If a pole shift occurs?

Will all of our electronics still work? Will cars, and computers and food processors still function in the event of a pole shift?



and a very interesting question here:


What kind of environmental changes could we expect?

... it's doubtful anything survives that isn't an underground city in the case of a pole shift:

en.wikipedia.org...

One early popular proponent of a pole shift theory was Hugh Auchincloss Brown, an electrical engineer who advanced a theory of catastrophic pole shift. Brown argued that accumulation of ice at the poles caused recurring tipping of the axis in cycles of approximately 7 millennia.

This is an example of slow pole shift motion, which displays the most minor alterations and no destruction. A more dramatic view assumes more rapid changes, with dramatic alterations of geography and localized areas of destruction due to earthquakes and tsunamis. Several recent books propose changes that take place in weeks, days, or even hours,[4] resulting in a variety of doomsday scenarios.

Some Mayan theories reside in an 'end times' pole/electromagnetic shift(s) where no satellites or anything on Earth survive. I've heard speculation that the solar flares in 2011/12 could trigger this sort of event.

Define what you mean by not anything surviving? Do you mean our gadgets or do you mean all life. Pole shifts have occurred before, and they will occur again.

What I'm wondering is what happens to all our cool toys, will electronics survive such a event?

Think about it carefully. It would be a planetary surfride. Gas lines exlpoding. Water lines exploding. It would be a party. Some will survive. They always do.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by jpm1602
Think about it carefully. It would be a planetary surfride. Gas lines exlpoding. Water lines exploding. It would be a party. Some will survive. They always do.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by jpm1602]

But will positive remain positive and negative remain negative and what effect would a pole shift have on electrical properties?

I was going more along the lines of a physical shift. There is a lot of data out there to interpolate pole shifts with actual physically winding up in Antarctica. Like the perfectly preserved iced out tropical plants found in Antarctica. Just my two cow cookies. No one really knows.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by jpm1602]

Google Video Link

You can find the full Nova special "Magnetic Storm" at Google vid.
It may leave us unprotected from cosmic radiation, with global aurora effects and most probably disrupt electrical systems world wide. Even the coming solar storm has the potential to wipe out transformers on earth and leave earth in the dark for up to a year or more, (in a worst case scenario) at the very least it will disrupt GPS an satellite communication.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by squiz]

I have felt a bad moon riseth for some time now. Dragon, IMHO suppose everything that was one pos, would be neg, and visa versa.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by jpm1602]

[edit on 3-12-2007 by jpm1602]

As far as my understanding of it goes, a rapid flip would essentially wipe out most life as we know it today. The exposure to radiation alone would be enough to kill people outright but the effects it would have on food supplies etc would be just as bad.

There's more to it than that of course, I'm oversimplifying, but I'm a little bit tired. Suffice to say that you don't want a polar shift to happen and thats based on current scientific evidence not conspiracy theories.

The actual psysicallity of such an event, mountain upheavals etc would be montrous. To survive such a plight would be wonderous.

Originally posted by jpm1602
I have felt a bad moon riseth for some time now. Dragon, IMHO suppose everything that was one pos, would be neg, and visa versa.

Our magnetic field protects us from radiation, a planetary shield you could say. If a rapid pole shift occurs, or really any shift occurs, IMO none of our machines would work.

As for killing us all, considering these shifts have occurred in the past yet life still exists here I don't think the shift itself would hurt us much. However if our machines, communication, and electronics no longer work, we as a species would be in serious trouble.

How could you feed 6 billion people without our technology, transportation and the like, well the answer is simple, we couldn't.

You couldn't most of them would be dead for starters, then it would be cave and spear time.

Originally posted by jpm1602
suppose everything that was one pos, would be neg, and visa versa.

It won't cause electrons to change polarity so +ve and -ve in electrical terms won't change. Motors etc are not reliant on outside magnetic fields - they produce their own internally.

We don't really know much about the makeup of the planet but the most accepted theory has a mantle of solid material 'floating' on a layer of fluid rock (magma) with a solid core of majorly metallic (iron, nickel) at the centre. The core produces the magnetic field so it has to be at a temperature below the 'Curie Point' where ferromagnetic characteristics cease. The melting of the lower portion of the mantle is due to tidal flexing caused the gravitational forces exerted by the sun and moon.

Now if there is a complete sphere of fluid 2 types of pole shift are possible
1 A mantle shift would be catastrophic if it happened relatively quickly with oceans washing over mountains and huge earthquake & volcanic upheavals.
2. A core shift where the mantle remains fixed which is much less damaging in geographical terms as the magnetic poles get relocated only. There could be earthquake/volcanic activity with this scenario if the fluid layer isn't uniform.

