conspiracy theorists are uneducated” and “no one does research” is completely illogical. In fact, it is downright mis directive and hyperbolic.
I am yet to see a single well thought out educated conspiracy theory in regards to Masonry. The History channel does a good jobs, though they hardly go into conspiracy, at least they can get their facts (almost) straight.
It's just like the example in the first post, you listed four people (and Bush's family) of whom NO ONE but Ford was a Mason.
It's not, oops I got it wrong, and it's not well I thought its quite simply someone has an agenda or someone lacked the mental capacity to look around official documentation.
But this debate is digressing.
I am NOT here to argue with you over how conspiracy theorist do their research. And I am hardly here to judge your mental capabilities.
I am here to debate whether or not Freemasonry is "controlling the world" or as you once said to me "going to end in genocide" .. and I am YET to see any actual proof, or even a description of proof as to 1. How that is possible and 2. WHY?
The presence of so many Masons involved in, directly or peripherally, the operation of the money and how it flows. The fact we have no Masonic champion on the world level; albeit the ranks up there are loaded with Masons, not one is stepping up to the bat for the little guy.
That is a pretty big statement. And may I ask how you are privy to such information? Or was it assumption, or guessing, or a mixture of both. Another clear description of stating something, in this case how "money flows", not understanding it and blaming Masons.
No, Masonry is not involved at any level of the government or the economy.
Are Masons? Yes, wouldn't doubt it. There are also Elks, VA, Eagles, Knights of Columbus, Opus Di, Evangelicals (whom I would fear above all others) and many many other groups.
So, what is so special about Masonry that we are singled out to rule it all? Don't get me wrong, I am flattered. But there is ZERO evidence to prove it, and you prove that here tonight.
Only deductively. See my answer to question 1.
Well that's not a very clear answer is it? You just said we are corrupting or manipulating the "way money flows" and offer no proof, no evidence, not even a suggestion as to "how". Just assumptions that, I am sorry, have no educated backing what so ever.
As an accuser you should bring forth knowledge to that of which you speak of. The burden of proof lies in YOUR hands.
I never said you were anything. You sound defensive… It’s not you, personally (well, it may actually be - who knows - but that is irrelevant), but an evil within the ranks somewhere, and seemingly at the very top. You’d think some of those guys had the heart of a lizard!
Tell me, is it that there "IS" a corruption within Freemasonry, or that you WANT there to be a corruption within freemasonry? Not to sound redundant but, this whole masquerade is redundant. You cannot make such audacious claims with no proof!
Although that does not mean necessarily that these thing have taken place from time to time, the chances of any one of them happening frequently at the level of national and world politics is extremely high.
So you are admitting every thing you claim is pure speculation? That because politicians become corrupt, Masonry must to become corrupt? Even though we are a charitable organization, not a political party, not a government.. you can hardly compare the two.
Question 1 (2 &3?): Where are the data that show that that was particularly “irregular?” Why should that be believed? Just because you say so?
Propaganda Due or P2 was a Masonic lodge operating under the jurisdiction of the Grand Orient of Italy from 1877 to 1976 (when its charter was withdrawn), and a pseudo-Masonic or "black" or "covert" lodge operating illegally from 1976 to 1981. During the 1980s, when the lodge was headed by Licio Gelli, P2 was implicated in numerous Italian crimes and mysteries, including the nationwide bribe scandal Tangentopoli, the collapse of the Vatican-affiliated Banco Ambrosiano, and the murders of journalist Mino Pecorelli and banker Roberto Calvi. P2 came to light through the investigations into the collapse of Michele Sindona's financial empire.[1]
P2 was sometimes referred to as a "state within a state"[2] or a "shadow government".[3] The lodge had among its members prominent journalists, parliamentarians, industrialists, and military leaders -- including the then-future Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi; the Savoy pretender to the Italian throne Victor Emmanuel; and the heads of all three Italian intelligence services.
en.wikipedia.org...
You seem to have a hard time believing ..... anyone? Doesn't make you right though, you know?
If 20 men gather to make a choice, and 20 are Masons, would we not say the Masons are meeting, although it many not be on “official” business?
Absolutely not. Unless it falls within the Lodge's constitution of course. That would raise red flags right there. If 20 masons meet to conspire, it will not be for the sake of the lodge. If a lodge's accounts exceed a certain amount, when many state's grand lodge treasuries are under 20 million in assets, that to would raise red flags.
