Civilization versus Islam: A win-win scenario.

Originally posted by bodrul
reply to post by cybrseer

 

you still dont get the concept of martyrdem do you?
Mass martyrdem which planet you living on.

from this view you sound like someone promoting Mass genocide of Muslims.

and please the Two verses mean jack all if you dont show the full Image and what they truely mean.

i wont waste my time on you as you have shown your true colours.
good day

If you could contain your preconcieved ideas of what I am saying and continue a civilized dialogue rather than accusing me of a lack of understanding I would be able to answer all your questions or statements in kind.
I am a philosopher.
I simply presented a concept for discussion.

from this view you sound like someone promoting Mass genocide of Muslims.

Wrong you could not be more Wrong.
If you had read my other posts you could not form this opinion.
If you read my opening paragraph you could not form this opinion.

i wont waste my time on you as you have shown your true colours.
good day

My true colours are as follows:
All mankind should be free
All mankind should have freedom of thought
No one should ever kill
All mankind should be treated with respect and dignity
All mankid shoud live in harmony
These are my true colours.

For anyone to say otherwise would be a contentious lie.
I do not seek discord.
I am saddened by any who would assume the worst from my statements without allowing me to respond.

If you hate, I have no desire for further dialogue, as I do not hate.
If you seek to kill, I have no desire to associate with you as I do not kill.
If you seek animosity, I have no desire to participate.
If you are closed minded, I have no desire to close my mind.

Originally posted by bodrul

i am a Muslim and if Required would die a Martyr and thats defending my family and if required Country and thats from people such as your self who would call on our deaths

For anyone to accuse me of the above quote is bordering on insanity.
I do hope that you simply misunderstand my statements, however, if in fact you are purposely and maliciously accusing "cybrseer" of calling for our deaths, I can no longer justify any interaction with anyone who willfully displays such depravity and evil.

I have not nor will I ever call on anyones deaths.

I am fully capable of producing an exhaustive thesis comprising the whole of the Quran on the subject of martydom. This was not my intent for this blog, however, do to the vitriolic nature of your post I will gladly supply for your consideration an exhaustive study, that will assuredly exact a level of theological expertise beyond any capabilities that you have thus far displayed. If you seek enlightenment I am willing to comply.

Cybrseer

P.S.
I would point out that the your choice to display a picture of a scantily clad woman exposing her bare legs, abdomen, and the shape of her chest and buttocks in your profile is in total disobedience of Allah as is written in the Quran.

Surah 24:31
And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees whose sexual drive has been nullified, or the children who have not reached puberty. They shall not strike their feet when they walk in order to shake and reveal certain details of their bodies. All of you shall repent to GOD, O you believers, that you may succeed.

Also Surah 33:59

[edit on 3-4-2008 by cybrseer]

I apologize to all other bloggers for spending so much time on my replies to "bodrul". After reviewing the profile of "bodrul" it is clear to me that "bodrul" is a fraud or at best a hypocrite, as no one who professes to be a Muslim would willingly allow the portrayal of harlots and hatred to be associated with their profile.

Cybrseer

reply to post by cybrseer

Originally posted by cybrseer
The solution is for all followers of Islam to martyr themselves, thus instantly achieving an exalted position in paradise.

Is it not the goal of every follower of Islam to obtain paradise?

Allah clearly proclaims in the Quran the benefits of martyrdom.

Why would you spend one second longer on this vile planet when you have a instant ticket to paradise? Unless you really do not believe in what you profess to believe in.

I think this is what bodrul was talking about when he mentioned your misunderstanding of martyrdom. Suicide does not equal martyrdom. Unless there is an reason in which to sacrifice one's life, it'd be pretty stupid to kill one's self. Going out and actually looking for death is not martyrdom.


So then, according to you, where should the muslims go, what should they do, why should they perform this 'mass martyrdom'?

reply to post by babloyi

I think this is what bodrul was talking about when he mentioned your misunderstanding of martyrdom. Suicide does not equal martyrdom. Unless there is an reason in which to sacrifice one's life, it'd be pretty stupid to kill one's self. Going out and actually looking for death is not martyrdom.

