Original Sin

reply to post by tgambill


Thanks TG.. with respect, some good points but not much there to me.

What do you think of the 10 commandments being taken from the Egyptian Book of the dead? as you seem to have totally overlooked that one.

Peace

Originally posted by Annoyed
What exactly was the Original Sin? Was it the act of defiance of God’s dictate not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge? Was it the betrayal of believing the word of the Serpent over the word of God? Or was it acquiring the knowledge of sexual reproduction?

This would be the traditional viewpoint, and it makes sense. The "Tree of Wisdom" was a symbol of the moon, the night, with the constellations and the army of God (the moving planets/"stars". The fruit of the tree was the fruit of the night, while the Tree of Life would be the sun, the lifebringer and the fruit of the day, which allows plants to grow and lifeforms to florish. Normally sex is a nightly business. The idea was and is that the plan of God is written in the heavens. Like the moon use 29 days from new moon to new moon, the menstruation period needed to produce children, is exactly 29 days. That was the curse God put on Eve. The moon appears to be eaten up from full to new moon, thus it fits perfectly. However sex was just a small part of the fruit. Astrology, calendars and much more...

Originally posted by Annoyed

What exactly was the Original Sin? Was it the act of defiance of God’s dictate not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge? Was it the betrayal of believing the word of the Serpent over the word of God? Or was it acquiring the knowledge of sexual reproduction?

This last idea had never before occurred to me, but when they discussed Mary’s purity, I could not help but wonder about this. It seems that Adam and Eve did not have children before eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

It also seems that after the act of eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, they began to cover themselves from the sight of God, hence the Fig Leaves. Well, does it not follow that they apparently did not hide their nudity from each other, because they did proceed to multiply? This might be taken to imply that they have more loyalty to each other, no embarrassment, more trust, than they do with God. So, that might infer that the betrayal is the Original Sin, instead of sexual reproduction. Could it have been betrayal by sex? That might cover both sides of the question.

The genesis god told them to go forth and multiply, replenish the earth, before being expelled from eden. I think they were playthings for the gods to watch and sex was the show, till the lovers ate of the fruit and gained knowledge which opened there minds to shame. They knew they were being used and watched, and with that they wished to cloth themselves. Since this pulled the plug on the gods sex tales in action, the gods became irritated when they tuned back in and the show was canceled. This proves the gods were not omnipotent since they had to ask the duo what they did, and became angry and finally threw the duo out.

Originally posted by WorldShadow
The genesis god told them to go forth and multiply, replenish the earth, before being expelled from eden.

Not exactly. You see there are two different creation stories in Genesis. In the first God creates everything there is in seven days. Man is created last and God tells them to multiply, just like that.

In the second, Genesis 2:4ff, Man is created first and is probably prohibited from doing the deeds of the night, among them, sex. As I have said there were two trees in the midst of the garden, the symbolised moon (Wisdom) and the sun (Life) like two trees. Their paths on the sky from a geocentric viewpoint resembles that of a serpent. The moon seams to be eaten up when it moves from face to face. A lunar cycle lasts 29 days, the same as God's curse on Eve, Menstruation.

reply to post by P-a-r-a-d-o-X-2


Arg! darn computer just deleted my post, now i'm rewriting.....

You raise some interesting questions, but if you step outside our western mindset, you'll get a bigger picture.
To start, the issue of the law was present long before Egypt - the message of redemption, and of sacrificial atonement, had been there near the beginning of creation, which you will find reflected in the early chapters of Genesis. Nothing new was added in Egypt; anything similar you find in Egyptian mythology is there for one reason: GOd has instilled in EVERY one a conscience; you automatically know what's right and wrong. Aside from that, any similarity between Egyptian myth and "The Way" is the result of imitation. See, yon Egyptians were worshipping spirits and fallen beings; Satan routinely imitates truth to lead people (like you and me) astray.

Son vs Sun:
This may seem like an "oh yeah" moment, but other languages don't spell "sun" and "son" like english. There's no alliterative confusion.

chicken vs. egg:
At some point, you'll have to admit the limitations of our own understanding, and choose to believe that either (a) some kind of "matter" or "plane" existed first, or (b) God created everything, so somehow he exists without a physical realm. I can't help you there, but personally, I don't really find temporal issues like that to be relevant to my existence; I'm more concerned with what my future holds, and how to save others who are pursuing a false truth.
Jesus told his disciples to have faith like "little children"; honestly, if you have the right answer in front of you, do you really need every single detail before you can accept it?



[edit on 7-4-2008 by wannabe]

reply to post by wannabe

Arg! darn computer just deleted my post, now i'm rewriting.....

Hehe.. I find when things like that happen its like a sign to say dont do it but how we interperate that sign depends what we believe.

When you say the issue of the law was long before Egypt, I understand your point but... how old is the creation of man by the bible, 6000 years? would you agree the planet is older than that but our human creation was just 6000 years ago?

