The government lied to us...and they should have

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


Here's a page on the subject. It's also been discussed quite a bit on different threads here on ATS.

www.angelfire.com...

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

Here's a page on the subject. It's also been discussed quite a bit on different threads here on ATS.

www.angelfire.com...

I am off to check it out...be back in a bit

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

with all due respect to you ...johnny... i am 55 and have heard for decades, that governments use the excuse of a "fearful population" when they don't really want too many people to know what the hell they are doing. i'm an adult and the vast majority of people are as well. we would be able to "handle" it alot better, then what is being assumed. what i can't handle is not being told the truth. when people do not trust their government, that is truly when the "panic" sets in. the excuses no longer hold water with me, it has simply become a control issue and makes me damn mad, not fearful. so everybody should grow up, and quit being scared of your own shadow. if there are other species from other worlds, embrace it, reason it out, and learn to understand and live with it. if "they" wanted to destroy us, they would have done so, along time ago.

reply to post by jimmyx
I will address your last point first. The idea that “aliens” are here…it’s absurd.
My point, from the beginning, was the panic didn’t happen. It MAY have, it MAY NOT have. The way they went about things…we didn’t find out.
They made the right call.
People think we have this right to know everything…sorry, but we don’t.
I don’t know this has anything to do with being “scared of your own shadow.” We elect these people not only to represent us, but we also elect them because we trust their judgment, their wisdom. We are saying, “Here are the keys to our safety.” It is the job of the federal government to “provide for the common defense.” That does not only refer to other nations, it also may at times mean protecting us from ourselves. You may be a parent, so you would know exactly what I mean. (I am not suggesting the Federal Government should act solely like they are parents to us)
You also think the vast majority of people are adults…by and large society is not filled with adults. Flip on the TV and you will see the “vast majority” of things out there are geared towards an 8th grade or lower education, but they are viewed by adults. No, most people are not adults.
If anything, what makes people scared of their own shadow…is the ridiculous rumors and countless conspiracies. Alex Jones and Michael Moore (I am not saying your are a fan if you are not) are nothing more than bloggers at their roots. Through selling snake oil to people, they have gotten followings and made INCREDIBLE amounts of money. But that is never looked at as reason for what they do. They are these altruist men who have nothing more than our best interests at heart…..it couldn’t be more laughable.
Watergate wasn’t able to be kept a secret and there were very few people involved. However, somehow, someway, people are so ready to believe there is this huge network of the elite who can covertly plan and perfectly execute all the evils in the world. It is not reasonable. If it wasn’t Bush, because he is this said idiot, then it was Cheney. If it wasn’t them, then it was a certain but unknown master at work…Like I said before, it is too convenient a way out. Like the child who, trying to escape blame, points to his classmate and quickly blames him for stealing something.
It’s people forcing blame where it doesn’t belong or fabricating ideas that fit an anti-government agenda. So, no, I don’t think many people are very adult about it or life in general at all. Age has no meaning.

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

news.bbc.co.uk...
I did finally get on the BBC and here is the article I saw about the hijackers.
Here is a quote,” He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.” (that’s towards the bottom under “mistaken identity” and they are talking about Abdulaziz Al Omari)
I will sort of give you this….it may be since he lost his passport someone used it and made it look like him. It could be a mistaken identity. However,I don’t know how much that changes things in the over all picture because… 1) that doesn’t means it wasn’t Arab terrorits on 9-11 2) the article has no direct quotes from him or any pictures. 3) these are second and third hand accounts from a journalist talking to another journalist. 4) it doesn’t mean it wasn’t terrorists at all who flew those planes on 9-11

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


I am not willing to accept any story without evidence. The evidence identifying the hijackers was obviously false, and the FBI has never corrected the falsity. So if the government is giving us false information, why should we believe them?

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

My point, from the beginning, was the panic didn’t happen. It MAY have, it MAY NOT have. The way they went about things…we didn’t find out.

They made the right call.

If the American people had known that terrorists shot down an airliner, 9/11 may have been prevented. So, they DID NOT make the right call. It makes no sense to avoid a little panic at the cost of thousands of American lives.

