Original Sin

reply to post by Byrd


I understand what you are saying. I think what I want to know is whether or not sex has anything to do with the Original Sin, and if so, how? I had always considered Original Sin to be more about disobeyance, until I heard the discussion on this TV show.

Originally posted by Annoyed

Are you saying that guilt is the Original Sin? Or a result of Original Sin?

I am saying there is no such thing as sin. You have never sinned against God and neither have I.

Religion exploits the normal human emotion that each of us feel when we believe we have done something wrong. When we screw up, we feel remorse. Religion turns that remorse into a crime against God and demands we give them money and our free will to make that remorse go away, or at least feel we have been forgiven for our screw ups.

Religion is the exploitation of your fear.

Stop fearing God and you will have no need for religion.

I do not mean to ridicule anyone who believes this and I respect the individual's right to religion.

But...

How can a God who supposedly created man and woman be so cruel as to taint the souls of their descendents with Original Sin ? The very concept of this has us doomed before we are even born.

Aren't all children born innocent but learn to be evil and corrupt? Obviously not because they have already sinned by inheriting guilt.

These man made constructs have been passed down through generations of Christianity to control the masses. It is very telling that sheep figure consistently in Christianity for men ar sheep, following blindly and the followers of Christianity are often referred to as "flock". And yes I understand that this is all figurative but it fits the purpose to control very well with "the lord is my shepherd"

As I said before I mean no disrespect...I just see it as it is and I do not buy it.


take care
res

reply to post by mrwupy


Hm, perhaps I was not precise, my apologies. I should have said "commonly referred to as the Original Sin". I really did not mean to imply either that I did or did not consider this to be a "sin" myself. I will try to be more careful.

Originally posted by resistancia
I do not mean to ridicule anyone who believes this and I respect the individual's right to religion.

But...

How can a God who supposedly created man and woman be so cruel as to taint the souls of their descendents with Original Sin ? The very concept of this has us doomed before we are even born.

Aren't all children born innocent but learn to be evil and corrupt? Obviously not because they have already sinned by inheriting guilt.

Your statement indicates a conscience inborn into humanity. If this is so, who planted the conscience? Where does it originate? That was one of my questions before turning to Christianity and my belief system.

We are, in essence, doomed before birth because of the original sin, which I explained above. A robot programmed to love God cannot love God freely.

These are, of course, my beliefs and I'm in no way trying to make you to believe the same way I do. But I do like to discuss the matters openly and with a non-judgemental attitude.

Originally posted by resistancia
I do not mean to ridicule anyone who believes this and I respect the individual's right to religion.

But...

How can a God who supposedly created man and woman be so cruel as to taint the souls of their descendents with Original Sin ? The very concept of this has us doomed before we are even born.

Aren't all children born innocent but learn to be evil and corrupt? Obviously not because they have already sinned by inheriting guilt.

These man made constructs have been passed down through generations of Christianity to control the masses. It is very telling that sheep figure consistently in Christianity for men ar sheep, following blindly and the followers of Christianity are often referred to as "flock". And yes I understand that this is all figurative but it fits the purpose to control very well with "the lord is my shepherd"

As I said before I mean no disrespect...I just see it as it is and I do not buy it.


take care
res

Actually I agree. My question wasn't really meant in a religious manner, more a scholarly one. I am interested in how this affects our concepts of religion, spirituality and many other facets of our culture. I think ancient traditions mold our society,to a degree, and discussions such as these can enlighten us as to in what wayand whether or not they are beneficial or detrimental, though I suppose this information could also be used in evil ways ... hm ... food for thought. Thank you!

Religion exploits the normal human emotion that each of us feel when we believe we have done something wrong. When we screw up, we feel remorse. Religion turns that remorse into a crime against God and demands we give them money and our free will to make that remorse go away, or at least feel we have been forgiven for our screw ups.

Religion is the exploitation of your fear.

Stop fearing God and you will have no need for religion.