But Masonry it's self is an idea, it is a practice. The ritual is Masonry, and Freemasons are the practicer's of said ritual. Anytime something is done outside of the bounds of governing a lodge, or partaking in ritual you cross a line that has nothing to do with Masonry and cannot be discussed in lodge. (politics, economics, religion.. it's illegal to even discuss this during lodge, as during lodge we represent Masonry)
It is suggesting that I might equate the Rep. Party with Freemasonry, which is not necessarily so. The Illuminati has its tentacles deep into many places.
Yes, I did mis number the question, my deepest apologize. It is easy to tell you are more "liberal" then most. You apparently have a deep mistrust in the government. You feel their actions work to control you, to take away freedoms like your freedom to get high when ever you want. You equate this to Masonry because you blame Masonry for these problems. Why? Because you take everything you don't like, and you group it together into a generic group called the Illuminati.
There is no evidence of an Illuminati.
You couldn't tell me even 75% certain a single person that is definently Illuminati.
You cannot tell me for certain where the Illuminati is, what they do, how many members, their ideologies, their politics, their economics nor even one instance where anything regarding the Illuminati has made it's self public.
Without a single certainty, it is a wonder that the Illuminati, the NWO, and Freemasonry are blamed for atrocities and manipulations without a shred of credible evidence.
If this where a court of law, your case would be laughed out of the court room.
Such fervent over generalization and blatant hate for Masonry and yet you have not even shown an inkling of evidence that you know anything about Masonry. You don't know how we do business, how we think, how our social structure works, you don't even know how our degree system and apendant bodies really work.
You just blame us for the sake of having someone easy to blame for your problems.
It's ok though, it happens all the time. Catholics did it to Protestants, and vice versa, Hitler to the Jews, Stalin to dissidents, America to the Communist, the English to the Irish.
Yes, it's always easy to be able to point your finger and through self righteous bigotry blame someone else for your own shortcomings, without an ounce of evidence hysterical and absurd presentations can become more and more attractive. That is all the conspiracy theories surrounding Masonry are. Simple, absurd, uneducated, unresearched, bigoted, and spiteful.
In conclusion, I bring to the fore my opponent’s continued downplaying of the horrific importance that such things like the FEMA camps (prisons),
the encouragement by the government of the spread of genmod crops, the implications of the Codex Alimentarius, the destruction of what the US of A was
built upon via the “Patriot” Act and other recent moves. My opponent would have you accept that these are mere matters of partisan politics, when
clearly they are starkly pointing to billions upon billions of dead and enslaved humans, and should be addressed and opposed by any with a human
heart.
That all these things have come to be with much secrecy, yet with the approval, either specific or tacit, of the individuals in power, elected or otherwise, suggests that those in high places (Illuminati) have a plan to exterminate virtually the entire human race. Not only that, but this plan to exterminate us and enslave the few left has been in effect a number of decades. Elsewise, we would not see money spent on FEMA camps, we would see outrage in the ranks of our governing body against the poisonous and nutrient-deficient code for “health,” we would witness fury at the attempted destruction of our American principles via the “Patriot” Act (which was clearly written prior to the event that supposedly precipitated its initiation).
In truth, these elected and unelected individuals should be trying to warn us all loudly.
And though my opponent would suggest there is no evidence of the Illuminati, I have to ask, what is all this evidence of, then?
The Illuminati.
And if there is an Illuminati, and if we see Masons in positions of power (which we do in abundance), and if these Masons are NOT raising the alarm…
We must conclude one of three things. Either:
1. Masons in power are so lacking in intelligence, collectively and individually, that they are unaware of the stark picture painted by all these things culminating today;
2. Masons in power are promised places for themselves and theirs in some safe haven (underground, most likely) and are fearful of bringing things to the attention of the public lest they jeopardize their safe place; or
3. Some or all Masons are involved in the genocidal efforts on this planet.
I propose that the latter is closest to the truth - although those who aren’t directly involved probably fall into the second group. I would presume few have such lack of vision that today’s world looks rosy.
Thank you to intrepid, RockPuck, and all who have taken the time to read and evaluate our positions.
