Chinese Air to Air Capability: Where is it?

Originally posted by Darkpr0
so I'd like to ask exactly what the plan for the J-XX program was, to the best of your knowledge. As well, with whatever current information you've got, I'd like to know where the program has progressed to.

What I have gathered from Janes and Chinese internet forums is that the Government proposed a Chinese fighter program on the lines of the Russian MFI and American ATF in 1994~1996 and the Shenyang proposal won. Mainly because of their experience in developing the J-8II fighter and its involvement in the Su-27 we don't know what the Chengdu proposal was or even know if there was a Chengdu proposal.

Then after the successful completion of the J-10 program in 2002, Chengdu proposed a twin engine J-10 because of the apparent success of that program. The SAC had already developed wind tunnel models which are conventional designs similar to the F-22






Chengdu on the other hand is trying to re-model the J-10 to have even more advanced capabilities and will probably end up a 20ton fighter. I am not quite sure if they have official sanction to do this but because of the success of the J-10 in China they felt confident enough to proceed in that development.





Last Year Chengdu confirmed reports that they were working on a new generation radar which is either a PESA or AESA and there have already been pictures released of advanced avionics HUD etc. RAM paint and composite materials are widely used in the J-11B and J-10. China has also been developing TVC for quite a while and released a working prototype at the 2002 Zhuhai airshow and the official confirmation of an advanced turbofan engine which outperforms the AL-31F is also a sign china already has the right technology. All the major technology items have been developed or are in development for a new generation fighter and might leap frog replacing J-7s with J-12s instead of J-10s



Advanced HUD system




If you look at the tread in current Chinese military developments they have not settled on one design. There are only two boats of each class. Three major design changes to a tank which has not entered mass service and quite possibly more active aircraft projects than the US. China is in transitions and it would be a folly to assume that the J-10 will have a production run into the hundreds. Already there is talk of an avionics overall and new engines

If China does opt for the straight shot into mass-production it is possible that they could have the actual aircraft in service before PAK-FA

I am not suggesting that Chinas development is progressing very fast, I am suggesting the PAK-FA development is progressing very slow

Wow, 10 hours away form the computer, and 20 replies! I really appreciate the information and opinions everyone.

I agree that China is moving forward with their manufacturing capabilities. I think that their purchases and license building of the Su-27 and Su-30MK is commendable. I still have some doubts about the quality of their armaments and subsystems. Particularly in the BVR realm. But as time goes by, I see the West's technical advantage drying up. Of course since the US is already fielding the F-22, we have no idea what's 'up the sleeve' of the US or her allies for the next generation of aircraft.

I would love to see a one on one between a J-10 and a current USAF F-16 both loaded out for CAP. Does the US have AESA equipped F-16? If not, are there plans to retrofit? I know the F-35 is supposed to be coming out soon, but I want it to be an engagement between two comparable aircraft. I think the F-16 would win BVR, and it would be a close call WVR, if both sides are using off bore sight IR missiles and helmet mounted sights. (Maybe this should be a separate thread).

Originally posted by armchairaviator
I would love to see a one on one between a J-10 and a current USAF F-16 both loaded out for CAP. Does the US have AESA equipped F-16? If not, are there plans to retrofit? I know the F-35 is supposed to be coming out soon, but I want it to be an engagement between two comparable aircraft. I think the F-16 would win BVR, and it would be a close call WVR, if both sides are using off bore sight IR missiles and helmet mounted sights. (Maybe this should be a separate thread).

The US does not field any operational AESA equipped F-16 nor is it the DoD buying any new F-16's for the USAF, the last one bought was delivered in 2005. There are also currently no plans to equip the newest F-16's with AESA for the future, weapons and avionics upgrades, yes, but not a new radar set. However the USAF does plan to upgrade roughly ~180 of the newest F-15C's the entire F-15E force with new avionics, AESA radar and other systems.

I think the F-16 Block 50/52 would win in BVR too, however you also have to factor in the quality of the personnel. This goes from the General corps all the way down to the airmen who maintains these jets. China simply does not yet have the level of real world experience and quality training, infrastructure etc… to compete in that category with an active western AF such as the USAF.

Also, specific 'this aircraft versus that' threads are not allowed.

P.S. Welcome to ATS.

I did not think we were planning on equipping F-16 with AESA, at least I had not found anything stating that. I agree that training is incredibly important for any AF. Even if you have the latest and greatest, if you do not exploit your capabilities and advantages to their fullest, you are not fighting smart. I will be sure not to post any ___ vs. ___ threads.

reply to post by chinawhite


You didn't answer the question..
But I believe you implied that the J-XX would be ready before the PAK-FA?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
You didn't answer the question..

I'll reserve my opinion when their is concrete information on both programs

Originally posted by chinawhite

The information I am receiving might be 5 years old by the time I am getting it. The J-10 flew in 1998 but in 2004 we were still looking at photoshoped Lavi pictures even through it already entered active service.

I believe what you are trying to say is that all the fake CGI J-XX pics on the net doesn't mean that it does not exist as a real prototype fly-away type today?

fair enough, but here this, all the credible aviation fora on the internet picked up the fact that the J-10 was real, flying and near production much before 2004.These fora do not get wavered by the abundance of CGI fakes or the lack of real photos there in. There are other sources of info to go by.

Same with the PAK-FA. There isn't a single real-life pic till date but most fora agree that development is well under way.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
fair enough, but here this, all the credible aviation fora on the internet picked up the fact that the J-10 was real, flying and near production much before 2004.

You mean like those win-tunnels pictures obtained in 2002?

That and a general consensus that the fighter was a 4th gen thing comparable to other early 4th gen a/c versions of the F-16 etc.
This was not so inaccurate either.
My point is the people who meant to discuss business were informed, one way or the other.

Sorry to take this thread a tiny bit off-topic, but Chinawhite has posted a photo of an interior instrument panel shot. Wasn't there some debate over the origin of that photo? I'd appreciate it if any who remember that discussion to point it out to me.

It's just that I've seen it before, and I remember remarking at the time "Wow. That plane on the left looks a lot like the Mikoyan 1.44. I wonder if it's that elusive Flatpack panel shot I've been searching for?" since I've always been on the hunt for a good shot of the 1.44's instrument panel.

Again, sorry for the temporary hijacking. We now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

I was the one which posted that thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

You did respond and my reply was
"This is rumoured to be the upgraded J-10 systems with a new radar and the AL-31FN-M1, there seems to be no HUD because they have a HMD instead"

Wasn't there some debate over the origin of that photo?

Only StealthSpy. But thats only because he post countless "links" to rubbish and fabricates material as well. He posted a picture of a WS-10A equipped J-11 and then a Su-30MK2 destroyed by a tyhoon and claimed it was destroyed when the engine failed, even though the thread he stole the picture from specifically mentioned nothing about a crash. He has a habit of that behavior


The picture was taken at a Chengdu Avonics testing centre

Here is another set up



And here is the MFD on display at a unknown airshow



It was released during Zhuhai and showed the development of other projects as well

More of the Shenyang proposal. Released by no other than CCTV






More of the same. Chinese MFD have special looking buttons which are different from Russian ones

Originally posted by Daedalus3
My point is the people who meant to discuss business were informed, one way or the other.

The USN was the first to break the news in 1998 and im fairly sure it was mentioned in the new in their defense report on China. Jane's and Flightgloabl also ran a story on it in 2002. Not to mention CCTV posting photos

Aha! Nicely done, I knew that thread was lurking around somewhere.

Thanks for the info, and now back to the show ladies, and gentlemen.