So then, according to you, where should the muslims go, what should they do, why should they perform this 'mass martyrdom'?

Thank you for you thoughtful approach to my posts.

I profoundly understand and agree with the Quran in regards to martyrdom.

Suicide is not martyrdom. I have never suggested that suicide has any equivalence to martyrdom.

As I said in my opening post

"Very little creativity is required to figure out a way by which all who follow Islam could in mass die as martyrs."

The Quran clearly gives followers of Islam a reason for martyrdom.

"Why would you spend one second longer on this vile planet when you have a instant ticket to paradise?"

Allow me to use vulgar speech in an attempt to clarify my statements.

The Quran advocates martyrdom.
The Quran allows martyrdom.
The Quran is ok with martyrdom.
The Quran bestows paradise to martyrs.
If you are fighting against the foes of Allah and die you are a martyr.
If you die defending Allah you are a martyr.
If you die defending Islam you are a martyr.
The Quran does not say only one or two or just a few people can die as martyrs.
The Quran does not put any limits on the number of martyrs.

So why not take advantage of a sure path to paradise.
Nothing in the Quran says it is wrong or bad to die a martyr.
So why not get instant paradise.

Perhaps I could have used better terminology whenI said that "very little creativity is required".

The followers of Islam are allready convinced that the west wants to destroy them so why don't they simply rise up in mass to defend Islam. Which in turn would compel the west to destroy them.

My point again is, if the followers of Islam truely want paradise they have an instant means of achieving that goal that is supported by the Quran.

If they do not take advantage of the means that Allah has provided for them how can they claim to follow Islam.

According to the Quran there is no wrong in dieing as a martyr.

So why wouldn't you.

Do followers of Islam like suffering?

Who would delay for one second certain paradise if they truely believed in the Quran?

Who would delay for one second certain paradise if they truely believed in the promise of Allah?


If I believed there was any way to achieve instant paradise, I would take it.

I hope this clarifies my statement on martyrdom.

And as always, I thank you "babloyi" for your heretofore intellectual and scholarly approach to dialogue. And look forward to discussing many more themes.

Cybrseer









[edit on 3-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to post by cybrseer


Nope, I'm still somewhat uncertain as to exactly what you mean. You say it would take very little creativity, but I'm sorry, I just can't think of a situation. Are you suggesting that all muslims rise up and....and....do what?
Attack every westerner they see? Attack the government people (paramedics, school teachers, politicians)? Attack only 'armed personnel' (policemen, security guards, army)? There are far too many problems with such an approach to even start listing them.

The term 'west' is very vague, and wouldn't be a suitable qualifier for all people who people of islam think hates them.

Originally posted by cybrseer
After reviewing the profile of "bodrul" it is clear to me that "bodrul" is a fraud or at best a hypocrite, as no one who professes to be a Muslim would willingly allow the portrayal of harlots and hatred to be associated with their profile.

That leaves me with a couple of thoughts...by extension, then, is anything less than a fundamentalist interpretation of any religious text...Bible, Talmud, etc...also considered by you to be a fraudulent reflection of that faith?

Should true Christians...of the New Testament flavour...not serve in the armed forces? Rather, merely turn the other cheek? Why fight in a war when ultimately it is the meek that shall inherit the earth, right?

I still think that the OP is presenting us with a flippant "Final Solution" for a people he clearly has no stomach for. Shame.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

That leaves me with a couple of thoughts...by extension, then, is anything less than a fundamentalist interpretation of any religious text...Bible, Talmud, etc...also considered by you to be a fraudulent reflection of that faith?

I am opposed to any religion, philosophy, cult, or organization that advocates killing or preaches hate. So by extension I am opposed to any person who follows a religion, philosophy, cult, or organization that advocates killing or preaches hate.

Should true Christians...of the New Testament flavour...not serve in the armed forces? Rather, merely turn the other cheek? Why fight in a war when ultimately it is the meek that shall inherit the earth, right?

