Wondering after the beast

First I want to tell you that I read here a great deal more than I post. And I've noticed several threads, responses and a general discussion (here) more on the beast and his system than the Messiah and His Kingdom. I find this very alarming, for many reasons:

Here are a few passages: (Rev 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And (Rev 17:2) With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

I'm not trying to convey that 'we' should stop discussion on the things spoken in the Holy bible, never. But from a strong believer (me) to fellow believers (you) I would like to warn and remind you of the above passages. And also to put this in your mind:

(Colossians 3:16)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
And
Titus 1:8
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate

I 'bolded' the word sober, because we should not intoxicate ourselves with the wine of her fornication.

And just so you know, I'm not just posting this for you, but also for me, I find myself wondering after the beast sometimes too. But I know that we should always follow after our Messiah and His Kingdom and think and speak on whatever things are pure and whatever things are holy.

Remember that we have been set free from the bondage of sin and the hold of satan, through Yahshua (Jesus) our Messiah. There is nothing in this world for a believer to fear, not even the wicked imaginiations of those who are long since drunk with 'her' wine.

Let me end with this. No one here knows who the antichrist is. We can all guess, speculate, accuse and wonder But not one of us will know without the entire world having been revealed his identity. However it is safe to say, that as long as we continue in the word that was given to us and believed, the same word that brought us to the love of our Messiah, then what does it even matter who the antichrist is anymore?? He's just a shadow fallen in the brightness and glory of our Saviour Yahshua Messiah.
And why concern ourselves with his mark, number or name? We carry the the name and mark of our Father and His Son, do you honestly think that anything can get through that shield?? 'They' could pin me down and place six hundred and sixty six chips in my hand and yet that would have no affect on who it is that I adore and worship. Your reverence and worship is in your works (hand) and your mind (forehead) it is a sign between you and God that you are His.

So that's all. That's the biggest conspiracy I see in the religions topic.

reply to post by Elisha4Yah


I am curious as to what do you see the beast as? There are different interpretations. Is it a person or an institution?
Are the 2 Beasts? First and second?
The Beast in Revelation 13 and 17 are they the same thing?
Revelation 13 also has the same number of horns as does the beast of Daniel 7,
rev13 sounds like a person rev 17 an institution
Perhaps as both a person and an institution...

I hear what the OP is saying, but to know your enemy brings you closer to defeating your enemy.

"Knowing the other and knowing oneself,
In one hundred battles no danger.
Not knowing the other and knowing oneself,
One Victory for one loss.
Not knowing the other and not knowing oneself,
In every battle certain defeat."
- Sun Tzu

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

 

I am curious as to what do you see the beast as? There are different interpretations. Is it a person or an institution?
Are the 2 Beasts? First and second?
The Beast in Revelation 13 and 17 are they the same thing?
Revelation 13 also has the same number of horns as does the beast of Daniel 7,
rev13 sounds like a person rev 17 an institution
Perhaps as both a person and an institution...

See that's kinda the thing BW. It's not about how I see it/him or you see it/him, it's how Yahshua see's it/him and explains it to His followers in the scriptures. I use the (it/him) because there are several places in the bible that say it when referring to the beast and him also when referring to that same beast. So which is it? It's possibly both, it could be a system(it) of satan which is exalted by man(him). Hence is possibly why the beast was wounded then healed. Yahshua clearly wounded satan in the head, so what makes that image revived? Only a type of following or reverence would, or even wondering. I say 'could' because I'm no prophet or seer at all, but I believe I listen as carefully as possible to the understanding given me when reading and trying to understand the scriptures. No one has the full revelation of Yahshua *yet* but we're getting there!! But how can we expect to get on the right side of the road so to speak if we're consistantly following after the left?

Yes, I agree, keep your friends close and your enemies closer, but in the case of the beast/satan etc, this rule does not apply. We need to keep it/him as distant as possible and even continually pray for the binding up of all the powers of satan, in then name of Yahshua!

And yes BW, there are different interpretations, that's what get's so intoxicating. But there is only ONE interpretation of Yahshua!

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

satan/the beast has no power over you unless you let him no matter how much you research or talk about him. He's a child having a tantrum because he couldn't have his way. As long as you are true to your faith then he can't harm you

Originally posted by QBSneak000
satan/the beast has no power over you unless you let him no matter how much you research or talk about him. He's a child having a tantrum because he couldn't have his way. As long as you are true to your faith then he can't harm you

Agreed. But what is with 'us' digging into the enemies so called treasures anyway? Aren't we to store up our treasures in Heaven? And where your heart is there shall be your treasure? Don't think for a minute that the enemy can't get a believer side-tracked and get your mind off Yahshua, isn't that what it/he wants anyway. According to the bible it is exactly what it/he wants.

