Was Pre-Flood (anti-diluvian) man capable of Air Travel?

While I agree with some there is a known conspiracy to withhold several items of extreme significance in the private sector, for religious and other reasons I have to agree with Hanslune.

Even though some of the withheld artifacts show advanced skill and machine work equal to the early industrial revolution, none of the objects indicate manned flight in pictures or markings, and all I have been exposed to, are just short of the construction technology of a modern airframe as we know them. Unless there were fancy bronze, brass or copper planes. ;-)



[edit on 7-8-2008 by Illahee]

Even though some of the withheld artifacts show advanced skill and machine work equal to the early industrial revolution,

Howdy

Withheld by whom? If they are being hidden - how do you know about them?

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by livingtorch
"And (ACCORDING TO DR BAUGH) NASA has recorded the starsong of each now-known planet in the Solar System, and (DR BAUGH --sorry, this parenthetical statement was not in the original, but Dr Baugh is who I was referring to here--) has stated that there appears to be a note missing from the Solar Music Scale--right where a planet may have been located prior to Noah's flood."

You're going to have problems confirming this one. NASA/JPL did indeed record the "sounds" (not real sounds, but plasma wave pulses) of the planets, but they're not single notes. They're a squeal of electromagnetic noises but have been turned into music: www.jpl.nasa.gov...

There's no "missing note" because no planet produces a single note (and musicians would immediately ask "okay... which musical scale are we talking about -- diatonic? pentatonic? something else???" (home22.inet.tele.dk...)

I think Dr. Baugh is being narrowly focused by his own culture and beliefs.

Byrd,

I admire your Herculean strength in the way you restrain yourself from mocking one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read from a regular member at ATS (moderators aside.)

Harte

She's an Anthropologist, they gets special powers of acceptance, concern, understanding and caring. It never helps when encountering some unusual cultural traits to blurt out, "Jesus Christ you dogs are complete savages".......

Archaeologists on the other hand deal with dead people - we can view their handwork with complete distain if we want......."those swine why didn't they write everything down? Didn't they figure someone would dig them up a couple thousand years later and have some questions? Typical ancient people-only concerned about themselves." LOL

[edit on 8/8/08 by Hanslune]

reply to post by Chaos Lord


Howdy Chaos Lord

Hmmm, how do you explain the complete lack of any evidence for that? What time period are you considering this to have occurred in?

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
reply to post by TC Mike

 

TC Mike,

I'm curious as to how you can reconcile your "theory", much of which makes for a good story, with the time frames of known events, such as:

Final phase of the breakup of Pangaea: c. 34 Million years ago

Earliest Australopithecines: c. 4 Million years ago

Earliest Homo Sapiens: c. 195,000 years ago

Mars loss of Magnetosphere and Atmosphere: c. 4 Billion years ago

Mesopotamian/Noah's flood: between 2900 BC and 2750 BC

cormac

The problem often is, how do you know these numbers are true? How does the person you learned it from know they are true? They were told.

The problem with education today is it is basically copying. We are taught things are true and must "know" that to pass and earn our degree. If we question or offer a different opinion we fail the exam. So in effect we are all programed to believe what we are told.

This leaves very little room for the expansion and development of knowledge.

Ive worked for a scientific company that was hired by some of the major oil companies in the world. We dealt in an alternative form of scientific exploration which was deemed "impossible" by our competition because that is what they were taught and they believe in seismic results because that is what they spent years studying and programming into their brains, yet our method and results always worked.

There could have easily been a mistake in the above math or research. Facts are not facts, they are always just an opinion based on the best availabe evidence, but it could be wrong, and often is.

Howdy Mike

The problem often is, how do you know these numbers are true? How does the person you learned it from know they are true? They were told.

Hans: So we shouldn't trust sources eh? A laudable premise but how does one person duplicate in one short lifetime all the independent study to find out what is really true? Should I fly to Lisbon to make sure its REALLY there?