No they should not. If your God is real and that which you proclaim of your God is true, then this God has no need of mankinds weapon's. This "God has no need for his creations to kill his other creations. It is stunning how the simplest concepts are so often the most misunderstood.
An all knowing and all powerful God creates mankind then says to some of them, I want you to kill some of the other's that I have created, oh and by the way feel free to use a gun, knife, bomb, tank, or any other means you can find at your disposal, don't forget I am a loving god and only wish the best for you, well except the ones I want you to kill. This kind of reasoning is completely absurd and preposterous.

I still think that the OP is presenting us with a flippant "Final Solution" for a people he clearly has no stomach for. Shame.

I can understand why my opening post may seem "flippant" as there are many idiot jokers that might utilize similar verbage. I have no control over the moron's access and use of language.

With that said, I would make it clear that I was being serious, and that I feel the same way towards all other belief systems which incorporate a God and paradise. If a God is offering paradise who would delay for one second? If I believed a God was offering paradise I would do whatever it takes without delay to achieve it.

In this thread my focus is the Quran and the followers of Islam.


Your final sentence suggest that I decry only followers of Islam.
That is a cheap shot, and beneath any serious dialogue.

I have every intention of starting similar threads in opposition of all belief systems that advocate hatred and death. Among my list is as follows;

Judaism
Christianity as a whole
Catholicism
Mormonism
Seventh Day Adventist


Cybrseer

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by cybrseer

 

Nope, I'm still somewhat uncertain as to exactly what you mean. You say it would take very little creativity, but I'm sorry, I just can't think of a situation. Are you suggesting that all muslims rise up and....and....do what?
Attack every westerner they see? Attack the government people (paramedics, school teachers, politicians)? Attack only 'armed personnel' (policemen, security guards, army)? There are far too many problems with such an approach to even start listing them.

The term 'west' is very vague, and wouldn't be a suitable qualifier for all people who people of islam think hates them.

I appreciate your efforts in seeking my clarification. It appears we are at an impasse. I don't know how I could make my statement any clearer. Perhaps in the near future I will achieve a greater capacity to elucidate my ideas to others.

In the meantime my latest reply to "JohnnyCanuck" may clear up some confusion.

I would invite any who think they understand my point on martyrdom and Islam to offer their thoughts in an effort towards mutual understanding.

One of the realities of not being "All Knowing" is the endless struggle to effectively communicate to others, ones own ideas.

Ok. One more attempt at clarifying my statement on martyrdom and Islam.

If a follower of Islam obeys the instructions of Allah to fight against all who seek to destroy Islam, that follower realizes they may be killed in the defense of Islam. If they were killed in the defense of Islam they would die as a martyr. So using the powers of logical deduction any follower of Islam who CHOOSES to obey Allah and fight for Islam, accepts that their CHOICE to obey Allah may cause them to become a martyr, in effect they CHOOSE to be a martyr. It is my opinion that any follower of Islam who is not fighting for Islam is not obeying Allah. It is also my opinion that any follower of Islam who in fact does fight for Islam will be killed as the followers of Islam do not possess the necessary military might or weaponry to defeat those that would destroy Islam. Therefore they would die as martyrs for simply CHOOSING to obey Allah.

Cybrseer



[edit on 3-4-2008 by cybrseer]

Originally posted by cybrseerI have every intention of starting similar threads in opposition of all belief systems that advocate hatred and death.

Then I'm going to suggest that you speak in general to the your philosophical difficulties with the major organized religions, rather than to mount what looks like progressive individual smears.

In that context, a statement such as the one I made about the dangers of judging a religion by its most fundementalist interpretations, suddenly carries greater weight. One also comes off as less confrontational and more analytical in ones' discourse. Capiche?

reply to post by cybrseer


Thank you for the clarification. It now enables me to respond to you with greater understanding of what you meant. Let me lay out some points:

1. Islam and Allah don't really need defending. Defending is needed by those who are being oppressed or and prevented from practicing their beliefs.

