The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

It's clear he knew how to operate the aircraft and what language do they speak? Perhaps his only deficiency was in oral english.

reply to post by OrionStars


There are millions of foreigners in this country attending schools that are taught in English.. many are poor at English. Many got BETTER grades than me in college!

Spoken comprehension and reading comprehension are two different skills.

I find it almost impossible they could be that poor at reading English.. yet be able to get a commercial certificate.. you gotta read to do that.

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by Pilgrum

 

You expect someone unable to understand English to survive in a school using the English language? How would he know how to operate any flight simulator, if he could not understand the language of the instructor? How could anyone pass the mandatory written test in English without being able to read and write English?

Even sign language is done in the native language of any deaf individual.

Sorry, mods, for the excessive quoting, but it is necessary...

Orion, you keep on about how they have to 'operate' a simulator...they were 'students', who paid money to be taught by professionals who 'operated' the simulator!!!

I am sure, after the session was over, the real pilots got together and laughed at how stupid and incompetent those a##holes were...but they got paid, the owner of the facility that housed the sims got paid...heck, maybe it was somewhere in Europe, or the Far East, or even...(gasp) the Middle East where these terrorists bought time in a sim...

Point here is...flags should have gone up, well they did, in fact for one guy...Moussani...but a few hours, in a Sim, to get used to where things are IN THAT AIRPLANE is incredibly useful for their purposes that day...this, combined with the Flight Manuals to study as well...

reply to post by weedwhacker
It's not like these guys were planning a distinguished international career with a comfortable retirement at the end of it. Then again perhaps they had no idea of their purpose until the order was received but I tend to believe they knew exactly what was coming up.

I'll try not to toot my own horn too much here, but I have a story...

In 1992 I was living in Phoenix. At that time I was on the DC-10 with a major airline. I went to checkout, for rent, a Cessna 210 (you see, it's not like renting a car...an instructor will fly with you, regardless of your hours or years of experience, before you can rent an airplane).

Anyway, I remember the 'kid' (Hey! I was an instructor once too...!) commented on my light tough on the control wheel. He said he had never seen anyone fly a C210 with two fingers before.

I told him about the DC-10, though it is a wide-body, and a heavy jet, it still is very light to the touch. See, some jetliners have cables that are rigged to hydraulic actuators that actually move the control surfaces. More modern Airbuses use the 'fly-by-wire' concept...electrical signals from the control column are electronically sent to the hydraulic actuators...but in any case, there has to be an 'artificial feel' built in, especially in the elevators.

(the B777 still has cables from the Flight Deck to the control surface actuators..except for the throttles. They are 'fly-by-wire'.)

So, flying a jet, really ain't that difficult. It is the training, the study, the landings in bad weather...many other factors...THAT is what separates a Professional from an amateur.

What is it about not being unable to speak the language in which something is taught, results in no one can pass the courses being taught under those circumstances, don't some people appear to comprehend?

Or is just plain deliberately choosing to ignore because it once again refutes the "official" reports?

reply to post by OrionStars


Orion, it is a federal regulation that anyone who wishes to hold an FAA certificate must be "able to read and speak the English language".

Problem is, it is very vague, as to the criteria of 'reading and speaking' the English language.

Long time ago, I was a young Flight Instructor, and we had some Japanese students come in to get a Multi-Engine rating. Their English was very poor...in fact, I instructed a guy who had a translator in the rear seat of the Beech 95 TravelAire that we taught in, just in case I needed to get a point across.

Here's the thing...this was in 1977...and these guys were destined to become JAL pilots eventually...they came to the USA for the ratings, because it was much cheaper than taking lessons in Japan, with the intent of going back to their homeland and seeking jobs there. We KNEW they would not be flying in the US, they told us as much. So, I did my best, my student passed his checkride, we bowed and he went back to Japan...I am sure his fresh FAA certificate carried a lot of weight in his homeland.

Actually...he was a good pilot. The only difficulty came, occasionally, in the language barrier. I made sure that most of our engine-out work was done at higher altitudes, at first, until I was confident in his abilities. Plus, there I could make sure that we understood better, before moving on to engine emergencies as lower altitudes...

Perhaps, and this is a big IF...these Arabs were viewed as rich suckers, willing to pay, but not expected to fly anywhere near the USA, but back in THEIR homeland...it was a common mindset, pre-9/11. The instructors involved are, IMO, backpedalling fast to cover their a**es.

reply to post by weedwhacker


like I said.. reading comprehension and writing comprehension are two different things. The FAA wants good english skills so that pilots can talk to ATC. I know zero Russian, but sit me down in a MIG and I'm sure I could fly it... Planes are flown mainly by numbers and I'm sure even Saudi's can READ numbers.. They don't have to be able to pronounce them..

You are placing way too much emphasis on speaking abilities.. Did you read what I said about students at College???

Electrical Engineering is a lot tougher to understand than flying planes... yet people that barely speak English get an A in the course. They barely can articulate their questions to the instructor. I know this first hand.

I'm not debating wether the official reports are right or wrong. Merely if SPOKEN language skills are important for what the Hijacker's allegedly did.

How would anyone, not speaking the language be able to understand the spoken instructions and/or written words of a written test, be able to receive a certified pilot's license from the FAA? I placed in bold the FAA refused to give licenses to anyone no proficient English comprehension - spoken and written.

If someone cannot speak English, how would they know the purpose of each instrument and control on the panel of even a flight simulator?

The alleged hijackers had trouble with a Cessna, because they could not understand the instructor on how to operate the controls or read the panel. The written test was a failure.

Trial and error is hardly the way to fly a Cessna already in the air, much less a commercial jetliner after someone else proficient has managed to get it off the ground and into the air.