The problem with education today is it is basically copying. We are taught things are true and must "know" that to pass and earn our degree. If we question or offer a different opinion we fail the exam. So in effect we are all programed to believe what we are told.

Hans: Today? Are you saying its changed from the past? Well it has it use to far more rote memorization. "programmed to believe what we are told", so how do you know anything Mike? Have you personally investigated and confirmed that two hydrogen and one oxgyen make up water?

This leaves very little room for the expansion and development of knowledge.

Hans: Double huh? What, ah Mike the expansion of knowledge in the last one hundred and fifty years has been massive, just in the last ten years what is known doubles every few years? Why do you think there is no expanision or development of knowledge going on?

Ive worked for a scientific company that was hired by some of the major oil companies in the world. We dealt in an alternative form of scientific exploration which was deemed "impossible" by our competition because that is what they were taught and they believe in seismic results because that is what they spent years studying and programming into their brains, yet our method and results always worked.

Hans: However you're saying that your company DID do that so you guys all have independent educations? You seem to be saying that nothing is happening in knowledge then give us an example of it occuring...in your company??

There could have easily been a mistake in the above math or research. Facts are not facts, they are always just an opinion based on the best availabe evidence, but it could be wrong, and often is.

Hans: Really. Although I agree in principle you are taking the stance too far. So If I'm driving at 50 kmp and hit the brakes there is no way to know how far I will go until I come to a complete stop? 2 + 2 =4 ---is that in doubt? Ireland was neutral in WWII is that going to change? Not to quibble Mike but I think you're going a bit overboard on the "we don't know anything" theme.

^^ Im not here to have an argument I dont care if you disagree with my opinion so there is no need to dissect it like that.

Not everyone at the place I worked at had an independent education but the person responsible for developing the mathematical formula to process the data we were given and develop the method came across it unexpectedly and by accident while at University and originally were told it wouldnt work; but it does.

And no, I wont tell you where I worked or what exactly we did, Im not here for credit and am not making any out there claims that need to be backed up.

And I think you are the one who is going to the extreme by trying to argue and disprove me.

It is funny you use the 2+2=4 example, because actually, in certain sciences, 2+2=5, for large enough values of 2. So all I am saying is, we are given these dates that we are meant to fit everything into but the dates are subjective and could very well be inaccurate.

If you have a theory that fits 9 out of 10 dates, or even 7 out of 10, instead of saying it is flat out wrong because those few dates dont line up, take the time to explore those dates maybe they need to be moved.

Have you ever played Sudoku? Life is like that. It may all line up on one row but in order to get the bigger picture sometimes you need to move some of those numbers.

Howdy Mike

^^ Im not here to have an argument I dont care if you disagree with my opinion so there is no need to dissect it like that.

Hans: but its fun! [in my most cavalier tone]

Not everyone at the place I worked at had an independent education but the person responsible for developing the mathematical formula to process the data we were given and develop the method came across it unexpectedly and by accident while at University and originally were told it wouldnt work; but it does.

Hans: so you acknowledge that your original declaration that education and knowing stuff doesn’t actuall leads to, “…. very little room for the expansion and development of knowledge.” Is incorrect?

And no, I wont tell you where I worked or what exactly we did, Im not here for credit and am not making any out there claims that need to be backed up.

Hans: Don’t need to say where you work. You already said the industry group – which over the past decades has been a leader in new technology. It would seem it contradicts your earlier statement.

And I think you are the one who is going to the extreme by trying to argue and disprove me.

Hans: Again your statement “This leaves very little room for the expansion and development of knowledge.” You don’t think this is an extreme view? Its easily contradicted by our present world. Your own company is innovative, the people you work with are innovative. Is technology, science and knowledge not expanding as we speak?

It is funny you use the 2+2=4 example,

Hans: We aren’t talking about physics and margin of error, we are talking 2.0 + 2.0 = 4 but it was just an example. Do you need to research that or do you take it that its true?