I quoted in the OP the verses that help us to keep our eye on Yahshua. It's kind of like Peter on the water, he was fine until he took his eyes off Yahshua, then he began to sink. Do you get what I'm saying??

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
And just so you know, I'm not just posting this for you, but also for me, I find myself wondering after the beast sometimes too. But I know that we should always follow after our Messiah and His Kingdom and think and speak on whatever things are pure and whatever things are holy.

To “Wonder” after the beast does not mean to think about it, or speculate on what it is. The meaning of the Latin used for ‘Wonder” is:

thaumazō
thou-mad'-zo
From G2295; to wonder; by implication to admire: - admire, have in admiration, marvel, wonder.

So wondering is admiring the beast, not speculating about it. It’s a good thing for Christians to read, and try and understand prophecy, and there is even a special blessing given to those who do:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Prophecy, however, is the most complex of all the things in the Bible, and a solid understanding of the rest of the Bible is required to interpret it.

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
Let me end with this. No one here knows who the antichrist is. We can all guess, speculate, accuse and wonder But not one of us will know without the entire world having been revealed his identity.

There are many antichrists, this is stated in the Bible:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

I understand that most of what people are taught, read, or see in the media today, teaches that there is to be a one time all powerful antichrist at some point in the future, that is not the only (and not the most accurate) interpretation of that scripture. If John had intended for “The Beast” to be interpreted as “An Antichrist”, he would have written that, but he did not. Instead he followed the prophetic language of the Book of Daniel, which was much older and he would have been familiar with. What does the prophetic language of Daniel tell us about the beasts?

Dan 7:16-18 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

So according to the angel who interpreted for Daniel, the Beasts are kingdoms. With this in mind, and considering that the first beast mentioned in revelations is based on the four beasts of Daniel 7, why would John use this same prophetic language to then talk about a man?

The answer is he would not. Speculating about different men being the “beast” is nothing more then a waste of time, as it will not be a man, but a kingdom. Identifying the kingdom is pretty simple, just look at history and the descriptions of all the proceeding kingdoms in that line. The line is well known to many who study prophecy, and is as follows:

Babylon
Media/Persia
Greece
Rome

These were all the most powerful, worldly, and opulent nations from the time of Daniel onward. They were also considered to be the ruling nations of the "known world" of the day, what we would classify today as superpower nations. As the first beast in Revelations is the line of preceding beasts, the final beast is a nation that did not exist yet at the time that John penned his prophecies.

Wondering after the Beast means wanting to be a part of this worldly, opulent system of government, and receiving the “mark” is accepting citizenship into that system. There is much in prophecy that relates back to Rome, and the “mark” relates to Roman citizenship, and the special privileges granted to someone that accepted Roman Citizenship. That is why the final beast is based on the beast which preceded it, Rome (which was the most opulent world superpower at the time John wrote the prophecies).

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

There are many Christians, who are unwilling to accept what I have written here, because the implications of it would require a drastic change in their own lifestyles. Even I find it difficult to accept at times. One of the ways that they deal with this is by coming up with other interpretations of prophecy “to scratch their own itching ears”. That is the greatest conspiracy in the Christian Church today, the acceptance of Jesuit Futurism over Historicism.

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
And why concern ourselves with his mark, number or name?

Because a Christian who is not on guard may be mislead into accepting the mark. One of the problems we have as humans is that we have a limited lifespan, and often do not see the big picture. Many things that we may take for granted as acceptable, may not have been to someone who lived 100 years ago. So a good Christian can actually think something is good or acceptable, because it is socially acceptable in this lifetime, when in fact its not.

I hope that helps and makes some sense.

I fully understand what you're saying I just feel that discussing him in detail isn't going to make me less close to God. In fact, I believe God would want us to know, study and learn as much as we can about satan. I see that you are a pretty faith driven person so you also would agree that in the end its going to be a battle between good and evil. To know evil is to conquer evil and as long as we remain faithful then thats all that matters. I do see your point with people becoming fascinated with the subject or seduced by it but truly thats what its all about isn't it? a test? to see who can get past the temptation, to see who is truly worthy not to mention that as long as those people who have sinned in the eyes of God repent and accept the J man as their true savior then they shall be forgiven.....at least thats what I understand from the bible.