That all these things have come to be with much secrecy, yet with the approval, either specific or tacit, of the individuals in power, elected or otherwise, suggests that those in high places (Illuminati) have a plan to exterminate virtually the entire human race. Not only that, but this plan to exterminate us and enslave the few left has been in effect a number of decades. Elsewise, we would not see money spent on FEMA camps, we would see outrage in the ranks of our governing body against the poisonous and nutrient-deficient code for “health,” we would witness fury at the attempted destruction of our American principles via the “Patriot” Act (which was clearly written prior to the event that supposedly precipitated its initiation).
In truth, these elected and unelected individuals should be trying to warn us all loudly.
And though my opponent would suggest there is no evidence of the Illuminati, I have to ask, what is all this evidence of, then?
The Illuminati.
And if there is an Illuminati, and if we see Masons in positions of power (which we do in abundance), and if these Masons are NOT raising the alarm…
We must conclude one of three things. Either:
1. Masons in power are so lacking in intelligence, collectively and individually, that they are unaware of the stark picture painted by all these things culminating today;
2. Masons in power are promised places for themselves and theirs in some safe haven (underground, most likely) and are fearful of bringing things to the attention of the public lest they jeopardize their safe place; or
3. Some or all Masons are involved in the genocidal efforts on this planet.
I propose that the latter is closest to the truth - although those who aren’t directly involved probably fall into the second group. I would presume few have such lack of vision that today’s world looks rosy.
Thank you to intrepid, RockPuck, and all who have taken the time to read and evaluate our positions.
In conclusion my opponent solidified my own points as far as, why do conspiracy theorist believe the way they do in regards to Masonry. It is
painfully obvious, when she talks about FEMA, Patriot Act, not being allowed to get high.. She has resentment against the current conservative
administration. However, it is also painfully clear she lacks a real understanding as to "why" said things happen. And instead of understanding
the political world, the business the world and the intersecting of the two, she blames Masons not of little crimes but the worst of the worst. Like
genocide. Without a shred of proof, pure speculation and nothing to back it up.
It is so easy to take everything and declare it a conspiracy against the people by teh Illuminati. Which, forgive me if I am wrong, we where debating whether or not Masonry ruled the world, not the Illuminati.
But that's just the key dear readers. They are so confused on actual issues, could we expect them to understand their own hypotheses? I think not. It's Masonry, it the Illuminati, it's the Catholics, no it must be NWO!
There are five million Freemasons in this world, it would not be unthinkable to assume some of those 5 million made something of there lives. But along with a hatred for Conservatism, my opponent here also has something against Capitalism. And many anti-masons do. They assume if you have money, you must be evil. If a Mason has money, he must have gotten it through the most subversive and unethical way imaginable!
Masonry does not make great men who they are. Instead, great men find Masonry, because Masonry offers the teachings and philosophies that great men seek out in life. If a man becomes President, and he also happens to be a Mason, I would bet more then likely he was to busy to actually do anything with the lodge anyways. There is only one President who has accounts of going to lodge meetings while being President, and for the most part.. as I said before, They join Masonry. We don't join them.
For the vast majority of Masons, we are hard working middle class men. Are there wealthy among us? Yes, I hope one day to be considered wealthy, that is the aspirations of Capitalism. Do the wealthy members control us? Absolutely not, money or rank does not matter, a Master Mason is a Master Mason.
It is a hard concept for Antimasons to grasp, they like to order things numerically or by wealth and importance. They don't understand the concept of equality and that it can really be implemented.
In the end, what it all comes down to is this:
Speculation. We see in her closing arguments pure speculation. It is driven by a misunderstanding, or the desire to libel an organization that she reserves hatred for.
No evidence. There is not a shred of evidence to support the notions that Freemasonry is taking over the world. No evidence of an Illuminati. You can look at corrupt politicians all you want, the fact remains, since Man first walked upright we had corrupt politicians.
Over dramatization. People scream out loud the world is ending, this President will bring in a NWO and create martial law! This is relatively a very quite time in American history, the 1960's, the 1940's the 1920's, the 1860's.. these where disturbed times in America's past. 2008? No, I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. Though it is plain to see my opponent does not like the Conservative agenda, so linking two things she does not like makes more sense to understand the political process.
Empty. Yes, the claims by antimasons, especially my opponent here, are completely empty. They are void of logic and reason, they are fueled by hate and they come with absolutely no backing. All of the audacious claims that are made, you would think an ounce of proof positive evidence could be delivered. Instead it is wild and fanatic emotional driven speculation. Hardly even specualation. Speculation would assume you can at least identify a cause. No, it's just plain ignorance. For instance my opponent believes Masonry is trying it's hardest to inflict genocide on the world. Among other things of course, but lacks any knowledge of Masonry it's self. How can you make such assertions without understanding the very thing you talk about?