Originally posted by P-a-r-a-d-o-X-2
...how old is the creation of man by the bible, 6000 years? would you agree the planet is older than that but our human creation was just 6000 years ago?

Just did this simple experiment in another thread. The Bible is accurate.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Remember, One of Satan's greatest achievements was convincing the world that he does not exist. Satan, was around since the beginning of time also and before as Lucifer. He is the deceiver. In much the same way God and the Holy Spirit inspires those that will hear and become obedient so does Satan with those that hear him. The age of the religions and the similiarity is not the number of years before according to our calandar but its the inspiration of where they came from.


reply to post by P-a-r-a-d-o-X-2

Originally posted by tgambill
Satan, was around since the beginning of time also and before as Lucifer.

Hehe. This is a typical modern Christian misconception. Satan was never called Lucifer. This lie was brought in by the Catholics around 300 AD when the Latin Vulgata was written. Instead of using the name which was written in Isaiah 14:12, Heylel, they incorporated the name Lucifer which they had from Roman mythology. A similar, perhaps the same god as Lucifer is also known in Greek mythology, Phosphoros, "Bringer of Dawn". The concept of Lucifer being an angel of God is totally fictive and has it's roots in books like Dante's Divine Comedy and Miltons Paradise Lost. Just forget it. Satan has many names and personalities in Hebrew tradition, but he has never been Lucifer.

Originally posted by P-a-r-a-d-o-X-2
reply to post by wannabe

 

When you say the issue of the law was long before Egypt, I understand your point but... how old is the creation of man by the bible, 6000 years? would you agree the planet is older than that but our human creation was just 6000 years ago?

About the rewrite, I don't read into it, its just another reason for me to hate computers.........

Older? Like how Mystic is trying to connect the bible with a cosmic evolutionary timeline?
Yes and No. The flood destroyed the original creation, so we can't know exactly how many 1000s of years, so its probably a little longer than 6000, or at least I assume so. It may be in scripture somewhere, but I don't know where it would be. Big bang and the day-age theory? Nah. Here's why: everything is winding down, a la the laws of thermodynamics. Sure, the universe had a localized starting point, but I'm not convinced our planet came from the heart of a sun(doubt? check out the last 30 years of cosmology). Even the speed of light is slowing - 6,000 years ago, it was at least a million times faster than it is today, if we can trust the computer models based on measurements over the last few decades. Makes you wonder what happens when it approaches 0%, huh?

Furthermore, if you really look into the meaning of the words "morning" and "evening" from Genesis one, you get a different understanding. The context is, "evening and morning were the 1st day." First of all, timewise, that's backwards, so it doesn't mean a literal day like we think of it. It means something a little bit more, but i'll leave that for later.........



Obviously, I'm not trying to teach you everything here(I'm not a great teacher, anyway ). I merely want to share MY experience with you, enough to spur you to greater and deeper study. I'm just a witness to the reality of God, the truth of the Bible, and the impact of Jesus.

[edit on 8-4-2008 by wannabe]

that's easy, read Genesis, case solved, end of story. However the scriptures say that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners. Look in Psalm 51:5, it states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."

Even in Ephesians 2:2, it says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born.

Proverbs 22:15 says "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child."

Genesis 8:21 declares, "...the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Jonathon Edwards, remarks that on this verse: "The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence...so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy."

Humanity is Often Described in General Terms as Unrighteous
Unrighteousness is often spoken of in Scripture as something belonging to the human race as a whole. Sinfulness is considered a property of human nature after the fall. Thus, it must be concluded that we are all born sinners, since we are all born human and sin is regarded as a property of humanity. In this vein, consider Ephesians 2:1-3:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Paul is here reminding Christians of what they were like before their conversion to Christ ("you were dead in your trespasses...in which you formerly walked"). Thus, all people, until and unless they are converted, are sinners. Paul goes on to make it absolutely clear that all Christians came from this state ("...we to all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh") and that all non-Christians are still in this state ("...and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.") Thus, Scripture regards all people before they are saved by Christ as sinners and thus deserving of punishment from God. Which is to say that from the inception of our existence, we are sinful.

In Psalm 14:2, 3 we read: "The Lord has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." Here again we see unrighteousness as a property of the human race: "they have all turned aside...there is no one who does good."

Job 15:14 similarly declares that sinfulness is a property of humanity: "What is man, that he should be pure, or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" Verses 15-16 then speaks of the human race as a whole in shocking terms expressing our general corruption: "Behold, He puts no trust in His holy ones, And the heavens are not pure in His sight; How much less one who is detestable and corrupt, Man, who drinks iniquity like water!"

Jeremiah 17:9 says that "the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it." This seems to assume original sin--wickedness is a property of the human heart. Ecclesiastes 9:3 declares a similar truth: "...the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts through their lives." Again, the human heart is sinful, and therefore all humans are sinful.

