What to do about the patriot problem?

I get flak for this all the time, and I've made several respected foes because of this subject, just because I don't believe in putting my faith into a nation state and making a friggin religion out of it. I don't believe in supporting America or The Troops or The Constitution or any of these relics of a bygone social experiment that is now FULLY extinct. Yet I tolerate people parading around every year multiple times a year celebrating how great this thing that doesn't actually exist anymore is... and I would love to help them get over their delusions, but it's the same thing as talking to Christians and explaining to them rationally and politely why YES they ARE wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong, especially when they've thought they were right their whole lives.

Patriotism is wrong. Let me explain. When I say that yopu are wrong, patriots, I really don't mean you. You're just doing what you've been raised to do. We've all been doing that for a long time. I was a huge fan of America for a long time. I was also a huge fan of this girl named April for a long time. Turns out, she was sleeping with all my friends behind my back when we were together, and supposedly "in love". I choose that example because that's just being totally decieved by ONE person. Imagine how decieving a whole army of liars and disinfo agents and false prophets/preachers can be. Imagine how decietful things can get when not only do you have the deceivers decieving, but also the decieved!

This is what we're faced with. Those that agree with me, we're up against millions and millions of people who have been decieved their whole lives. They think this country will save the world, will save them.

Those of you who are Christian AND patriots, man I just wanna show you the light, because you're double-blinded. I'm not insulting you. You are being blinded, but you are not blind. You can see, if you so choose.

The only faith one should have is faith in themselves. It may seem selfish, but it's not. It's actually taking full responsibility for everything that happens in your life, whether it be far away and not related seemingly in anyway to you, or whether it be your actions and their consequences. Blaming other people, other groups, other religions, other countries, other yada yadaa, all you are doing is hiding behind something because you are afraid.

We are afraid of losing our country. Why?

We're not going to die and be miserable for eternity just because the United States isn't here anymore. We have each other, and I think humans should start thinking that way. Nations will come and go, as they have for thousands of years... but humanity will survive, and hopefully, we can continue to agree upon more and more of our similarities as people, instead of taking sides and arguing about our differences. That's what patriotism is not. Patriotism is about choosing a side and saying "My side is the best because it's my side". Patriotism is about clinging to a side, and being weary, fearful, or downright hateful towards anyone else who isn't on your same side or doesn't think your side is as great as you think it is.

Patriotism is childish as hell. I know this, and I'm only 22!!!

There are some very old people that have never grown up!

Grow up! Choose life, not sides.

I wanna clarify this. The only reason I say people who think like me are "up against" people who are patriots... is because they are up against us, when all we are trying to do is expand their minds and give them a new way of viewing the world and its people. All I wanna do is take of your shades, so you can view the world in full color.

You are a human, first and foremost. American is not a species. American is not a real thing. American is another label we give ourselves which, meaning to or not, separates us from uniting as a whole.

You are a citizen of the world, just like all the other beautiful creatures that we SHARE the planet with. Start acting like it, I beg you.

I don't care how great our consumerism and our conveniences are here, compared to any other part of the world that we've completely plundered in order to have these things, but it's not WORTH IT anymore.

It's not worth it to decimate our planet, while becoming increasingly cynical and spiteful towards everyone, just to save some brand name. It's just a brand name. It's just a product.

I guess my question is.... what do some of you think we could do to get past America VS the World, and finally begin to see each other as what we really are? We're all humans, and we don't NEED to behave like this. It's orchestrated savagery.

Not to mention that, in supporting America, here's what you are indirectly supporting:

- the mass genocide of the native population in order to populate this continent

- the enslavement and torture of many different ethnicities, simply because we could.

- the corporatization of the world. Corporations get away with murder everyday, poison our food and our drinking water, buy off all our political structure, mercillessly destroy our environment and our fellow species all in the name of power and profit.

- the plundering of the world's resources just to keep ourselves fat and glamourous.

- a false definition of freedom

- War

- lies

- mass mental manipulation

- racial inequality

- and pretty much every single shade of sin you can imagine under the sun

There's so much more I could say, but I don't wanna say too much. It's too simple of a message, and I've already said too much.

Originally posted by indierockalien
...I've already said too much.

That is the only part of this thread I can agree with.

reply to post by indierockalien


Sorry for this short post, but to lead into my point I have to ask you one question. Have you ever lived or gone anywhere OTHER then the US? Or have you lived here in the states your entire life? ok ok..it was 2 questions..lol

p.s. And if it was on vacation as a tourist or honeymoon...that doesn't count.

[edit on 4/12/2008 by rcwj75]

Indierock, I think you are talking more about nationalism than patriotism. I think the U.S. Constitution is one of the most wondrous things ever created by man. It is a blueprint for a society in which everyone is considered free and equal and to pursue their idea of happiness, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

My view of patriotism is not some knee-jerk, flag-waving person with myopic vision. A patriotic American is one who is dedicated to preserving the Constituiton and all that it stands for. There is nothing wrong with loving your country and believing in what it stands for, i.e. freedom and fairness. The problem is when someone think they are being patriots by never thinking or saying anything bad about one's country.