Mystifying. Some of the things anti-masons come out with (and it's always different) seem like they just watched a Hollywood movie or comic book and believe it is reality. Perhaps it is a detachment from their own reality that causes them to create this "other world" where secret societies seek to unplot their very way of life.. I don't know.
Incompatibility. I have never read two antimasonic conspiracies that where equal in description. If the NWO, Illuminati and Masonry are all the same thing then why is it no one's story adds up? Depending on the guy, and the book and audio files he's selling on his website the story is ever changing. Always more dark and mystifying then the last, because people eat it up, people are the gullible and will pay for such idiotic stories. But you would think, if there is an entire conspiracy market at least two stories would add up? But they don't, because it derives from imagination and guessing.
In the end we must decide who to trust. Wild speculators who couldn't prove to you a single story is true. Or a Freemason who knows all about the inter workings of Masonry. You see it in the quality of the posts between Masons and antimasons, who REALLY knows what they are talking about, and who is regurgitating information from some religious bigot or some guy on youtube so far detached from reality he begins to believe the very lies he spreads.
There are conspiracies. Real ones. Ones where you can have proof of. Freemasonry dominating the world however, is not one of them. It is a shame our good name is tarnished by the ignorant. However, I am yet to meet a person on the streets who are afraid of us, most recognize us as a social club or charitable organization. Which is what we are, always have been, always will be.
I would like to thank, again, Intrepid for setting this up, to the readers who took the time to read through this debate, and the judges as well.
It is so easy to take everything and declare it a conspiracy against the people by teh Illuminati. Which, forgive me if I am wrong, we where debating whether or not Masonry ruled the world, not the Illuminati.
But that's just the key dear readers. They are so confused on actual issues, could we expect them to understand their own hypotheses? I think not. It's Masonry, it the Illuminati, it's the Catholics, no it must be NWO!
There are five million Freemasons in this world, it would not be unthinkable to assume some of those 5 million made something of there lives. But along with a hatred for Conservatism, my opponent here also has something against Capitalism. And many anti-masons do. They assume if you have money, you must be evil. If a Mason has money, he must have gotten it through the most subversive and unethical way imaginable!
Masonry does not make great men who they are. Instead, great men find Masonry, because Masonry offers the teachings and philosophies that great men seek out in life. If a man becomes President, and he also happens to be a Mason, I would bet more then likely he was to busy to actually do anything with the lodge anyways. There is only one President who has accounts of going to lodge meetings while being President, and for the most part.. as I said before, They join Masonry. We don't join them.
For the vast majority of Masons, we are hard working middle class men. Are there wealthy among us? Yes, I hope one day to be considered wealthy, that is the aspirations of Capitalism. Do the wealthy members control us? Absolutely not, money or rank does not matter, a Master Mason is a Master Mason.
It is a hard concept for Antimasons to grasp, they like to order things numerically or by wealth and importance. They don't understand the concept of equality and that it can really be implemented.
In the end, what it all comes down to is this:
Speculation. We see in her closing arguments pure speculation. It is driven by a misunderstanding, or the desire to libel an organization that she reserves hatred for.
No evidence. There is not a shred of evidence to support the notions that Freemasonry is taking over the world. No evidence of an Illuminati. You can look at corrupt politicians all you want, the fact remains, since Man first walked upright we had corrupt politicians.
Over dramatization. People scream out loud the world is ending, this President will bring in a NWO and create martial law! This is relatively a very quite time in American history, the 1960's, the 1940's the 1920's, the 1860's.. these where disturbed times in America's past. 2008? No, I don't see anything out of the ordinary here. Though it is plain to see my opponent does not like the Conservative agenda, so linking two things she does not like makes more sense to understand the political process.
Empty. Yes, the claims by antimasons, especially my opponent here, are completely empty. They are void of logic and reason, they are fueled by hate and they come with absolutely no backing. All of the audacious claims that are made, you would think an ounce of proof positive evidence could be delivered. Instead it is wild and fanatic emotional driven speculation. Hardly even specualation. Speculation would assume you can at least identify a cause. No, it's just plain ignorance. For instance my opponent believes Masonry is trying it's hardest to inflict genocide on the world. Among other things of course, but lacks any knowledge of Masonry it's self. How can you make such assertions without understanding the very thing you talk about?