Remorse is a healthy feeling in that it teaches you to stop doing something wrong. Just as anger can be healthy as it means something or someone has done something that goes against your belief system. When remorse or anger are felt, it should be examined to determine whether the belief system makes sense, or whether is has been an over-reaction.

Fear is also a healthy feeling in that it makes you try to prevent something bad happening to you. Without fear, we would not seek food, comfort, or keep ourselves from danger. We would just exist and allow anything to happen to us that may.

Originally posted by Neiby
Does any of this really matter? Why would it matter if one mythological person had an immaculate birth or if there had been two? That's like arguing over how many horses pull Apollo's chariot as he pushes the sun across the sky.

it does matter because he really did exist, there is enough hard evidence to prove it.

Keeper

"Sin" entered the race of Mankind through adam when he fell in the garden of eden, thus everyone who is born is born in sin, the nature of man is sinful in all aspects, fleshly, spiritually and mentally. Jesus came and gave us a "New Creation" erasing the sinful nature and giving us the nature of God, to all those that accept him although the flesh remains sinful and the mind must be renewed daily man now has the ability to be in rightstanding with God. Man was found guilty of sin, and because of that he must die. God sent his son to save us from death.


Keeper

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
"Sin" entered the race of Mankind through adam when he fell in the garden of eden, thus everyone who is born is born in sin, the nature of man is sinful in all aspects, fleshly, spiritually and mentally. Jesus came and gave us a "New Creation" erasing the sinful nature and giving us the nature of God, to all those that accept him although the flesh remains sinful and the mind must be renewed daily man now has the ability to be in rightstanding with God. Man was found guilty of sin, and because of that he must die. God sent his son to save us from death.


Keeper

So it is a case of blame mankind for one disobedient soul's slip up ? That just does not cut it in the real world and if God was fair and just, no one would be born in sin.

As for Jesus coming and erasing the sinful nature of man does that include all the Catholic clergy who are guilty of paedophilia ? The way I am seeing it is that even those who are held up as paragons of Gods's word are evil.


res

Here's a thought:

It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. When using the entire name, does it imply that acquiring the knowledge of good and evil was what is referred to as the Original Sin? What would be the evil in sexual relations if he created the ability for such in us? Unless, of course, the sex has nothing to do with what is referred to as the Original Sin. But if sex has nothing to do with what is referred to as the Original Sin, then why did Adam and Eve not have sexual relations before eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Or maybe it has something to do with good sex and evil sex, hm. Hadn't considered that either. So maybe they did have sex, but it was neutral sex?

Also, Eve was told her punishment would be to give birth in pain, correct? That would pretty much imply that either she did not give birth prior to that decree, or that such had been painfree (I can't imagine!).

reply to post by resistancia


Well, you are basing your comments on a few bad apples that exist in any form of organization or institution. That, my friend, is a form of classification that doesn't fit the whole entirety of the Christian faith. There are a whole lot more good folks than bad ones, just like there are a whole lot more good investment bankers than there are bad ones (to use a recent societal problem as an example). But the bad ones get brought to light and it places the whole of the institution into the classification.

God has been manipulated.
From the beginning, man has tried to advert God's vegence away from themselves.
"On that day, ye shall surely die."
Adam started right in, trying to deflect God's anger.
First it was hiding, then shifting the blame, and finaly offering sacrifice.
There is power in argument.
A lot of bible experts think that the oldest book of the Bible is Job.
Job is like an instruction manual on how to argue with God.
Noah was able to save himself and his family and Moses talked God into spareing Israel.
Jesus, in these last days, has been able to deflect God's anger.
That is, untill the falling away.
God will then let loose his full anger apon the earth, without dilution.
Once God's final mediator for man has been rejected, it is all over for us.
The Israelites took the form of the comet that rescued them and made a depiction of it, in the form of a bull, and worshipped it.
Man has taken the form of the man who was able to stop God from destroying us,(with his own sacrifice) and made his image into a god and worship it.
Once there are no believers in the living God the destuction of the earth will occur.