These texts indicate, then, that human nature is corrupt. Therefore, even infants are corrupt because they are human. And if infants are corrupt, then this is the same as saying that we are born corrupt--which means we are born with original sin. One may, however, object that these texts speak nothing of infants, only those who are old enough to make moral decisions. All of those people are sinful, but this doesn't mean that infants are.

This is an ingenious objection, but it does not succeed. First, the texts do not seem to restrict themselves to people who are old enough to make intelligent decisions. They seem to speak of human nature as a whole, a classification under which infants certainly fall. Second, as Jonathan Edwards pointed out, "..this would not alter the case...For if all mankind, as soon as ever they are capable of reflecting, and knowing their own moral state, find themselves wicked, this proves that they are wicked by nature."

In other words, even if these verses were only speaking of people old enough to mentally understand sin, they would still be teaching original sin. For on that view, these verses would be saying that all people, as soon as they know good from evil, find themselves sinners. But if all people, as soon as they are capable of moral decisions, find themselves sinners, this proves that they are that way by nature.

Third, Edwards also says, "why should man be so continually spoken of as evil, carnal, perverse, deceitful, and desperately wicked, if all men are by nature as perfectly innocent, and free form any propensity to evil, as Adam was the first moment of his creation?" (Edwards, The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin, 188).


Infants die, therefore they are not innocent
Death--both physical and spiritual--is a result of sin (Romans 5:12; 6:23). Thus, death only comes upon those who have sinned. Since infants die, they therefore must be sinners.

reply to post by wannabe


Interesting thoughts I understand you. Im going to let things go round my head and I'l get back here when I can. Thanks

"A similar, perhaps the same god as Lucifer is also known in Greek mythology, Phosphoros, "Bringer of Dawn"."

******the Bible defines Satan as an angelic being who fell from his position in heaven due to sin and is now diametrically opposed to God, doing all in his power to thwart God's purposes for humanity.

The greatest achievement that Satan accomplished was to convince the World that he doesn't exist. Big mistake.

Satan was created as a holy angel. Isaiah 14:12 possibly gives Satan’s pre-fall name as Lucifer. Ezekiel 28:12-14 describes Satan as having been created a cherubim, and was apparently the highest created angel. He became arrogant in his beauty and status, and decided he wanted to sit on a throne above that of God (Isaiah 14:13-14; Ezekiel 28:15; 1 Timothy 3:6). Satan’s pride led to his fall. Notice the many “I will…” statements in Isaiah 14:12-15. Because of his sin, God threw Satan out of heaven.

Satan became the ruler of this world that functions apart from God, and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Ephesians 2:2). He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10), a tempter (Matthew 4:3; 1 Thessalonians 3:5), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4; Revelation 20:3). His very name means adversary or “one who opposes.” Another name used for Satan, the devil, means “slanderer.”

Even though he was cast out of heaven, he still seeks to elevate his throne above God. He counterfeits all that God does, hoping to gain the worship of the world and foment opposition to God's kingdom. Satan is the ultimate source behind every false cult and world religion. Satan will do anything and everything in his power to oppose God, and those who follow God. However, Satan’s destiny is sealed – an eternity in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

Satan as Lucifer was in Heaven at some time before the creation of the Earth or the Universe. Pride and ego got the best of him and he was tossed out of Heaven along with millions of followers, to be the prince of the air. His followers have a heirarchy in every continent.......true story.
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The concept of Lucifer being an angel of God is totally fictive and has it's roots in books like Dante's Divine Comedy and Miltons Paradise Lost.

******) sure if Dante was born before the beginnings of Earth, and that was a long time go. Sorry, but you are dead wrong. Its not even debatable. Satan/lucifer was at one time one of the most powerful Angel's in Heaven. He got pride and ego and ambition, raised a rebellion and was thrown out of Heaven. We as human are like one celled organisms compared to the real universe around us. The roots of Satan is long before Dante and Militon and even before the dawn of the universe.


"Just forget it. Satan has many names and personalities in Hebrew tradition, but he has never been Lucifer."

*****Absolutely wrong. Lucifer was his first name as an Arch-Angel in Heaven, and was renamed Satan after he was thrown out of Heaven. Someone is lying to you are grossly mistaken.

Originally posted by P-a-r-a-d-o-X-2
reply to post by wannabe

 

Interesting thoughts I understand you. Im going to let things go round my head and I'l get back here when I can. Thanks

IN rereading my posts, they seem to come off a little holier-than-thou. they're not, but you have to sacrifice certain things when you're shooting for brevity. just so you know....
Also, if you've been on the main page recently, it seems that some of our less high-minded brethren have a problem with these kinds of discussions. I think its funny, for a number of reasons. You may get a good laugh out of it......or just a sense of despair, for these people that want to talk about ONLY trivial things.....