Russia Completes New Experimental "Diesel-Nuclear" Submarine

Russia Completes New Experimental "Diesel-Nuclear" Submarine




A new experimental submarine, built in secret, has been completed in Russia, Russia's corporate-owned military news agency Interfax- AVN website (in English) reported on 14 December from Severodvinsk.

The Russian-language version of the report adds that the new sub "is designed to test unique technology in the form of a nuclear reactor installed aboard a diesel submarine as its auxiliary propulsion system".

The B-90 Sarov diesel submarine was floated on 14 December, Sevmashpredpriyatiye spokesman Mikhail Starozhilov told Interfax- AVN.

"The pilot diesel submarine is a multipurpose test vessel, which will be used to test newly developed and modernized types of arms and military equipment, the spokesman said. This submarine has a long life span and can be modernized many times over," AVN notes.
www.industrywatch.com...

finally some good news , with increasingly threatening imperialist american war mongering and aggression acrosss the world , it becomes necessary for test new weapons ...

using a combo of SSK with a nuke reactor , it is cheaper to develop such sub that combines the capability of silence of SSK with endurance of SSN
at much cheaper costs .... thereby one of the best ideas ever

also SSK's are the most silent subs in the world

Combined nuclear and conventional propulsion is not entirely new to the Russian Navy. I am fairly sure the Kirov nuclear cruisers also had an auxiliary diesel plant.

It's interesting, although I am not sure what advantage the system provides.

Wow that should make a total of 10 new subs, Russia has created scince 1991, that even beets the U.S.

[edit on 18-12-2007 by Lambo Rider]

Originally posted by xmotex
Combined nuclear and conventional propulsion is not entirely new to the Russian Navy. I am fairly sure the Kirov nuclear cruisers also had an auxiliary diesel plant.

It's interesting, although I am not sure what advantage the system provides.

but the difference in this sub is that it uses nuclear power as auxiliary source , i.e. for AIP purpose

It's interesting, although I am not sure what advantage the system provides.

most modern SSK's use fuel cell for AIP propulsion , instead of fuel cell, it uses nuke reactor for AIP , thereby giving unlimited endurance , unlike normal SSK's which have limited endurance

There was a thread discussing this before - i do beleieve the concept *could* use something similar to the nuclear reactor from the satelites - there small enough at around 20 tons shielded

It seems (to me, at least) that while this concept might have some niche uses, it's a 'worst of both worlds' situation. You have all of the mechanical complexity of a diesel plant, and all (or at least some) of the volume requirement for fuel. On top of that, you have the complexity of a submarine nuclear plant. That's two sets of machinery and one set of fuel tanks taking up hull space where most boats have only one machinery set (and possibly fuel bunkers). That's going to lead to either a larger hull to get the same capabilities (which brings with it complications in fabrication, escalation in cost, and loss of handling characteristics) or a reduction in capability (which has obvious consequences).

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer
It seems (to me, at least) that while this concept might have some niche uses, it's a 'worst of both worlds' situation. You have all of the mechanical complexity of a diesel plant, and all (or at least some) of the volume requirement for fuel. On top of that, you have the complexity of a submarine nuclear plant. That's two sets of machinery and one set of fuel tanks taking up hull space where most boats have only one machinery set (and possibly fuel bunkers). That's going to lead to either a larger hull to get the same capabilities (which brings with it complications in fabrication, escalation in cost, and loss of handling characteristics) or a reduction in capability (which has obvious consequences).

Absolutely agree with you on this, I remember me an Harlequin argueing our cases regarding this type of boat in a previous thread, as you stated it will end up being a boat that is to complex, very expensive to maintain with less capability than either a pure nuke or diesel boat can provide.

I am not entirely sure I see the benefits, it would be more complex and costly.

Originally posted by manson_322
finally some good news , with increasingly threatening imperialist american war mongering and aggression acrosss the world , it becomes necessary for test new weapons ...

Actually, the world has never been so peaceful for quite a few decades. Less warfare and strife. Russia is still a poor country in comparison to the West (smaller GDP than the UK and over twice as many population), so perhaps they should be directing cash elsewhere.

Regards

Originally posted by manson_322
finally some good news , with increasingly threatening imperialist american war mongering and aggression acrosss the world , it becomes necessary for test new weapons ...

Well, at least someone is showing us why Putin is popular. Not to get off-topic at all, but hey, the Germans elected Hitler to the Reichstag, too. It's always so hard to explain to people why Russia loves Putin so much. Thanks for the helping hand, there. Now, back on topic...

using a combo of SSK with a nuke reactor , it is cheaper to develop such sub that combines the capability of silence of SSK with endurance of SSN
at much cheaper costs .... thereby one of the best ideas ever

This seems to be so far off the mark it isn't funny.

also SSK's are the most silent subs in the world

Yes, that is true. You know why?

'Cause diesels use batteries when submerged. Batteries which make, in comparison to reactors, no sound.