Mystifying. Some of the things anti-masons come out with (and it's always different) seem like they just watched a Hollywood movie or comic book and believe it is reality. Perhaps it is a detachment from their own reality that causes them to create this "other world" where secret societies seek to unplot their very way of life.. I don't know.
Incompatibility. I have never read two antimasonic conspiracies that where equal in description. If the NWO, Illuminati and Masonry are all the same thing then why is it no one's story adds up? Depending on the guy, and the book and audio files he's selling on his website the story is ever changing. Always more dark and mystifying then the last, because people eat it up, people are the gullible and will pay for such idiotic stories. But you would think, if there is an entire conspiracy market at least two stories would add up? But they don't, because it derives from imagination and guessing.
In the end we must decide who to trust. Wild speculators who couldn't prove to you a single story is true. Or a Freemason who knows all about the inter workings of Masonry. You see it in the quality of the posts between Masons and antimasons, who REALLY knows what they are talking about, and who is regurgitating information from some religious bigot or some guy on youtube so far detached from reality he begins to believe the very lies he spreads.
There are conspiracies. Real ones. Ones where you can have proof of. Freemasonry dominating the world however, is not one of them. It is a shame our good name is tarnished by the ignorant. However, I am yet to meet a person on the streets who are afraid of us, most recognize us as a social club or charitable organization. Which is what we are, always have been, always will be.
I would like to thank, again, Intrepid for setting this up, to the readers who took the time to read through this debate, and the judges as well.
The results are in. I'll post them as I received them:
Or the short version. RockPuck wins a split decision. Congrats.
"Rockpuck took early control in his opening, his open description of the principles of being a Mason left little doubt as to the function of the organization. This immediately put Amaterasu on a defensive posture.
Amaterasu attempted to recover by inserting a “Rogue Group” inference into the debate, but that just came off looking even more desperate.
Amaterasu vacillated between the debate topic of Masons taking over the world, and Masons being simply corrupt. It appeared several times that he felt if it could be proved that even one Mason was corrupt, that would indicate a desire to take over the world.
Amaterasu brought up “Clear Cut Evidence” and used the word “Fact” several times to rebut Rockpucks contentions, yet never once provided any of this evidence or facts.
I am not now a Mason, nor have I ever been one. Reading this debate I have learned much about Masons, but not from Amaterasu. I read this debate a few times and the one overall impact was that Amaterasu knows very little about the subject matter.
I give the win by a large margin to Rockpuck."
This was a great example of civilized debate between two vehemently opposed parties. I would like to congratulate each on a fine performance.
That said, Let's get to the meant and bones of this debate.
The Presidents and whether or not they were masons is a valid point of contention as it would seem to tie together the Bush family, Masonry, and major international events that have indeed imapacted the world on a grand scale (War on Terror, Patriot Act, Dollar crisis). RockPuck never provided any credible third party source to validate his claim to the contrary of this point and even betrayed his position with this:
Some believe the CIA is behind it, which I may agree but Masonry? .... please..
If George Bush Sr was indeed a Mason, as suggested by Amaterasu's source, then the fact that George Sr. was affliated with the CIA only helps to associate the two. This supports the reasoning that, indeed, the possibility that Masonry could in fact have within their ranks a group of individuals concerned with international events is plausible.
Amaterasu's reliance on deductive reasoning is itself inclusive of a stretch in the rules of logic, however, this was never successfully counterbalanced by RockPuck's use of personal experience as a means to dissuade from the arguement presented by Amaterasu.
Subjective reasoning is not proof.
It is irrelevant in the process of establishing a global influence to a widespread group such as the Masons to highlight the experience of one region (or Lodge). One cannot attribute an absolute to a varied group of people based on knowledge of one region (or Lodge).
RockPuck also contradicted himself with the following:
Only an organization that has no Human involvement what so ever can be declared incorruptible, Masonry, controlled by men is indeed corruptible. However, we have a system in place, a very long line of checks and balances that have been perfected over the years to prevent corruption. It prevents it well.
It can't be said that every human organization is going to have the capacity for corruption in its' ranks and then followed with a statement that there is indeed a human organization that has been devoid of corruption.
I also noted at times that the two Fighters were more involved with the discussion of each other, rather than the debate topic....especially with RockPuck's continued insistence on associating Ameratsu with drug use.