2. Muslims are not allowed to be the aggressors in any conflict.

3. When a mutual treaty, or peace is offered, the Muslims must also accept.

4. Killing of innocents is absolutely forbidden.

5. Definitely, it's very commendable dying a martyr, but there is more than one way it could happen. Dying while performing any sort of struggle in the way of Allah is martyrdom. So you'd become a martyr if you died in the course of gaining an education. You'd be a martyr if you died while traveling. You'd be a martyr if you died defending your property from a thief. You'd be a martyr if you died while defending someone against oppression.

6. Going with actual intent and requirement to lose one's life is suicide. Losing one's life as an incidental cost to what one was doing (protecting someone else, defending oneself, following the commandments of Allah) is martyrdom.

7. Everyone who is a 'westerner' is not against Islam, and neither is 'The West' as a whole against Islam.

So within this framework, how would (and why would) muslims rise up en masse and become martyrs? Unless, of course, you mean the radicals, but then in that case, they are already doing this, and they are already being destroyed because of it. But then again, I'd argue that these radicals are hypocrites, and have more interest in gaining power than following Islam, so this doesn't really apply to them- they send the brainwashed and uneducated (religiously or otherwise) to do their dirty work.

[edit on 4-4-2008 by babloyi]

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Then I'm going to suggest that you speak in general to the your philosophical difficulties with the major organized religions, rather than to mount what looks like progressive individual smears.

In that context, a statement such as the one I made about the dangers of judging a religion by its most fundementalist interpretations, suddenly carries greater weight. One also comes off as less confrontational and more analytical in ones' discourse. Capiche?

Thank you for your suggestions and your astute observations.

I am concerned that if I paint with too broad of a brush that the point will be lost, rendering only a vast undefined space.

I am a fundamentalist and often make other fundamentalists look moderate. This is why I have yet to subscribe to any religious belief system. Every religious belief system that I have studied thus far, if you follow the "letter of the law", leads to hatred, depravity, and death. There are those who say that my interpretation is wrong. If a God wrote a book or inspired a prophet to write a book for me to study and obey, then whose fault is it if I fail to interpret it correctly? Am I to believe that a God is incapable of writing or inspiring a prophet to write a book that his own creations (for whom it was written) cannot understand? I believe a true God is clearly understood by all and does not need an interpreter from among his creations to speak for him. I believe there is no greater perversion or arrogance than one who claims to speak for a true God. Hence my dilemma.






[edit on 4-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to post by babloyi

So within this framework, how would (and why would) muslims rise up en masse and become martyrs? Unless, of course, you mean the radicals, but then in that case, they are already doing this, and they are already being destroyed because of it. But then again, I'd argue that these radicals are hypocrites, and have more interest in gaining power than following Islam, so this doesn't really apply to them- they send the brainwashed and uneducated (religiously or otherwise) to do their dirty work.

Within your framework, followers of Islam would not rise up en masse and become martyrs, nor can I think of any reason why they would.

My fundamentalist approach to the Quran causes me to believe that the "radicals" and/or "hypocrites" are the ones who have correctly interpreted the Quran.

Once again, thanks for your intelligence and acumen.

P.S.

I still have one more thread exclusive to Islam that I am inspired to post before I move on to another topic. I am torn between a general theme of my disdain for Christianity or a more selective diatribe against my most impassioned adversary, Catholicism.

[edit on 4-4-2008 by cybrseer]

reply to post by cybrseer

I'd like to think of myself as a fundementalist, as far as getting down to the fundementals of Islam and the Quran. I can provide exact, contextual, scriptural backing for all my points (except the last one, perhaps). I'd be interested to see your 'interpretations'. As far as I have seen, the radicals don't really even use the Quran in their preaching (or they use it in vague terms to affirm what they want), unless it is cut and mixed to suit their needs (and generally out of context). The same with many detractors of Islam. I find this practice very troublesome, but what can I do about? The most I can do is say, no, this is what is written, see for yourself.

On a side note, it seems to me that you feel the need more to have a rant, and get stuff off your chest, and any associated discussion would be a secondary point. After all, you yourself called what you were doing a 'diatribe'. I could tell you the end result of all your discussions on all these religions, and save you the time: It'll be the same as this one, with you having one viewpoint, and the other having another.