-just to also note, im not a particularly religious person. I do believe in a higher power BUT I don't believe in organized religion in any form. After all man is fallible so why would I put any trust into what he has written. I believe my relationship with God is between me and him/her and no man shall be an intermediary ie:priest for me.

reply to post by defcon5



Oh how I wish I had more characters. So I could respond to all that you've written in detail. But since I don't, I'll say that I have read some of your posts and like or enjoy what you say. And I agree and have learned a thing or two too!

I know that wondering means exactly what you've stated. And yet it still applies to that which I've pointed out in the OP. There is a line between discussing those things pertaining to the enemy in the bible and then actually following after it or gazing upon it. You and I might not 'see' it in our minds as admiration but how about how God views it. OK dumb example time: I don't care much about the business of let's say, Brittney Spears, but if I were to continually search into her personal affairs, it might certainly appear that I admire her, which I don't.

Speculating could very well lead us into the trap of admiration, or wondering. It's like where Yahshua talks about not knowing the deeper truths of satan. What good does it do us? We are not to partake of the table of devils, right? So if constantly talking about it and who it is and what it is, is not partaking of the table of devils then I don't know what else is. What else would be the deception that leads people astray? Being led astray is wondering off somewhere into the great dark unknown. And feeding the lies being told 'out there' and then feasting on them with those who DON'T believe in Yahshua.

Yes there are many antichrists!! Tons in fact! And then there are those who say they are Christs, but are not. These you will know by their fruits. I don't recall where I said that the beast and the antichrist are one and the same, maybe I did?? But I absolutely agree with you. The beasts are kingdoms, governed by men, who have no regard whatsoever for God and His Word.

And yep, I agree again that wondering after the beast is wondering after this world and the things it has to offer which are contrary to the Kingdom of God. So isn't it fair to say that we should then walk by faith and NOT by sight in this world? Walking by faith is not looking around for every single sign that will pin point the second coming, including the biggest sign that most believers 'look' for-the antichrist. Me, as a believer, long to see the face of the one I worship, and don't much care to know the face of the one who opposes the one I worship. I wonder after and even long for my Messiah's second appearing from Heaven with all of the saints who I love dearly for delivering the word and testimony of Him.

I can't say I'm always on guard. I'm probably not always on guard as I'd want to be. But I trust totally in my Saviours words when He said "I will never leave or forsake thee" and "Lo, I will be with thee, even unto the end of the age" So I know that even when I'm weak, which is a lot, He is strong, for me. So I don't concern myself with the 'mark' because I know I've already been branded by Yahweh through His Son, His blood. Nothing can penetrate that shield, period. But I also know that I can wonder off and/or fall away, so I am careful not to seek the business of the enemy and all his lying signs and 'wonders'.

Does that better explain my OP? God forbid if there is no one to sound the alarm.


[edit on 6-3-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

reply to post by Elisha4Yah


I think Yeshua wants us to use our discernment and do our best to unravel the prophecies. First of all he wouldn't have given them if we weren't to ponder them. Secondly there might not be a pretib rapture so it would be wise to know all you can about what might be up.

A little precedence can be taken from...
2 Corinthians 2:10-11
"I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes."

I suppose what you mean is that we shouldn't take such a morbid fascination in it that we stop spending time helping others and worshiping God. But I think we should educate ourselves and we should be aware in my opinion.

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
I agree again that wondering after the beast is wondering after this world and the things it has to offer which are contrary to the Kingdom of God. So isn't it fair to say that we should then walk by faith and NOT by sight in this world? Walking by faith is not looking around for every single sign that will pin point the second coming, including the biggest sign that most believers 'look' for-the antichrist.

This clarified things for me quite a bit…
You are 100% correct in what you are saying here. A Christian should not spend their time seeking signs of the “End Times” as they should be ready to go at any time:

Mat 25:1-13 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

There was a time when I believed in Futurism myself, and the exact timeline that it provided was one of the warning signs to me that it was the wrong school of interpretation. I have posted similar ideas many times over the years, you just stated it a bit differently, and I didn’t catch what you meant. One of the reasons I feel that people accept Futurism so readily is because they want a list of warning signs to make sure they are being good Christians in the last 3 years before the return of Christ, rather then living that way everyday. In historicism there is no 7 year tribulation, and Christ could return at any moment with no sign at all. That is one of the reasons, as I stated above, that many Christians have a hard time accepting that type of interpretation.

You are also correct that it is not good for a Christian to spend too much time speculating on the darker things in the Bible. That can happen, and sometimes I have to watch this myself as I spend a good deal of time researching some of the more obscure and darker subjects.