Nukes, on the other hand, boil water. Which is what opfor sonarmen are listening for: the bubbles.

So, a boat that has to surface to run its diesel engines, not making it in any way vulnerable, and also, at the same time a boat that has a noisy power system when submerged.

in other words a boat which has neither "the capability of silence of SSK" or "endurance of SSN"

reply to post by Tonka


and i do disagree - the reactor will be `stand alone` and nothing like the reactors on SSN`s - simply providing a low level of thermal energy as an AIP system , and will totally benefit russian thinking - one that is `outside the box` - great move by them - it will be far from complex and will enhance the capabilities of the SSk`s - by giving them AIP.

edit:

the original thread :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and the picture of the Topaz II 10KWe reactor

fti.neep.wisc.edu...


very comparable to a Sterling AIP.

my comments in the above thread happily still stand

[edit on 20/12/07 by Harlequin]

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


please refer to harlequinn post below

Originally posted by paraphi
I am not entirely sure I see the benefits, it would be more complex and costly.

Originally posted by manson_322
finally some good news , with increasingly threatening imperialist american war mongering and aggression acrosss the world , it becomes necessary for test new weapons ...

Actually, the world has never been so peaceful for quite a few decades. Less warfare and strife. Russia is still a poor country in comparison to the West (smaller GDP than the UK and over twice as many population), so perhaps they should be directing cash elsewhere.

Regards

really and then how come does USA murder a million civilians in Iraq and 190000 guns go missing in iraq

I will pose a simple question, who here thinks that modern US SSN's cannot operate under battery power for some period of time? I know what's publically published, I'm asking for opinions here.

i`ll answer that - simple they can - BUT its the `turning off `of the reactor which is the issue - unlike a car engine they can`t be turned off and on at will .

reply to post by manson_322


First of all, the USA didn't murder 1 million Iraqi civilians. Secondly nobody else did either, as the total number killed by anyone(US or Insurgent/Al Qaeda) is about a tenth of that figure, with the vast majority having been killed by Iraqi on Iraqi(or Foreign Fighter on Iraqi).

manson you forget about the over 30 million civilians killed by the communist murderers of Russia.

If we are imperialist killers then Russia is a mass murder that can not be topped.

Russia is more of a dictatorship then US. Putin will not give up power. He hand picked his replacement, and will be "not in control" as the prime minister.

Hey, It is cool Russia has a new sub. Leave your political crap out of it. Cause Russia can out body count just about any country save China.



[edit on 20-12-2007 by sbob]

Originally posted by manson_322
really and then how come does USA murder a million civilians in Iraq and 190000 guns go missing in iraq

"Murder"? Come on give it a rest! Next you'll be saying the Russians murdered a million Chechenians(sp). I thought it was about a new Russian sub, so stop the Yankie-bashing balderdash.

As for nuclear and diesel, I suppose it would be too obvious to state that current nuclear subs have diesel generators... Would these be for secondary propulsion or just for emergency power??

Regards

Has anybody considered a possibility that nuclear subs can be traced by neutrino detection? It's exceedingly hard but I had info from a reliable Soviet source back in the 80s that some work was being done.

Now that would explain that diesel might be the way to avoid such detection, under certain circumstances.

Originally posted by Harlequin
...they can`t be turned off and on at will .

Well technically they can, the reactor is shut down when the sub is in port for an extended period of time or when it is undergoing repairs. Still though, it would not be practical. However a reduction in the use of the reactor and its main components will significantly reduce noise levels. Running, minimal systems only with battery power with the reactor at low levels and cruising at 5 knots will make an SSN very very hard to detect. Of course if the nuclear boat wants speed power etc.. then it will have to use the reactor as usual, but it's not as if AIP boats are the only ones who can use batteries to remain silent. In a sense technically what the Russians are experimenting with can already be done.

Originally posted by sbob
manson you forget about the over 30 million civilians killed by the communist murderers of Russia.

If we are imperialist killers then Russia is a mass murder that can not be topped.

Russia is more of a dictatorship then US. Putin will not give up power. He hand picked his replacement, and will be "not in control" as the prime minister.

Hey, It is cool Russia has a new sub. Leave your political crap out of it. Cause Russia can out body count just about any country save China.



[edit on 20-12-2007 by sbob]

manson you forget about the over 30 million civilians killed by the communist murderers of Russia.

propaganda ...
60 million died from 1917 to 1970
32-35 million murdered by nazis
18-27 million died by the actions of american/british/german imperialist inavsions and trotsky military communism imposed on russia during the russian civil war
7-8 million during Stalin era

www.abovepolitics.com...

and yes, USa is a mass murderer that cannot be topped too
20-30 million native indians were killed by american occuption
14-16 million murdered in the third world by USA


link :
www.intellnet.org...
anyways this is off-topic

-----------------------
westpoint posted:

In a sense technically what the Russians are experimenting with can already be done.

they had first experimented with it in 1985 , and now once again , some analysts believe its in respons to german type 212 anaerobic fuel cell AIP system