"Multiple Victims Reported in Illinois Mall Shooting"

Originally posted by andy1033
How often is this stuff happening now. This is the problem with easy access to weapons, and surely anyone with any brain could see that. Guns kill, period, not the other way round.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

I am with you 110% .. GUNS KILL PEOPLE! ..

One time.. I was holding my own gun (your typical 22 rifle) and I heard this voice in my head it said "go to the mall.... kill...kill..kill.." and I was powerless to stop it! .. I swear its true.. so I told that gun, I says, NO way! I cannot kill innocent people.. I have this little thing called morals..

But did the gun care? .. Hells no. It just kept saying "Kill...kill..the mall... innocent people must die... must complete objective.. must muurrrrrdddeerrrr" .. So i locked the damn thing up in its safe, and every once in while I can hear it murmuring in the corner of the room "let me out.. must kill.. must satisfy blood lust" .. Which people at the mall where lucky I had good self control.. that gun almost made me murder innocent people!!!

Maybe to combat this.. we could take the free thinking brains out of the guns! Yes this would stop them from overpowering their lesser intelligent human owners!!

reply to post by LooseLipsSinkShips


On the contrary, it is you who have gone off on a tangent. You brought up Black women because they happen to be Black and the suspect happens to be Black. And so, in your mind, there must be a deeper relation between all concerned. And then you elevate your suspicions to say that the probability of a crime of passion occurred. No doubt because you have learned that Black men are violent towards Black women. Just one more on your "Most likely, probably, and many" list. All preconceived, imagined, and utterly irrelevant to the actual case.

So many times I've encountered comments such as yours here at ATS only to see even more people chime in on the same tune to promote yet more racial stereotypes. And all those people end up in agreement with each other as if they are relating FACTS to the case, when the only thing they have done was to offer their own incredibly limited viewpoints. Everyone's viewpoint is limited, but I think it is better when those viewpoints are informed with the facts of the case or topic at hand. Especially when those viewpoints are restricted to the author, and not bandied about as if it is common knowledge or universally true, as you have done. That more benefit to a discussion is to be had, than the irrelevant stuff of the type you've offered.

A black guy did this?
I am very surprised. Awwww...now people are going to stare at me on the train because of what this person did. Meh...

Originally posted by Souljah
I hate to say it, but guns don't kill people.

People kill people.

And as it looks like to me, America is still a wild wild west.

Guns can be bought on the way to your home.

In my opinion, this kind of violence is a part of American culture.

Only 100 years ago there used to be cowboys and outlaws.

Now there are guns and liquor stores.

So do you feel safer with a gun in your house?

Does a gun make you feel better then the rest?

I really do not understand this fascination with weapons, which kill people.

Why not collect stamps?

Or napkins?

Well Soljah ol' fierce opponent of the empire, who appears to want it to be here awfully quickly... (Sorry for the long salutation)

Once again, you come up on the short end of the straw.

It is still the land of the free here, (since you don't appear to be in charge) and it is a very cool thing about life in a free country. I collect stamps, and coins... Napkins hold very little interest for me as they might for you, as there is very little originality in napkins. I also have a number of weapons that I have collected over the years. It's kind of cool living where I can still do what I want to do without having to kowtow to bullies...

Or maybe because I, and a significant amount of millions of others in this country choose to "freely" collect and/or own firearms, we don't have to kowtow to bullies.

Either way... It's very cool to be able to not have to listen to you, just 'cause you said so.

Originally posted by C0le
But with that said, when I go there I carry regardless, I think the old saying of I'd rather be judged by 12, then carried by 6 applies here...

Ah yeah not me. I'm ineligible for a CC permit so I usually OC where allowed. Except in my car where no permit is required to conceal under Missouri law. Unfortunately state law only preempts local municipalities for permit holders. Here your right to stand your ground is void if you are engaged in the commission of a crime like carrying where prohibited or concealed without a permit.

Plus according to NRA stats, most self-defense incidents end with the draw and no shots fired. So there's usually gonna be at least one witness and chances are he'll be holding a grudge against you.

[edit on 3-2-2008 by apc]

Originally posted by Areal51
On the contrary, it is you who have gone off on a tangent. You brought up Black women because they happen to be Black and the suspect happens to be Black. And so, in your mind, there must be a deeper relation between all concerned. And then you elevate your suspicions to say that the probability of a crime of passion occurred. No doubt because you have learned that Black men are violent towards Black women.

I have to admit, that was some painful conjecturing on his part. Mentioning that you saw another black person at a crime scene as if it has relevance to the suspect comes off as very Jim Crowe.

reply to post by Areal51


First if I was fired upon and even if I were shot and others were around. If I were carrying a gun someone else might have a chance to use my weapon to kill or wound to other guy shooting at people. This would give possibly one other a chance to live if not myself.

Also if others are carrying guns the killer would be out numbered would he not? Meaning if the gun carriers see one person fall they all pull their weapons and take careful aim, someone is going to take him out leaving someone to live in the end.

Besides before I worry about being shot someday I would worry about dyeing in a car accident which by the way is more likely. But personally I do not worry about death as it is going to come someday no matter what. Why waste valuable living time worrying about something that you cannot stop. It will happen someday no matter what if it comes now I am ready I have lived a better life than many not as well as many others but I have lived and loved. I have seen my son and watched him grow some even; again this is more than some will ever get to do. I am happy with what I have done in my life so far I am happy with how my life is going and I love seeing my son every day. If I happen to die I’m not going to know that I am not seeing him any longer, he will hopefully remember me and know I loved him. He will lose me one day when I do not know I could die in my sleep tonight, but I would die happy with my life and that is what matters most.

To fear death is to fear life.

Raist

I just now got the chance to sit and read all the way through this thread. It is extremely sad that this happened and my heart goes out to all of the families.