If you believe it is possible for evil forces to infiltrate, undermine, or take over the American government, then you must accept a policy of open government if you hope to avoid such possibilities. Evil is done in the darkness, in secret, and with lies. Truth and justice are the opponents of evil.

The government is NOT our parent, it is our employee.

reply to post by jackinthebox
“I am not suggesting the Federal Government should act solely like they are parents to us”
That is the rest of what I said, as it refers to parents. Stopping children from harming themselves or doing things which will end up harm themselves, is something a parent does. That is the total and end of the analogy…nothing further was meant or said.
While, yes, we employ the government through our votes and taxes, we do not employ them in the common sense of the word. We feed, again, through votes and taxes, an entity which is has several jobs to do for us. Providing for the Common Defense is foremost.

A third hand account is not proof the identities of the hijackers is false either. I don’t remember if it was you or f it was another person, who claimed the evidence in the 9-11 CT would win in court, but a third hand account with no interview and no picture to place next to it, holds no weight and would not even be heard in court. The level of reliability has to go both ways or else there is no fairness.
I will say this, in order show a level of honesty in my thinking. If it PROVEN those men who hijacked the planes on 9-11, were indeed NOT who they are said to be and it is PROVEN Al-Qaeda terrorists were not behind it…yes, your claims have a much much higher probability. But…it would say then, that EVERY phone call made from the planes as they were being hijacked…is false. That is a tough pill to swallow for anyone.

Another airliner was indeed NOT shot down after flight 800. 9-11 was an entirely new approach…a completely new tactic. It turned the cart over by way of that one sinister but yet spectacular attack. You cannot relate flight 800 to 9-11 anymore than you can relate a murder suicide in Dallas to Ted Bundy’s rampage across the country. There is a similarity in that people were killed in each, but that is where it ends. One is far more horrific and of an infinitely higher magnitude.
Not everything done in darkness or secret is evil and being open is the only cure. That’s like saying fires can only be stopped by water…no in fact they can be stopped many other ways…controlled burns stop them even better sometimes.

reply to post by jackinthebox


Google HTML version
PDF on ftc.gov

EMPIRICAL INDUSTRIAL ORGANIZATION ROUNDTABLE
Tuesday, September 11, 20011210:10 a.m.13Federal Trade Commission146th Street & Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.15Washington, D.C. 20580

Nice to know a 'roundtable' discussion about Industrial Organization of the Empire happened ELEVEN minutes after the collapse of the South Tower....

SCHEFFMAN: This is obviously a sad andinfuriating morning. I think we should go forward and do what we're going to do. The Agency is in contact with the
Government and we have been told to just go ahead and do our
normal duties. And if we get instructions to do something
else we will let you know immediately.

What? That is from the moderator to start the meeting. "The Agency is in contact with the Government..."? I recently found this document in the most fortuidous, but seemingly unconnected way. I could elaborate here, but don't want to derail this thread.

Still things are getting murky for those who go lurking.
DocMoreau

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_


If Flight 800 was shot down by terrorists and the government did nothing about it, then this government is responsible for 9/11. Their negligence already stretches the limits of one's imagination to accept that they were not more intimately involved than is claimed.

If a kid falls out of a tree and hits their head hard, does the parent try to avoid panic by not calling an ambulance? Furthermore, does that parent continue to let that child play out in the woods unsupervised?

If Flight 800 was shot down by terrorists, it was not only our right to know, it was our duty to be informed that we were at war. Or are you really trying to justify our country being attacked and at war, without the government telling the people until a "big enough" attack happened?

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

i agree with some of what you have to say..but T.V....when a show gets a 20 share, that is high, but that still only means 20 million out of a population of 300 million...hardly a majority, less the 10% of the people. and my signature down below pretty much describes how the world truly works. sorry if i sound cynical, but if you start with and follow that motto, one can find alot more truth then all the political sloganeering and flag waving that we are fed in todays media

I think the main problem is I want to know all the details and you don't. Sounds like a rude statement but it has no intentions of being so, This is avery important arguement in today's society. However I think it is wrong to deny the people of America the right to knowledge and understanding of the everyday workings of our govt. It is imperative the people be given all information possible during these times of uncertainty. If I want the knowledge, who are you to deny me those rights because you don't want to know.