Slightly off topic?
The man, Jesus was perfect.
His life is the replacement for all of our sinful lives.
Once we make Jesus, not a man, our protection is gone and the end will come.
Lucky for all you blasphemers out there, there are still a few who believe the straight gospel.
When we are gone, you are on your own.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by idle_rocker

Remorse is a healthy feeling in that it teaches you to stop doing something wrong. Just as anger can be healthy as it means something or someone has done something that goes against your belief system. When remorse or anger are felt, it should be examined to determine whether the belief system makes sense, or whether is has been an over-reaction.

Fear is also a healthy feeling in that it makes you try to prevent something bad happening to you. Without fear, we would not seek food, comfort, or keep ourselves from danger. We would just exist and allow anything to happen to us that may.

I agree with you 100%. Sometimes you will get angry and you have the right to get angry. Sometimes you will fear and you should be afraid. You will feel remorse for things you have done in your life. These are normal human emotions and they are a part of being alive.

They are not sins though.

They are the emotions religion exploit to get you to believe in them.

Lose your religion and you will find God, in ways greater than you can even imagine.

A few questions.......

If Adam had've been the first to eat the forbidden fruit would he have been punished more severely than Eve?

What if only ONE of them ate the forbidden fruit and the other refused?

What if neither of them ate it but later on one of their descendants did?

Oops, this is reply to MrWupy

That is my point. They are normal human emotions and need not be considered sinful, unless used (reacted to) in an abnormal way. It seems to me people don't understand the difference between what is expected of them as normal human beings and what is acceptable in God's sight.

[edit on 3/15/08 by idle_rocker]

Originally posted by MissInformation
A few questions.......

If Adam had've been the first to eat the forbidden fruit would he have been punished more severely than Eve?

The funny thing is God did not tell Eve not to eat it. Adam did. Eve was deceived Adam was not. He did it because Eve did. And if you go read the account you'll see God did not come looking for Eve after the event he asked Adam about it. Adams first reaction was the typical human tactic he said "it was that woman that you sent to me." Effectively shifting blame from Eve to God himself.

What if only ONE of them ate the forbidden fruit and the other refused?

What if neither of them ate it but later on one of their descendants did?

No one will ever know...

reply to post by Annoyed


If what you want to know is the meaning of the original sin you no need to step any far away from The bible, if you are a faithful believer its very clear and define by the Church.

But if you are looking for contributions and debate on what others see and interpret the biblical (old testament) and Christian (new testament ) I will give a paragraph by Ayn Rand on the conspiracy angle of it, this one I like the best.

The doctrine of the original sin, declares that (man) ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge he acknowledge of good and evil he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire. The evils for which (the preachers) damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy, all the cardinal values of his existence.

www.aynrand.org...

Now if you take the words of Rev. Horton, in his book the agony of deceit page, 135, back in the 90s he made a new interpretation of the original sin.

The idea meant by the expression of original sin is that all humans are born sinners. There is not such thing as an innocent littler baby. From conception, each of us merits The wrath and judgment of God (Psalm 51:5) Due to original sin, I am bent toward myself and I am charged with Adam's guilt. I ca be sent to hell whether I have personally committed a sin or not. (Page 137) But original guilt, after all, is the whole point of this biblical teaching.

www.amazon.com...

So as you can see is to the believes of the individual in their particular faith base in the Christian doctrine to interpret it as they seem fix.


[edit on 15-3-2008 by marg6043]

[edit on 15-3-2008 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


That's great, where's the Scriptural support for this doctrine, book, chapter, and verse, please?

If one lives a moral life there is no need for religion.

I do not consider myself to be an evil person because I refuse to practice a religion. I also do not feel that I am missing out on anything.

I was raised and educated as a Catholic and there really is no need for others to try an make me believe.


take care
res