This is something that has been a big topic of conversation at my house. That is because my husband installed the video surveillance system and burglar alarm at this particular store.

He said that the police have the video footage and should, unless the person was very good at concealing their features completely, have very detailed pictures of what the suspect looks like. He doesn't have any other details, just that the police have the surveillance video, but said that he plans to see if anyone at the monitoring station is able to give him any other information, though he doesn't know if that will be possible right now.

All of the girls that worked there are truly nice, and he really enjoyed that job because everyone was so friendly and they all had fun chatting. I remember him talking about it at the time of the install because so many jobs are boring or people keep to themselves and the employees at this store didn't do that.

Again, my condolences go out to the families of the victims.

Take care,
Cindi

reply to post by sigung86

A culture, that worships weapons and collects them, is bound to have higher numbers of murders by firearms. Not everybody is normal and some people do have a short fuse, especially if their medication has just run out. As I can see, there is an entire nation of semi-drugged gun-owners, who do not like that anybody walks on their lawn - but sometimes they do go to the mall and shoot people with semi-automatic weapons.

Sounds like land of the Free to me!

Times of Cowboys and Indians are far from over...

Our culture does not praise weapons. Our culture praises freedom. Our keeping weapons ensures our ability to protect freedom. Protect it from both criminals and government and especially when they're one in the same.

Most gun owners are not semi-drugged (not while carrying anyway), do not shoot people that walk on their lawn, and go through life without ever having to draw their gun on anybody. I get you're trying to dramatize the issue, but you're just plain wrong.

As far as collectors, are you seriously criticizing them? I think people who collect stamps are weird. Everyone has a hobby.

Areal51, cole and others did a good job at responding to most of your questions, and I really dont have much more to add. You keep stating what if the gunman takes you out before you get the chance to fire. I dont know about the other people that carry, but with me when I am out and about I remain on alert at all times. My wife is always giving me crap, when going out to eat I have to sit in a spot where I can see the whole restraunt. Same goes if we are at a mall food court or something, we sit where I can see all around me. It probably is a little paranoid, but as I stated in my previous post I refuse to be a statistic or let me family be a statistic to a violent crime. As for the other questions about snipers, etc, that is a different circumstance, and not one that has happened as often as some crazy person storming into a public place and opening fire. In the case of a sniper, carrying a weapon wouldnt help unless you could get to where the person was and take him out. However in keeping alert you would have a better chance of survival unless the madman put his eyes on you as his first victim. The students at VT would have been better off carrying, in one of those classrooms there would have been a responsible person that would have been aware of some crazy person storming into a room, or ready themselves after hearing gunfire.

As stated I am not willing to rely on someone else to take care of me, I dont place enough faith in government for that.

Yet another case of somebody having access to a gun and using that for his own terrible designs.

If that bloke didn't have a gun, then nobody would have been shot.

Simple.

Now for all you pro-gun nuts, imagine if a guy went crazy in his car and ran ten people over in the street, you would say 'if that guy didn't have a car, then those people would still be alive' - true.

Then I say if that nutter didn't have a gun then those victims would still be alive.

You may try and counter that by saying 'well, a concealed gun license would have enabled somebody else to shoot the original shooter' , but then you've got a LARGE number of potential nutters carrying guns.

C'mon America isn't exactly regarded as the sanest of places in the world is it?

I mean what? That's like finding a shark in your public swimming pool and releasing a bigger shark into the pool to get rid of the first one and then wondering why the second (friendly) shark is eating all your kids.

In my opinion, a society should not be allowed to carry ANY guns, including the police, but America has already shot itself in the foot with that one eh?

Guns kill, people kill, guns and people = bad idea.

Ugh! Update to my post a few above this.

My husband got all excited thinking that was the store that he had installed the video surveillance system and burglar alarm in and that his systems might be of help to the police...until he called the monitoring station to see what details he could get from them and found out that it was one close, but not that particular store. He got home last night and when I asked what details he could get he sheepishly told me that he was mistaken on the location.

They still haven't found the guy who did this and lots of us in this area have been following the story closely and hoping to hear the good news that he was captured soon.

Take care,
Cindi

Originally posted by mr-lizard
You may try and counter that by saying 'well, a concealed gun license would have enabled somebody else to shoot the original shooter' , but then you've got a LARGE number of potential nutters carrying guns.

this is faulty logic, you are automatically assuming anyone with a gun is a potential nutter.

I mean what? That's like finding a shark in your public swimming pool and releasing a bigger shark into the pool to get rid of the first one and then wondering why the second (friendly) shark is eating all your kids.

again faulty. an honest citizen using a firearm to stop a raving lunatic does not himself become the shark. he is still the sane law abiding gun carrying citizen he was before the shark opened fire in the mall.

and speaking of disarming the population how is gun crime in UK?

Labour has been accused of losing control of gun crime as new figures show a sharp rise in armed robberies.

Guns were used in 4,120 robberies last year - a 10% jump - including a 9% rise to 1,439 in the number of street robberies where guns were used.

There was also a rapid and unexplained increase in the number of times householders were confronted in their own homes by armed criminals. Residential firearms robberies show a 46% leap, a record 645 cases in England and Wales - up 204 on the previous year and four times the level recorded in 2000-01.

www.breitbart.com...

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.
The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.
.....

But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.

news.bbc.co.uk...

its been proven time and time again that more guns equals less crime.
when was the last time there was a mass shooting in a police station, or a NRA meeting, or a shooting range?
anytime they ban guns crime goes up. ask a criminal if they would rather have a helpless victim or a armed victim.





[edit on 5-2-2008 by turbokid]

reply to post by apc


Look who your talking to mate... a guy who has never been to America...

Hey, Souljah...

Why don't you tell everyone what country YOU are from.