If you have a theory that fits 9 out of 10 dates, or even 7 out of 10, instead of saying it is flat out wrong because those few dates dont line up, take the time to explore those dates maybe they need to be moved.

Hans: What have you found when you've taken the time to explore these dates - how should they be moved and why?

Once again Hans derails a thread with his insatiable ego and petty tit-for-tat, know-it-all straw man arguments.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

LINK

Hey OP take control of your thread! You certainly raised enough topics in the opening statement to live to fight another day; Byrd shot down TC Mike, not you.

Until then allow me to contribute to the topic of the thread:

The Columbian 'plane': Considered to be well over a thousand years old, this tiny gold object certainly has a similar appearance to a modern aeroplane. Thought to come from a pre-Incan culture, it measures just two inches long.
Apart from the obvious overall similarity to a plane, this object has several interesting features. What is most noticeable about this object is the tail-fins, never seen in nature, but specifically placed for aerodynamics. There is also what appears to be a 'cockpit', and it is said that the resemblance to a modern plane was complete even to the existence of an insignia on the tail fin which has been likened to the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet (first of the Torah)- the letter Beth.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Once again Hans derails a thread with his insatiable ego and petty tit-for-tat, know-it-all straw man arguments.

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

LINK

Quoting the wikipedia definition of a straw man argument is not the same as pointing out where Hans Lune has used this practice, you know.

If he did, I didn't see it.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeItHey OP take control of your thread! You certainly raised enough topics in the opening statement to live to fight another day; Byrd shot down TC Mike, not you.

Until then allow me to contribute to the topic of the thread:

The Columbian 'plane': Considered to be well over a thousand years old, this tiny gold object certainly has a similar appearance to a modern aeroplane. Thought to come from a pre-Incan culture, it measures just two inches long.
Apart from the obvious overall similarity to a plane, this object has several interesting features. What is most noticeable about this object is the tail-fins, never seen in nature, but specifically placed for aerodynamics. There is also what appears to be a 'cockpit', and it is said that the resemblance to a modern plane was complete even to the existence of an insignia on the tail fin which has been likened to the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet (first of the Torah)- the letter Beth.

That's true. Byrd didn't shoot the OP down. Perhaps that's because she did so already, in this thread from a year ago.
She's probably done it several other times as well, prior to the linked one. I know I have.

People do tire of continuously making the same arguments, year in and year out, you know.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

Harte said: Quoting the wikipedia definition of a straw man argument is not the same as pointing out where Hans Lune has used this practice, you know.
If he did, I didn't see it.

Look again... and if you still don't see it, read the definition again. He is patently, as per, agressively misconstruing what 'Mike' posted and describing "a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position)"

While taking the thread off topic...

People do tire of continuously making the same arguments, year in and year out, you know.

Harte

And then there are those of us who tire of the smug, supercilious, self-important thread derailers. Where's our sympathy?

It is vital to this forum to offer informative dissenting postions, no doubt. But it is more important to STAY ON TOPIC and all too often is there a pile-on by a certain group, many of whom are on his thread, to race in with
textbook responses -- and most of the time we have to take that on faith since so few of you bother to back up your assertions with data -- insist "there's nothing to see here folks", at which point the threads often turn into you guys defending what you think you know instead of allowing a dialogue to take place around WHAT THE OP POSTED.

In this instance he/she asked for any research or data that would allude to or support the idea of pre-historical civs and thier ability to fly. He/she did not say they were offering proof, just wanted to know what other's thoughts were and if they had any other info around this topic....

So to that end I found this for the OP to look into:

Babylonian scripts like the "Epic of Etana" also contain references to the magical flight of Etana on the back of an enormous eagle. This eagle takes him higher and higher, and throughout the narrative there are remarkably authentic descriptions of the view that unfolds before them. This is obviously the account of someone familiar with flying. The sense of perspective, and patchwork of colour and haze, together with an accurate depiction of geographical features make this difficult to understand. Difficult that is unless the author, or someone close to him, had actually experienced the wonder of flight.