I think it is our duty to see what's wrong in our country and try to fix it by drawing attention to it. This can only happen if you love and respect the things for which that country stands.

The thing is.... and I'll answer all responses with this post, since I have to leave shortly... that George Bush was RIGHT! The Consitution IS just a piece of paper, and we're holding it as gospel, when all it really is is another piece of paper. Another Bible by which our mind is constrained by its words, and people in power can use to manipulate the meaning of. These ideas are not hard to grasp. People throughout the ages have had similar ideas, and that's because it is common sense. We don't need to use the Constitution to fix the world. Other countries do not need to all be little USA Juniors. It's a good start, I'll admit, but it's only our training wheels, and we've been wearing those for 200+ years. We can do better. Really what's the difference between Nationalism and patriotism nowadays? We get people who are willing to be mean and nasty towards others either way.

Forestlady, you should know better than most that this planet isn't America's to own. It is no nation's to own. Earth's people are no nation's property. It's not right that we get brainwashed into separating and isolating ourselves. We're doing this to ourselves, remember. We all wanna stick by our familiar little monickers and pretend like it's okay to ignore the rest of the world JUST because we have it so much better here.

To answer another person's post, no. I have never lived anywhere other than this country. Does that make my message any less relevant? Let me tell you something, just because I haven't experienced extreme hunger or famine or sickness or war does not mean I can't put myself in another person's shoes. Also, to say that I do not know what it feels like to be in lack of something, you are severely wrong. Maybe we don't agree on what's more important to be in abundance of. I'd gladly trade off my comforts for a little more happiness, a little more understanding, a little more compassion and a show of morality from people.

In order to evolve, we need new ideas. America is an old idea, and it's not working anymore. Maybe it did work once, but it's unrepairable now. It's time for something that works universally.

I have friends that are from West Africa. They lived there until a few years ago.... I believe it was in Nigeria. They told me that, if it wasn't for the Westerners coming over and training the death squads in order to take control of all the diamonds and the drugs and the food supply, they would much rather live in Nigeria than here because people are so much more communal there, and they work tirelessly to try and understand new sitruations, instead of shunning them and labelling them in fear, like we do here. He said I would've loved it there before War started.

This guy, he comes from a country where he lives in tin shacks and sleeps on dirt floors. He comes here, and after five years, he would rather still be sleeping on dirt floors and in tin shacks. It just goes to show you how what we think is such a great lifestyle to us may not be as universally fulfilling as we think.

I think people need to come together not as countries, but as people. Countries are not real things, ya know? You can't grasp a country with your hands. The only place a country exists is as an implanted idea in your brain. It's not YOUR country.

I'm no jingoistic nationalist and, obviously, extreme nationalism has its perils (i.e. Fascism). So I wouldn't ask someone to feign patriotism as it's not necessary to be a good, law abiding citizen and human being. I take offense, however, to people that talk about the US as if it is so bad of a place to live in. People that drone on like this likely have little experience in the REAL world. I may not agree with our leadership and culture in everything, but not a day goes by that I don't think that I'm fortunate to be an American. I reckon' the majority of people from all but a few dozen nations on Earth live in a way that you would not even bother to imagine. I can honestly say I love this country. Wow, your stupidity made me say something I haven't said or typed since high school. Kudos!

Anarchy, what you essentially propose by advocating the dissolution of organized states, is not a viable ethos for any significant period of time. Society is a self-regulating mechanism, and will always slide towards order, cooperation, and inevitably: STATES. Humans dominate the world BECAUSE of our ability to organize into cooperative groups, NOT IN SPITE of it.

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Threadfall]

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Threadfall]

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Threadfall]

Originally posted by indierockalien

Forestlady, you should know better than most that this planet isn't America's to own. It is no nation's to own. Earth's people are no nation's property. It's not right that we get brainwashed into separating and isolating ourselves. We're doing this to ourselves, remember. We all wanna stick by our familiar little monickers and pretend like it's okay to ignore the rest of the world JUST because we have it so much better here.

OK. And I should know "better than most"...why? I'd really like to know your reasoning behind this statement.

Now for the topic: Do you have any idea what the founders of this nation went through to create the Constitution?

Where did I say that this planet should belong to America? Somehow, I think you've really misunderstood my post, with all due respect.

Originally posted by indierockalien

I have friends that are from West Africa. They lived there until a few years ago.... I believe it was in Nigeria. They told me that, if it wasn't for the Westerners coming over and training the death squads in order to take control of all the diamonds and the drugs and the food supply, they would much rather live in Nigeria than here because people are so much more communal there, and they work tirelessly to try and understand new sitruations, instead of shunning them and labelling them in fear, like we do here. He said I would've loved it there before War started.

This guy, he comes from a country where he lives in tin shacks and sleeps on dirt floors. He comes here, and after five years, he would rather still be sleeping on dirt floors and in tin shacks. It just goes to show you how what we think is such a great lifestyle to us may not be as universally fulfilling as we think.