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah
You and I might not 'see' it in our minds as admiration but how about how God views it. OK dumb example time: I don't care much about the business of let's say, Brittney Spears, but if I were to continually search into her personal affairs, it might certainly appear that I admire her, which I don't.

As long as you don’t make something you are studying into a god, then it should not be a problem. People make all kind of things into gods without ever realizing it. The biggest one that I see most people today having issues with is making themselves into their own god (selfishness). I even see this with other Christians, and its part of the reason that I stated above that I feel the great deception will involve wrongful teaching that supports a self-centric lifestyle with an exact timeline of when to start behaving. Does the average American Christian spend most of their time doing the things to build treasure in heaven, as you stated, or more of their time piling up treasure in this earth? The Beast, the Mark, and the Great Deception are all related directly back to this. It’s the same way that many ancient people wondered after the opulence of Rome, or Greece, because citizenship in those societies provided a worldly lifestyle that satisfied their selfish lusts.

I am not sure if I am explaining this well or not, sorry.

Originally posted by QBSneak000
I fully understand what you're saying I just feel that discussing him in detail isn't going to make me less close to God. In fact, I believe God would want us to know, study and learn as much as we can about satan. I see that you are a pretty faith driven person so you also would agree that in the end its going to be a battle between good and evil. To know evil is to conquer evil and as long as we remain faithful then thats all that matters. I do see your point with people becoming fascinated with the subject or seduced by it but truly thats what its all about isn't it? a test? to see who can get past the temptation, to see who is truly worthy not to mention that as long as those people who have sinned in the eyes of God repent and accept the J man as their true savior then they shall be forgiven.....at least thats what I understand from the bible.

-just to also note, im not a particularly religious person. I do believe in a higher power BUT I don't believe in organized religion in any form. After all man is fallible so why would I put any trust into what he has written. I believe my relationship with God is between me and him/her and no man shall be an intermediary ie:priest for me.

Oh yes I agree, it is a battle now. Because the beginning of the end came when Yahshua resurrected, or even before. Nevertheless, we are well into the 'end'. The closer we get to the victory line, the harder the enemy presses. For he knows his time is short.

Yes faithful, but what and who are we faithful to? Sometimes it can be a good thing to have a reality check on that thought. God allows us to be tested, yes. And I have no problem with that and not that it would matter if I did, He's the one in charge, He's God. And He is true and faithful always, where we aren't. God say's He's chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. And the things we deem important or the things highly esteemed by men, is an abomination unto God. Those are serious words to reflect upon. We deem so many things in this world as not only important, but detrimental! Education is a big one.

Yes, we have forgiveness, everyone does. God is no respector of persons either. But rebellion or the act of rebelling against Him isn't a good thing at all. We don't test God. Or provoke Him to jealousy. How might you feel if your 'lover'/wife/husband etc, were consistantly looking after other men/women? Wouldn't you think 'hello'?? I'm over here!? Maybe that's another one of my dumb examples lol, but do you get my drift?

You very much appear, by your words anyway, that you are 'on the right track'. The words spoken in the bible, were by men yes, but they were bathed in the Holy Spirit. Meaning it was actually the Words of the Holy Spirit spoken through men chosen by God. So you can doubt if you so wish, but look closer at 'who' you are doubting. If you will listen, you will hear the Shepherds voice, and that goes for anyone out here today too. So it wasn't just men who saw and heard and wrote about our Messiah, they were/are the witnesses to our Messiah and all that took place, so their words never pass away. Where as men's words without the Holy Spirit, do pass away or come to naught.

Great post, thank you for commenting here

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

 

I think Yeshua wants us to use our discernment and do our best to unravel the prophecies. First of all he wouldn't have given them if we weren't to ponder them. Secondly there might not be a pretib rapture so it would be wise to know all you can about what might be up.

A little precedence can be taken from...
2 Corinthians 2:10-11
"I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes."

I suppose what you mean is that we shouldn't take such a morbid fascination in it that we stop spending time helping others and worshiping God. But I think we should educate ourselves and we should be aware in my opinion.

Oh Gosh BW, I know what you're trying to say but the words "unravel the prophesies" aren't choice at all. We aren't to unravel the prophesies, we are to drink it in, read it, accept it as truth and know that the victory is there. He( Yahshua) already overcame the world...He say's the prince of this world cometh and has nothing in me. We utilize every word He spoke as our discernement. I posted this somewhere else: We don't study the counterfit to undetstand the real, we study the real to understand what is counterfit. I think that's where I myself have gone badly wrong in the past and where I see believers such as myself make the same mistake.