In his book Secrets of the Lost Races, author Rene Noorbergen makes the following comment: "Whatever the vehicle of ascent may have been, the 'Epic of Etana' certainly supplies us with a very accurate description of the Earth's surface from various altitudes - descriptions which were not verified in our own era until the high altitude aerial flights of the 1950s, and the first space shots of the 1960s.LINK TO OTHER PROPOSED EXAMPLES:

I am not, in this instance, taking a postion on whether there was avionics in pre-history, but simply responding to the OP's stated request in his opening. See the difference?

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
Until then allow me to contribute to the topic of the thread:

The Columbian 'plane': Considered to be well over a thousand years old, this tiny gold object certainly has a similar appearance to a modern aeroplane. Thought to come from a pre-Incan culture, it measures just two inches long.
Apart from the obvious overall similarity to a plane, this object has several interesting features. What is most noticeable about this object is the tail-fins, never seen in nature, but specifically placed for aerodynamics. There is also what appears to be a 'cockpit', and it is said that the resemblance to a modern plane was complete even to the existence of an insignia on the tail fin which has been likened to the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet (first of the Torah)- the letter Beth.

Im going to ignore the off topic BS in this thread and try to continue.

Here is an image of the wooden "toy" found in Egypt.


paranormal.about.com...

The Egyptian artifact, found in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt in 1898, is a six-inch wooden object that strongly resembles a model airplane, with fuselage, wings and tail. Experts believe the object is so aerodynamic that it is actually able to glide. The small object discovered in Central America (shown at right), and estimated to be 1,000 years old, is made of gold and could easily be mistaken for a model of a delta-wing aircraft - or even the Space Shuttle. It even features what looks like a pilot's seat.

And more pics of the Precolumbian plane.


[edit on 20-8-2008 by Mikeraphone]

[edit on 20-8-2008 by Mikeraphone]

Strawman, LOL? Well then please expose it. I stand ready to apology profusely if you'd detail my evil action.

The problem with pre-aviation is a lack of evidence for it. The little demons, beasts and gods that look like planes were made when? What culture are they associated with? Can the people who think these small trinkets are evidence provide that answer?

Originally posted by Hanslune

The problem with pre-aviation is a lack of evidence for it. The little demons, beasts and gods that look like planes were made when? What culture are they associated with? Can the people who think these small trinkets are evidence provide that answer?

My above post and the one it quoted did just that.

I will break it down for you in case you have a hard time reading through all that information. I will even break down the answers into two sets to make it that much easier for you.


"Were made when?"
The Egyptian Plane: It was discovered in 1898 in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt and it had been dated as having been made near 200 BCE.
The PreColumbian Plane: It is "estimated to belong to a period between 500 and 800 CE, but since they are made from gold, accurate dating is impossible and based essentially on stratigraphy which may be deceptive. However, we can safely say that these gold objects are more than 1000 years old."


"What culture are they associated with?"
The Egyptian Plane: Ermmmm.... The Ancient Egyptian culture.
The PreColumbian Plane: Ermmmmmm..... The PreColumbian culture.

"Can the people who think these small trinkets are evidence provide that answer?"
The Egyptian Plane: Your questions have been answered. Photographic evidence has been provided. If you would like further information about the Cairo museum display labeling it a "model airplane" and it's advanced aerodynamics click here: www.world-mysteries.com...
The PreColumbian Plane: Your questions have been answered. Photographic evidence has been provided.

Originally posted by Mikeraphone

Here is an image of the wooden "toy" found in Egypt.


paranormal.about.com...

The Egyptian artifact, found in a tomb at Saqquara, Egypt in 1898, is a six-inch wooden object that strongly resembles a model airplane, with fuselage, wings and tail. Experts believe the object is so aerodynamic that it is actually able to glide.