Unless the core temperature rises above the Curie Point the magnetic field will not disappear so the Van Allen belts should follow but the motion (again if it's a fast shift) could cause major disruption of power systems. Remembering electrical theory, voltage is generated by moving a conductor through a magnetic field and in this case the magnetic field is moving so there could be spurious voltages produced which would trip major transmission lines with sensitive protection systems. A 'black' system takes quite a while to rebuild as many north americans and europeans will be aware from recent events.

A lot of sensitive electronic equipment could be disrupted but not destroyed.

Ah, the beauty of AC. We are all saved.

Yes there is some confusion around the term "pole shift". There are two types generally, the more catastrophic crust slippage is an area of debate among scientist as to whether this has actually occurred or not. The other is a pole wander which is either a geographical shift (true) relative to the spin axis or a magnetic shift.
The Geomagnetic flip is preceded by a gradual weakening of the Earths magnetic field, the flip actually takes thousands of years, we have nothing to be concerned about as far as the flip goes, however it's the weakened magnetic field that will cause concern.

The next solar max is predicted to be a large one, perhaps of a size we have not encountered in our modern technological times. As I said earlier the potential does exist for power grids to be wiped out and transformers destroyed if they are not shut down, shutting them down is costly and time consuming as I understand it and there will be a very small window of opportunity for this to take place.

Oak Ridge National Laboratories estimated that only a solar storm just slightly stronger than the 13 March 1989 storm (Dst = 589 nT) would have the capacity to produce a cascading blackout involving the entire Northeastern sector of the United States. So the question is “What damage would a spawned geomagnetic storm like the one of 2 September 1859 (Dst = 1,760 nT) bring?”
Would it simultaneously degrade and damage several unique large electrical transformers at key electrical generating stations taking down the massive power grid? Would the long lead-time required to manufacture and install replacement equipment result in major year long electrical blackouts, rolling blackouts and brownouts? How would a long-term lack of stable electricity affect advanced civilization?

Solar Storm Threat Analasys

You may also wish to check out this one.
Solar Storm Disaster Preparedness Plan

These are both pdf's and are a bit of a lengthy read.

I can only imagine the chaos that would ensue from a year of blackouts.
It's is only a matter of time until we see the next solar super storm and now in our technological age we are going to know about it, and with a weakened magnetic field the potential for disaster is increased.

With a physical pole shift you could imagine it would take not long for the planet to flip..a matter of hours. The land masses would be dragged under the oceans, most buildings smashed into fragments due to the large velocity of the water and the sheer inertia of the ground moving at hundreds of miles an hour.

Perhaps only streamlined buildings that minimise thier resistance to this water and debri flowing across the land masses would survive ? like say something in the shape of a pyramid ?.

I have talked at length of this possibility and the conclusion I have come to is that the safest places to ride out the catastrophe is any places on earth that have had continuous indigenous inhabitants with unbroken lineage for at least 50 000 years. Only places I can come up with is central Africa and good ole Australia, to be sure as they have the oldest recorded lineage of races going back that far to have survived possibly more than one pole flip.

Originally posted by squiz
As I said earlier the potential does exist for power grids to be wiped out and transformers destroyed if they are not shut down, shutting them down is costly and time consuming as I understand it and there will be a very small window of opportunity for this to take place.

Electrical generation and distribution systems have extensive high speed protection systems that operate in milliseconds. The major components such as generators & transformers are majorly sturdy pieces of plant and the weakest, most sensitive part of the overall system is the protection system itself (all electronic these days) and perhaps the generator excitation control systems. Losing enough transmission lines and generators due to protection operation will cause a cascade effect resulting in a total blackout which could take many days to put back together for a large country.

i myself deduced that the catostrophic shifting of the Earth's crust
has only happened in imagination...

consider the finding of all types of dinosaur fossils all over the world,
80-100+ million year old fossils are found most every land mass on earth,
consider also the bedrock of land up there in northern Canada which is
established as being there for +1-2 Billion years....

Now if the Earth had periodic (100-200 thousand year pole-reversals)
then most all the fossils of dinosaurs from 85-65 million years ago
would not be so abundant on our presnt land masses,
the majority of these fossils would be under the seas/oceans because that's what covers 70% of the planets surface.
multi-million year old fossilized bones would be very rare & scarce
instead of being ubiquitious.
so that should help squelch the crust traveling at hundreds of miles an-hour 'polar shift' theory.


if the magentic poles reversed, the birds, bees, whales and other species
that migrate would get 'lost'
your Garmin and your GPS units would serve better as fish line weights,
on the good side, all those ICBMs and smart bombs will just sit in their silos or be untargetable and remain on the subs or whatever....
all the worlds Mirvs would sit there useless....

hey, peace in our time

[edit on 3-12-2007 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio


What does a pole shift magnetic or otherwise have to do with a GPS
they use satellites to give coordinates now granted the terrain would look a lot different but the GPS should still function provided the satellites are still there.