Ok, I have a few questions about this quote.

Why is your friend here? If the westerners are so bad, and created so many problems in his country, why did he flee to the west? That seems a bit ironic to me. To run for shelter to a place that he has so much disdain for.

No offense, but I think your pal is feeding you some bull!

Also, are they just aquaintances? West Africa is a big place, so are they from Nigeria, or another country? It seems to me that you would know for sure if you consider this person a friend.

One other oddity that screamed at me from this quote is how unpatriotic your friends are to abandon their country when things aren't going well. Why aren't they there fighting against the death squads?

They had to come to the US to escape instead of standing up for their own freedom in their own country. Hmmmmmm!

im pretty happy living in the U.S... i like countries where beheadings arent a form of punishment.

Ive traveled outside this country many times. I have seen how others live in other countries that are less fortunate then America.

I also have had a relatively great life thanks to being born here, rather then some other countries I wont mention.

I also see the hundreds and hundreds of people who do anything they can to come to this country. Hmmmm. Wonder why that is? They certainly arent being forced to - anymore. And those who hate it so much can leave. And if you dont like the system, then work your butt of to get inside and try and change it from within!

I would love to help them get over their delusions, but it's the same thing as talking to Christians and explaining to them rationally and politely why YES they ARE wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong, especially when they've thought they were right their whole lives.

Seriously, get over yourself. You are no more "right" then anyone else is "right". You are being rather self-rightious like you have all the answers. You dont. You are just voicing opinions thats it. Which is fine! You have your beliefs they have theirs. Nobody's is anymore right then the other....including yours. So, maybe try living your life and changing things in your life....and if others want to follow, they will. If they dont want to, that is their business.

I will also tell you this. Your life is what you make it. Your unhappy about it. Make some changes. Thats what I do....and it works!

Best of luck to you regardless. I always feel really sad when I read people making posts here about how misserable their life is here in the US. Then I think about some of the places I have been....and well....

~Proud American


[edit on 13-4-2008 by greeneyedleo]

[edit on 13-4-2008 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by indierockalien

I don't believe in supporting America or The Troops or The Constitution or any of these relics of a bygone social experiment that is now FULLY extinct.

do you realize that if there was no patriotism in America you would be living in a communist society and probably speaking German or Russian ?

you as an American have certain human rights and oppourtunities that others do not have and can only dream about. why do you think there are so many people trying to get in this country ? it aint because their leaving something better to go to something worse.


i think your just in Denial and you really dont know what you got imo


i really believe you have not thoroughly thought this out and if you really believe you are right then i say...pack your bags and go move to another country and see if your right. The USA may not be perfect but imho it's the best place to be.

Wow! That is some heavy Communist propaganda.

Soviet-style communism is wrong and I find it hard to believe that the OP believes what he is saying let alone understands it.

Perhaps all we really have here is a heavily caffeinated TROLL.

You're not up against any patriots or christians. Are the patriots the ones saying they're against you. they're not getting comfortable with the idea that the US is doomed to fail like every country before has.
True patriotism = team work and team players.
Christianity whether you're for it or not is a damn good banner to rally under.
I beleive a real patriot will never say "If you don't like it then leave the country." Those people are like a patriot as much as a polygamist is a christian.

[edit on 13-4-2008 by Zealott]

I love America & I am glad that I live here, but I do think that politicians are bending the constitution, so to speak--and I beleive the world is tired of the US sticking our noses into other countries affairs-my cousin was in Europe last summer & said he talked to alot of people there who don't like Bush (I can't stand him either), but they did like the American people. As far as "patriotism" goes, some people take it to extremes thus making it look like "everyone" is like that, too. Thank you, media & f-u very much!
I'm not rich but I'm not poor either & when I think about it, I pretty much have what I need to survive & live which compared to most of the world thats ALOT. Most people are obsessed with "stuff"- expensive cars, clothes they can't afford--you know- "keeping up with the Joneses"--alot of them eat WAY too much-America's the fattest country now-& I think thats a big downfall because they are obsessed with thier own little worlds & not seeing whats really going on behind the scenes.
If you are only 22, you've got aways to go little Buckaroo--I suggest you invest in some traveling & higher education--I'd like to see what you have to say 5 years from now- experience changes alot. Peace~

We all are here a short time, so what is truth. You cannot tell anyone, that christianity is wrong, becuase you have no way of knowing for sure.

We all believe what we are taught to believe, whether it is truth or not, so how can anyone tell another what is truth. Look how many times science has been wrong also, when the affirm them are right for centurys.

reply to post by indierockalien


Its true but sadly the weak minded prefer to live in denial and delusion rather than face the numerous problems that have piled up while everyone turned a blind eye to everything going on because "its not happening to me or my family" but they fail to understand that when your way of life makes the lives of others harder you create a world where you suffer for most of your incarnations and only get to enjoy life properly on the rare occasions when your lucky enough to be born into a rich and powerful family. i would much rather respect other peoples ways of life and learn to live peacefully with all people and enjoy every lifetime i live since we end up playing all sides anyway