Mike,
Here's a LINK to a reasonable explanation for the Egyptian artifact.

Most Egyptologists think that the artifact is a bird with outstretched wings, though the tail is quite dissimilar to any known bird's tail. Though it is not apparent in the accompanying photographs, painted details of the eyes and beak are still observable on the model. There also remains a bit of paint on the upper edge of the tail, and it is possible that more detail was originally provided but has worn away over time. There is also a graceful curve on the bottom of the model delineating the anatomical transition of the body to the head and the tail, very much in the manner of a bird in flight. But there is still the matter of the peculiar shape of the tail.

Below are details of the tops of the masts from three reliefs depicting boats, all used in the Opet festivals. The first is the masthead of a boat of Ramesses III, the second is the mast of a boat in the reign of Herihor, and the third is the masthead of the ship of state Mery Amun. All of these reliefs are found in the Temple of Khonsu at Karnak and date to the late New Kingdom...

...Could the Saqqara artifact have served as a sort of weathervane to indicate wind direction on a boat, practical or ceremonial? The vane-like tail might suggest such a use. Given its size, it appears unlikely that it would have been set atop a mainmast, however, as the reliefs above depict. It is also possible that the artifact served as a child's toy, though its design would not allow it to glide like a bird if hurled through the air.

In any case, of the two theories that the artifact is intended to represent either a bird or an aircraft, the former is the only one tenable based on the corpus of evidence that is known to exist.

Read this article, please. When you finish, note the link at the bottom of the page that says "Home." If you click that, you'll go to a page of links that lead to many extremely interesting discussions of similar matters.

Harte

Howdy Mike

The PreColumbian Plane: It is "estimated to belong to a period between 500 and 800 CE, but since they are made from gold, accurate dating is impossible and based essentially on stratigraphy which may be deceptive. However, we can safely say that these gold objects are more than 1000 years old."

"What culture are they associated with?"

The PreColumbian Plane: Ermmmmmm..... The PreColumbian culture.

Not bad Mike

Oh and thanks to Harte for dealing with the Saqqara weatherwane. Could it have been a toy glider? Yes the Greeks had been making wooden bird like gliders for some time so it could be such. Anyone who watches birds will see that they can glide and that posture if translated into wood makes a reasonable toy glider. Oh Harte I remember somewhere someplace that the flat vertical tail had tiny holes in it and it was theorized that feathers might have been placed there.

"Pre-columbian", well close they came from the Sinu culture and were made circa 500-900 AD. There are hundreds of these zoomorphic art pieces made only a few resemble flying creatures or aircraft.

So why were the Sinu people making art pieces of aircraft? Well they weren't is the easy answer. You'll find that many of these pieces reflect known motifs in Sinu and other pre-columbian cultures that live on and around the Sinu river country. So have any airfields been found? No, any sign of high tech? No. For some reason I find the idea that delta wing jet aircraft were flying around a thousand years ago in the Sinu area somewhat implausible but I await evidence of such.

I would suggest you read up on the culture of the Sinu. After doing so ask yourself- were these artistic representations of creatures and gods or aircraft?

Metallurgy

Pre-Columbian Metallurgy of South America
By Elizabeth P. Benson

Momíl: A formative sequence in the Sinú valley, Colombia - all 2 versions »
G REICHEL-DOLMATOFF - American Antiquity, 1957 - JSTOR

The link

Sweat of the Sun and Tears of the Moon. Gold and Silver in Pre-Columbian Art

ER Caley - American Journal of Archaeology, 1967 – JSTOR

Sweat of the Sun Tears of the Moon: Gold and Emerald Treasures of Colombia

M Graham - African Arts, 1982 – JSTOR

Pre-Hispanic Metallurgy and Metalworking in the New World DT Easby Jr - Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, 1965 – JSTOR

Edited to add

Its the opinion of people who have studies these nice pieces of zoomorphic art that some are representations of flying fish.







[edit on 20/8/08 by Hanslune]