I cannot confirm a rapture, maybe that's not my portion?? I just know it's a new teaching, very new, yet it is warned several places in the scripture to look out or beware of false teachings. Those that don't line up with the word. I look at it this way, if He takes me today or tomorrow, will I be prepared?

We are the voice of the bride, or are 'suppose' to be. But if that voice is overtaken by the babylon chaos, then who can hear her crying out anymore? She goes un heard, decapitated. We are to prepare for our groom as a bride would actually prepare for her wedding day to her soon to be husband, we are bethroed to Him now by our acceptance of Him as our King. So doesn't it make sense to keep our focus on Him as much as possible??

Excellent verse! We know the schemes of the enemy don't we? We can educate ourselves until we are blue in the face, but the only thing that outwits the enemy is our constant unwavering faith in Yahshua. He is our Rock, for which our house is built upon and so no amount of false doctrine should ever knock us off, we might fall down, but only to purge us and make us white ( as spoken of through Daniel) But we should never fall off, we are grounded into the vine and the root holds us in tact.

So no amount of enemy schemes should even gain our attention at all, really. All I'm saying is that it's unwise to set our sight on what is seemingly being played out in this world and wise enough to point out the schemes when we catch them and then move along, don't stay and gaze if you know what I mean

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

reply to post by defcon5


I'm thinking that we're on the same page. You just write better than me
Or should I say you convey the point you're making better, than me. I think honestly, if we don't get offended, this particular discussion can be quite helpful, for all believers, and non believers too

I don't want to point fingers here, that's not my goal or aim. Otherwise, I'd need to point to me first. I have found myself doing exactly what you've stated, "looking for the end-time signs" But this is what Yahshua has to say about that:
(Matthew 12:39)
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

And you're right, how many of us are really building up our treasures in heaven? I already feel guilty just thinking about it. So I know, I need to change my focus. I don't want to mourn when he comes because I feel so guilty and unprepared because I was so fixated on the anti christ, I lost focus of THE Messiah. He say's heaven and earth will pass away, but His words will never pass away. So if I'm staring at a system that is sure to pass, I might pass right along with it. I'm using myself as the example, but I've seen and read others being carried off with these worldly wonders and even feasting with those who don't believe in Yahshua, that's where it get's real alarming to me.

I don't know about the 7 year tribulation. Yahshua say's no one knows the day or hour. So if I'm waiting for seven years to begin and end, then obviously I'm ignoring what He clearly says. Yahshua states this:

(John 16:33)
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. He says in the world. So while we are here, however long or short it may be, as a believer/follower of Yahshua, we will have tribulation. I like to read and study more of what He say's rather than what He doesn't say. And I believe strongly that we should remind others of this too, whether it is distasteful or not. Wouldn't you agree?

I agree, awareness is a good thing for everyone and that no one should be offended by this post or any other like it. That is why I love this forum, because you can come here, state how you feel and get feedback (positive or negative) and possibly come out learning from someone else's thoughts and ideas. I may not be a follower of any set religion but I do believe in God and Jesus. When I spoke of man being fallible and how I could not trust anything that was written its because for me I see that the bible and such other works as good as their message is has been tainted by man. Over the last 2000 years the bible, for example, has been translated and rewritten how many times? quite a few I can assure you. I suppose, for me, that the true message of God and Jesus and the stories in the bible have been misrepresented and lost on man due to his vanity and belief of supremacy over the less fortunate ie:The Catholic church circa the middle ages. As human kind we tend to destroy what we don't understand because we fear it. Maybe Im just rambling on now what it comes down to is that I havent lost faith in God, Jesus or what they represent, I have lost faith in human kind due to our ignorance, the injustice and suffering we do to each other throughout history all in the mane of our religion and how different people have interpreted the holy text for their own agenda.

reply to post by Elisha4Yah


I understand where you are coming from. I do...

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
(1 Corinthians 13)

We have different gifts and some can handle eschatology better than others. It's interesting to me but frankly I haven't spent much time on it. When I first came to this thread I was hoping to learn because I really haven't "wondered after the Beast" that much.

We are all just children in the eyes of the almighty, wanting to learn as much as we can. Like sponges soaking up the water of knowledge. We cannot help our curiosity.

Originally posted by QBSneak000
When I spoke of man being fallible and how I could not trust anything that was written its because for me I see that the bible and such other works as good as their message is has been tainted by man. Over the last 2000 years the bible, for example, has been translated and rewritten how many times?