If my understanding is correct, the FAA did give at least one of the Hijacker's a commercial certificate. This refutes your statement. Pilots from all over the world fly planes. Guess what, they don't reprogram the cockpits to their native language.

I've explained this several times now if you dont' wish to acknowledge my argument then fine. I'm not going to repeat myself. read my above posts


Pilots dont fly a plane by speaking to it!!!

Speaking English has no correlation as to how well u fly a plane!!!

Originally posted by shug7272
reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar

 

If highjacking a plane with little to no piloting experience and flying it into a target were so easy, why has it not been done (save 911) in the century or so of manned flight? Its seems like a GREAT plan and it instills terror in more than one way. It apparently is so easy you can even do it over some of the most heavily defended air space in the world without so much of a threat from the military...with planes in the air for over an hour and previous knowledge that said terrorists meant to do just this.... WOW.. Good thing it took terrorists nearly 100 years to figure out how easy this was to pull off.

And if your gonna tell me "well it wasnt easy"... they sure made it look easy.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by shug7272]

It looked easy on the surface but when you break it down from beginning to end, it took years to pull off and a lot of support personnel, money, etc..

9/11 didn't happen because of a few unhappy muslim extremists. It happened because of 1000's of unhappy, suicidal, well funded muslim extremists.

The thread title is probably accurate but it's obvious it doesn't apply to these suspects as they were actually trained for the purpose.

a language question : are boeing flight manuals availiable in arabic ?

Originally posted by OrionStars
An airplane wing is not a bird wing. Therefore, exact comparisons to birds and airplanes, in aerodynamics, will be in error. When Daniel Bernoulli
(1700 - 1782) discovered his principle, there were no airplanes.

Various people, throughout history and without complete understanding in the physics of aerodynamics, have been interpreting and misapplying his principle in theoretical physics, particularly in the principles of aerodynamics of airplanes. That normally applied/applies to laypersons, plus, students unable to complete their education in physics, for lack of effectively understanding theoretical physics and quantum mechanics.

Instead of just telling people they're wrong and that many, many physics professors are wrong in their application of Bernoulli's principle, you really need to prove it. The above statement is so outrageous that it cannot stand as written without PROOF. Since you are saying you know all these people throughout history are wrong but you have the correct knowledge, provide that knowledge here.

PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS or remove the above statement from this thread.

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
a language question : are boeing flight manuals availiable in arabic ?

It's claimed one was found:

Marwan Alshehhi’s rental car is discovered at Boston’s Logan Airport containing an Arabic language flight manual, a pass giving access to restricted areas at the airport, documents containing a name on the passenger list of one of the flights, and the names of other suspects. The name of the flight school where Atta and Alshehhi studied, Huffman Aviation, is also found in the car. [Los Angeles Times, 9/13/2001]

I don't see why not as they deliver these aircraft to many countries for domestic use.

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by Pilgrum

 

You expect someone unable to understand English to survive in a school using the English language? How would he know how to operate any flight simulator, if he could not understand the language of the instructor? How could anyone pass the mandatory written test in English without being able to read and write English?

Even sign language is done in the native language of any deaf individual.

I see non-english speaking people survive doing everything every day including driving, shopping, building, telemarketing, computer repair, sales, etc... Understanding a language is different then speaking it.

Originally posted by Jeff Riff
reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar

 

You are so far off base. Anybody in the truth movement here trying to push a far left political agenda? i think you will hear a resounding "NO." I think that we are honsetly trying to figure out why there are so many anomolies that took place that day, and why there are TRUTHS being hidden from us. I could give a crap about the left or the right. I do give a crap about this country and the people that live in it as honest citizens. The death of 3000 innocent people is something that should have been investigated.

Money spent investigating Clinton and Lewinsky.... Take a look
www.cnn.com...

Can anyone show me how much they spent on 9-11? Its hard to find a reputable source, but from what I have seen its far less. Does this make sense to you?

It not about left and right, it is about what was done wrong to Americans

Jeff you say it's not aout left/right but in the VERY SAME post you put up a link about:
"Money spent investigating Clinton and Lewinsky"

if that doesn't scream partisan, I don't know what does.

You would have been more credible if you had left that out as a comparable event.

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by Pilgrum

 

Two people left out the fact they have not a clue concerning Bernoulli's Principle (aerodynamics of aviary (bird) construction in flight not airplane construction in flight).

Bernoulli's theorem/principal was developed totally independant of any ideas concerning flight. Bernoulli was studying fluid dynamics. It was determined later, by others, that the effect Bernoulli identified and proved mathematically, was what caused an airfoil to generate lift.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.



[edit on 1/17/2008 by darkbluesky]

reply to post by gormly


I am simply using it as a reference point into the the insanity that was spent investigating a sexual incident as compared to the murder of 3000 people on American soil. If the government is willing to spend that much money on a sexual encounter, they should be willing to fork over much more to investigate 9-11. Political spending is going to be viewed as left or right, whatever, its the nature of politics.

I see the point you are making, but I am not using the example to claim that the political right cares more about the Clinton investigation than they do about investigating 9-11. Although that argument can me made, that is not what I am trying to do here.

It was exceptionally clear "Hani Hanjour" could not speak English nor understand English well enough to stay in flight school. All the twisting until doomsday is not going to change that, according to what has been reported from various flight instructors of who? Jewish? Arabic?

Both Semitic languages can sound very similar when spoken. Of course, those not familiar with both languages would have no way of knowing that. Some people simply buy at face value "official" reports. Then spent all their time spinning the wheels of their brains vainly attempting to turn logic into illogic and illogic into logic.