Also what is your background in the area of earth sciences that you feel so inclined to dispute the claims of well reputed international scientists everywhere that have stated and have research to back up what they are saying..

I do however agree that it would screw up the migratory species.. good point on that one


anyway I just would like to know what your credentials are and where you got your data sets before making this claim..
just curious on this one.


also keep in mind that pole shift should not be confused with plate tectonics two very different subjects.

"Pole shift theories are not to be confused with plate tectonics, the well-accepted geological theory that the Earth's surface consists of solid plates which shift over a fluid asthenosphere; nor with continental drift, the corollary to plate tectonics which maintains that locations of the continents have moved slowly over the face of the earth,[1] resulting in the gradual emerging and breakup of continents and oceans over hundreds of millions of years."


below are links to various researchers and proponents of pole shifts.

www.habtheory.com...
geoweb.princeton.edu...

Respectfully
GEO

[edit on 12/3/2007 by geocom]

[edit on 12/3/2007 by geocom]

[edit on 12/3/2007 by geocom]

Originally posted by Pilgrum
Electrical generation and distribution systems have extensive high speed protection systems that operate in milliseconds. The major components such as generators & transformers are majorly sturdy pieces of plant and the weakest, most sensitive part of the overall system is the protection system itself (all electronic these days) and perhaps the generator excitation control systems. Losing enough transmission lines and generators due to protection operation will cause a cascade effect resulting in a total blackout which could take many days to put back together for a large country.

It is a little more complicated, I only know this from the papers I linked in my previous post. Well worth the read. I found these after wacthing a discovery channel documentary that made the claim for potential year long blackout from a solar super storm, can't remember the name of it sorry. My first thought was no way! that can't be right, but it does seem possible from what I've found. If there were no plan in place.

There is a singular aspect present in the very largest solar storms that has the potential for creating a global disaster, potentially knocking civilization to its knees. The very largest solar storms have the potential for simultaneously destroying key elements of the electrical power grid infrastructure. These elements are unique, expensive and have long lead times (greater than 1 year) for replacement.

The danger to transformers is from geomagnetic induced currents. (GICs).

GICs can cause transformers to be driven into half-cycle saturation where the core of the transformer is magnetically saturate on alternate half-cycles. Only a few amperes are needed to disrupt transformer operations. A GIC level induced voltage of 1 to 2 volts per kilometer and 5 amperes in the neutral of the high-voltage windings is sufficient to drive grounded wye-connected distribution transformers into saturation in a second or less. During geomagnetic storms, GIC currents as high as 184 amps have been measured in the United States in the neutral leg of transformers.13 The largest GIC measured thus far was 270 amperes during a geomagnetic storm in Southern Sweden on April 6, 2000.
If transformer half-cycle saturation is allowed to continue, stray flux can enter the transformer structural tank members and current windings. Localized hot spots can develop quickly inside the transformers tank as
temperatures rise hundreds of degrees within a few minutes.3 Temperature spikes as high as 750° F have been measured. As transformers switches 60 times per second between being saturated and unsaturated, the normal hum of a transformer becomes a raucous, cracking whine. Regions of opposed magnetism as big as a fist in the core steel plates crash about and vibrate the 100-ton transformers which are nearly the size of a small house. This punishment can go on for hours for the duration of the geomagnetic storm. GIC induced saturation can also cause excessive gas evolution within transformers. Besides outright failure, the evidence of distress is increased gas content in transformer oil, especially those gases generated by decomposition of cellulose, vibration of the transformer tank and core, and increased noise levels of the transformers (noise level increases of 80 dB have been observed). GIC transformer damage is progressive in nature. Accumulated overheating damage results in shortening transformer winding insulation lifespan eventually leading to premature failure.

A little history.

August 2, 1972 – A solar storm caused a 230,000 volt transformer located at the British Columbia Hydro and Power Authority to explode.

December 19, 1980 – A very expensive 735 kV transformer failed 8 days after the Great Red Aurora of 19 December at St. James Bay, Canada.

April 13, 1981 – A replacement 735 kV transformer at St. James Bay, Canada also failed the next year during another geomagnetic storm.

March 13, 1989 – At 02:45 EST on March 13, geomagnetically induced currents (GIC) inundated the transformers of the Hydro-Quebec power system and overloaded them with current....

March 13, 1989 – The solar storm destroyed a $12 million generator step-up transformer owned by the Public Service Electric and Gas Company of New Jersey.

October 30, 2003 – A power grid in southern Sweden located in Malmo experienced a 20-50 minute electrical blackout affecting 50,000 customers due to a strong solar storm. The same storm caused significant transformer damage in South Africa. Over 15 transformers in South Africa were damaged, some beyond repair.