Now here is an area I wonder after quite a bit. The scriptures have survived remarkably intact.

The Great Isaiah Scroll has been carbon dated to a range of 335 BC-107 BC.. It is nearly identical to the text we have today. So what's all this editing? Sure there have translation issues but it is remarkably intact.

It contains prophecies about Yeshua (Jesus) that came true centuries later. Verifying the supernatural foreknowledge of the future and that Yeshua was the messiah.

Ok two versions at least 1000 years apart. Prophecy of the coming Messiah, Yeshua

Below is the King James Version of Isaiah 53:1-3.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Below is the same passage from the Great Isaiah Scroll.

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor he hath comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire ourselves.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men and man of sorrows, and he knows grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; and despised him, and we esteemed him not.

Source


Now how severe are those differences? For 1000s of years and translations?
Still predicting the life of Christ clearly millenia before his birth.




[edit on 3/6/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by QBSneak000
I agree, awareness is a good thing for everyone and that no one should be offended by this post or any other like it. That is why I love this forum, because you can come here, state how you feel and get feedback (positive or negative) and possibly come out learning from someone else's thoughts and ideas. I may not be a follower of any set religion but I do believe in God and Jesus. When I spoke of man being fallible and how I could not trust anything that was written its because for me I see that the bible and such other works as good as their message is has been tainted by man. Over the last 2000 years the bible, for example, has been translated and rewritten how many times? quite a few I can assure you. I suppose, for me, that the true message of God and Jesus and the stories in the bible have been misrepresented and lost on man due to his vanity and belief of supremacy over the less fortunate ie:The Catholic church circa the middle ages. As human kind we tend to destroy what we don't understand because we fear it. Maybe Im just rambling on now

what it comes down to is that I havent lost faith in God, Jesus or what they represent, I have lost faith in human kind due to our ignorance, the injustice and suffering we do to each other throughout history all in the mane of our religion and how different people have interpreted the holy text for their own agenda.

How do I say this....I understand all of what you are saying. I guess because I've gone there or go there myself? There was a time, not too long ago actually, when I had all of my ten or so bibles stacked up next to the trash can. Was I getting ready to toss out my belief? No. I was angry at 'man' for coming along and mistranslating Yahweh's word. But here's the clentcher* not one man or thing in this world can 'prevent' God's word from overcoming any misinterpretation, mistranslation, or added two cents from the catholic church or any other....What I'm trying to say here is that, don't let man get in the way of you and your Messiah, don't fall away from your salvation/Saviour because you are told & believe there are just too many mistakes in His word. Don't you think that that would be the enemies biggest plan-to lie and make His followers(us) think that the word is infallible? There truly is only one way to exalt oneself above everything that is called God and that is to close the book and walk away and forsake the Holy Covenant (His words in His blood) I think I understand now what Paul meant when he was beseeching us to not be shaken or troubled, for we are called by their gospel to obtaining the glory ofour Lord Jesus Christ (2 Thess 2:14) and (15) stand fast or hold on tight! Don't let go no matter what anyone says ""out here"

It literally is bringing tears to my eyes, to my soul even, to realize that people are falling away today because of all the debunking of the Holy Word. I guess that explains the piercing of the hands and feet of the body of Messiah. Instead of us defending His word and truth, we fall captive to the lies and rumours.

(thank you for listening or reading and taking time to think and respond here)
I've rambled a bit too...so let me end with these words:

(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

 

I understand where you are coming from. I do...

"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."
(1 Corinthians 13)

We have different gifts and some can handle eschatology better than others. It's interesting to me but frankly I haven't spent much time on it. When I first came to this thread I was hoping to learn because I really haven't "wondered after the Beast" that much.

I love that verse, thank you for recalling it to my heart and posting it here

We do have different gifts and some are the hands and some are the feet and He say's for Lo, I have eyes that go to and fro in the earth. But what is truly any gift at all without the love source? I can't say that this world does not affect or test my love for my fellow man, it does, daily. But we cannot let coldness of heart overcome us. And fear, is one of those emotions that can cause our love to grow cold. He did say that in the latter days, the love of many would wax cold.

I hope you can learn something and teach me/us a few things along the way. I'm again not pointing fingers, I'm pointing out something I noticed in the many threads posted in the "Conspiracies in Religion" area. It just hit me, stunned me in fact, that's what gave me the courage to even make this topic. I actually recognized a trend so to speak, of those that call themselves "Christians" or believers.