I just found this phrase in a book by author Orson Scott Card, and thought it was particularly pertinent to this discussion:

"Treason only matters when it is committed by trusted men."

[edit on 2/18/0808 by jackinthebox]

Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

 

I think it is absurd the government denied it existed for so long…that IS an insult to the American people

Worse than an insult, it was an outright lie. They were hiding it from the American people, not the Soviets. Why hide it then? The Soviets knew it was there all along, and had a pretty good idea of what was going on there as well. I would venture to say that Putin knows more about what goes on at Area 51 than any American who has never worked there.



[edit on 2/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

The ordinary civilian has absolutely no need to know what sort of technological developments the military is working on. Part of what makes a piece of equipment effective, is that it's capabilities aren't known.
It takes much longer to develop a piece of equipment, than it does to develop countermeasures. The idea is to save the lives of military personnel, by giving them as many advantages as possible. If the enemy has already developed countermeasures by/before the time something's fielded, it puts servicemembers at greater risk. The public doesn't have the right to do that, just to satisfy their curiosity.

[edit on 19-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

reply to post by BlueRaja


I agree with the basic premise of your argument. I do not believe that the entire citizenry should be fully informed as to technological development, though there should certainly be civilian oversight by our elected representativesm, which I believe still is the case.

On the other hand, you failed to see the point of my statements. Why lie to the American public about what the enemy has already figured out? Furthermore, when they know we know they had it figured out. Lieing about the existence of Area 51 was just asenine. I'm not saying that had to come clean on everything they were doing there, but lieing about what is plainly obvious clearly shows the government's detachment from reality, and from the people whom they are supposed to represent.


[edit on 2/19/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by jackinthebox


The less that is known about a "Secret" facility, the better. If the enemy doesn't know what all is at Area 51, then that's a good thing. If the general population knew what all was there, how long do you think it'd take before our enemies did? The military still doesn't officially acknowledge Delta or ST6(or other SMU). That's all part of Military Deception/OPSEC/Info security. The reason certain facilities, units, equipment are able to operate successfully, is because they aren't common knowledge, nor are their TTPs(that's tactics, techniques, procedures), capabilities, etc.. known.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
The idea that 9-11 was an inside job is an insult.

9-11 WAS and inside job.

The invasion of Iraq was a planned agenda of G.W. Bush and those with him.

There were no WMD found in Iraq and our CIA and the President knew it because what weapons they did have came from us.

We are War Criminals in Iraq and elsewhere.

FEMA's response to Katrina was intentionally restrained. They wanted that city destroyed and the poor blacks pushed out. This Governent are Masters of having plans on their board that they can impliment when the opportunity presents itself.

I so utterly disagree with you that my heart felt response to your interview on ATS MIX cost me 500 pts, A T & C Violation and a warning. If my getting banned from ATS forever could go to make a statement of how offended I am by what you have posted and said, it would be worth it. Just goes to show you how the CIA undermines the truth about what they do; they have people like you out of no where to toss into the mix to muddy the water.

I also find it is interesting and suspicious that ATS MIX gave an interview to a new member. Are you some kind of "Plant"?

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

I equate your reasoning here to an adopted child that has had the truth kept fom them all thier lives.When the people he has presumed to be his parents die,leave him a letter stating he was adopted and his real parents were mass murders.The delmia is would it have been better to tell him years ago so he could cope with it,or take the secret to the grave.

reply to post by MajKarma

I thought this thread was over...
However, this is the sort of thing I mentioned before.
If someone disagrees with the conspiracy, they are either in on it or they are a plant or they are an idiot. It is impossible for someone to see the same thing and view it in another way.
There is no such thing as altruism.
From what I understand this is, for the most part, an open forum.
A conspiratorial mind does equate to enlightenment. A conspiratorial mind does not make a person a skeptic. Fears people are out to get you does not mean they are there.
Again, as I said before...weeks ago on this same thread...conspiracies are put together like constellations. A point here a point there...and all of the sudden you have Orion the Hunter standing in the sky, or...a conspiracy.
And thing I find the most entertaining in it all, is the people who promote the conspiracies. They make the conspiracies so BBBRRRROOOOAAAAADDDD that anything and everything fits into the plan. It all works out just perfect. It's hard to miss a putt when you make the hole a big as a city block.