Where was this information presented by Amaterasu?
It wasn't, making it an irrelevant point of contention. Accusatory tones regarding the motivations of the other fighter is not objective discussion.
Amaeratsu's attempt to correlate the Masons with the Illuminati did indeed hurt the Pro position as well as the unelaborated attempts to negatively associate Codex Alimentarius and other examples to Masonry.
But all said and done...I am going to have to narrowly give the nod to Amaterasu.
Winner : Rockpuck
Reasons: As the debate progressed, Rockpuck retained his focus on the issue under debate. He addressed that issue persuasively and concisely (drawing upon his personal experience to good effect). Amaterasu sometimes appeared to let his emotions cause him to stray from a debate regarding the Masons and instead comment on other controversial political topics. This weakened the force of the points Amaterasu was trying to make regarding the Masons.
Or the short version. RockPuck wins a split decision. Congrats.
Amazing debate...both of you. Congratulations to Rockpuck for winning and congratulations to Amaterasu for being willing to go through with it.
Amazing judging as well, by the way.
[edit on 9-5-2008 by Skyfloating]
Amazing judging as well, by the way.
[edit on 9-5-2008 by Skyfloating]
Thumbs up from the soulslayer for a jolly good debate
Rockpuck's empassioned description of the Masons organisation has piqued my interest in becoming a member!
Congrats to him for the win and to Amaterasu for taking part. Good to see debate flourishing.
Rockpuck's empassioned description of the Masons organisation has piqued my interest in becoming a member!
Congrats to him for the win and to Amaterasu for taking part. Good to see debate flourishing.
Thanks to both members for participating in this debate. It was quite interesting to read. If anyone else wants to debate this topic, this will be a
great ground-breaker for what we've covered already. We wouldn't wanna cover the same ground twice, now would we?
TheBorg
TheBorg
Thank you Intrepid, judges, and of course my opponent.
Hopefully this will spark more debates on the topic of Masonry and other conspiratorial issues, as so far many of the debates have been political or world event in nature.
So thanks again everyone, and thank you for the congratulations.
Hopefully this will spark more debates on the topic of Masonry and other conspiratorial issues, as so far many of the debates have been political or world event in nature.
So thanks again everyone, and thank you for the congratulations.
Forgive my belated entry of thanks to the judges and to intrepid, as well as to Rockpuck.
Congratulations on your win, RP.
It was indeed an enlightening experience, and I look forward to having a last say in future debates as I can easily identify the tactics and focuses that work best when one expects no rebuttal.
I will leave it at that and reiterate my thanks.
Congratulations on your win, RP.
It was indeed an enlightening experience, and I look forward to having a last say in future debates as I can easily identify the tactics and focuses that work best when one expects no rebuttal.
I will leave it at that and reiterate my thanks.
We both had a "last say" because neither of our last posts had rebuttals?
Anyways, I look forward to future debates. I am really looking forward to other SS forum posters to get in on the debates. So all you Anti's pair up with a Mason and debate them!
Anyways, I look forward to future debates. I am really looking forward to other SS forum posters to get in on the debates. So all you Anti's pair up with a Mason and debate them!
Although I agree with you that we had very little in the way of rebuttal, per se, I do want to point out that I am not "anti" Mason. I just feel
that there is a dark core that is not on the side of the human-hearted.
The average Masonic Joe is likely a good and human-hearted sort, far removed from the lizard-hearted ones that have ghastly plans for us folk who are less in charge.
Both my grandfathers were Masons, and one of my grandmothers was in the Order of the Eastern Star. I have her pin, in fact.
And, in fact, I am not against the War on Drugs because I can't "get high..." I am against it because it has torn the Fourth Amendment to shreds (property seizure on accusation of drug involvement only - no due process), and has given us the police raid as a norm and not an exceptional occurrence.
[smile] But the debate is over, and so be it.
The average Masonic Joe is likely a good and human-hearted sort, far removed from the lizard-hearted ones that have ghastly plans for us folk who are less in charge.
Both my grandfathers were Masons, and one of my grandmothers was in the Order of the Eastern Star. I have her pin, in fact.
And, in fact, I am not against the War on Drugs because I can't "get high..." I am against it because it has torn the Fourth Amendment to shreds (property seizure on accusation of drug involvement only - no due process), and has given us the police raid as a norm and not an exceptional occurrence.
[smile] But the debate is over, and so be it.
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