Paul hi-jacked the new 'faith'?

reply to post by AshleyD


I just gotta ask..Have you ever considered that Jesus was sent as a test of our wickedness? would we kill a man of peace. Yes. We failed the test and the last 2 millenia have been the hell we were sentenced to?
Considering the fundemental basis in organized religion,the acceptance in to the US group, and not left out with the 'Them" groups. Only by following the Holy Hierarchy will you find salvation.
mankind lost it's way as soon as we decided to agree and set standards for beliefs in regards to the most personal of expereinces. the words "Through me" is the phrase that tips their hands.
If He made you He can certainly interact with you when ever and where ever He chooses. "Gods'' don't need secretaries.
The ambitions of Men have lead the spiritual astray, through cold calculations down the line.
The only phrase that rings true to me is
'God is everything and everything is God'- even an atheist like me can rationalize what that means. WE are the only species on this Earth that can improve or destroy it . We are the Shepherd of the world. We have been given a wonderful gift, but one that must be tended to constantly- a Huge responsiblity.
I could care less if you followed the doctine of Martians- as long as you realize we have work to do here and now. We must PAY IT FORWORD.
Many 'Holy rollers' spend more time thumping their Holy books then they do studying the lessons they are trying to convey. Aesops fables-It's not the characters in the story -it's the Moral fo the Story.
Whether Christ was the Son of God or just a Great Man to me is irrelevant. I would hope if not a follower of his at the time- I would still not have raise a stone or voice against him. Any voice of Non Violence and tolerance should never be silenced, at any time, for any reason.
Who lead the Christians away from from the teaching of Christ?? All of them , those who placed themselves in positions 'closer to divinity' (thus allowed power and riches by those who's 'souls' they judge).
There are times... when I think to myself- I hope they're right. Judgement Day comes and we all get to find out who won the jackpot. I'm not planning on it being me since I don't play. I just plug away everyday and be happy if I get a mental "cookie". Heavens on Earth- If you want it. every day in the craziest ways. We are in Eden, we just are too busy gambling on the Lottery to noticed riches we've been handed. And in return I try to share a little heaven with the rest of the inhabitants I encounter, everyday.
If you ever get a chance to ask Atheists about their philosophy I think you'll find they are as diverse and intricate as any religions. It just gets to difficult to explain in a word.
It seems more time, energy, lives have been spent splitting religious hairs than practicing the faith, following the main theme, learning the lesson from our ancestors failure, accomplishments and sacrific.
It's about time the Eclectic segments of society step forward and move the conversations away from the insignificant details of books, and begin to address the problems we are currently facing without such distraction,
bias and futility.

Originally posted by purple girl
I just gotta ask..Have you ever considered that Jesus was sent as a test of our wickedness?

Yes, and then I laughed at myself for wondering about something so illogical.

would we kill a man of peace. Yes. We failed the test and the last 2 millenia have been the hell we were sentenced to?

You might not realize it but you just verified exactly what the Bible tells us!

The Messianic prophecies state the Messiah would be rejected and killed (He was). Jesus also used a parable of a master sending his servants (the Old Testament prophets) with a message to the people but they killed the servants. Then the master sends his own son (Jesus) and they kill him too. Big mistake! Finally, the master himself arrives and judges the wicked people.

Jesus also rebuked the pharisees and doubters who did not recognize Him in spite of all the hundreds (yes hundreds) of prophecies describing His arrival in the greatest detail (even to the year)! They had been studying these prophecies for centuries. When the time finally came, they still wouldn't believe the evidence right in front of their eyes.

So what did Jesus say? If you had accepted me with all the prophetic warnings from the prophets and if you had believed my miracles I performed right in front of you, I would have set up my kingdom on earth right now, put an end to wickedness, and liberated all of you. But because you didn't heed the warnings and evidence, you will not see my face again until the appointed time, Jerusalem and the temple will be destroyed (this happened), and you will be ejected from the land (this happened) until the appointed time (this happened).

Jesus even states how much He would love to gather us together like a mother hen and her chicks but because of our refusal, He will respect our conscious choice. The examples go on and on.

But this came as no surprise to Jesus that He would be rejected. Hence, the dualism of two advents: One of a suffering servant and one of a coming king. Not to mention all the prophecies concerning statements like "the stone the builder rejecter will be the cornerstone" and "They will reject the good shepherd but accept the wicked shepherd."

If He made you He can certainly interact with you when ever and where ever He chooses. "Gods'' don't need secretaries.

Absolutely. He doesn't need a single one of us. But as to why He is not here among us now in visible form is already explained multiple times throughout the Bible.

Whether Christ was the Son of God or just a Great Man to me is irrelevant.

I have to disagree. If he was just a great man and teacher, I can see how this would be irrelevant to you, me, or anyone else. But if He was truly the Son of God and what He said is true, then Heaven and Hell are real places, He is really going to return, all will be judged, and all will give an account. So yes, it would be wholly relevant to anyone and everyone if the former of our two options is true.

Who lead the Christians away from from the teaching of Christ?? All of them , those who placed themselves in positions 'closer to divinity' (thus allowed power and riches by those who's 'souls' they judge).

I totally agree with you. These apostate teachers are in for some not so great times. But there are some of us, a small remnant, who still follow His teachings and shun man-made dogma.

Ashley,
As you guess I still disagree. Paul says faith in Jesus alone and Jesus says thru faith of our father and works will you return to heaven.
He had no choice but to die and he knew this from the begining. As an Acarya he is sent to teach the message to the masses. Not only that but to be a living example. Now imagine if when faced with possible death he stopped preaching dissapeared how would that have helped his breathern?
How would that have taught the masses to love and understand God?
If he ran it would have undid all the teaching he had set forth. He did not die to pay for our sins he died because he loved God and was sent to teach and be the example. The example is that you should love and have the faith in God enough to walk thru the flame ... to face death and realise that this body is just a lump of matter .... that its the soul that really matters and your faith. Does not matter if your faith is Christian or muslim or jewish or hindu or vedic or anything autherised by God (and yes God send his message either by him, his incarnations, or his teachers to all different races of people according to time and circumstance.... and you can tell the truth fromthe false if your spiritual eyes are open to it) as long as you truly have unflinching faith and love.

reply to post by plague


We will have to agree to disagree then.

I don't know of any works Jesus specified for us to receive salvation. Quite the opposite, actually. When asked what works were necessary for salvation He replied that only belief in Him (His works and mission) was necessary:

"Then they asked Him, 'What must we do to do the works God requires?' Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.'" John 6:28-29

Also John 3:15-18

All of that is straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. There are many other references as well.

I believe the concept of Jesus' death as not being "enough" cheapens what He did at the cross, His death was a choice- he didn't "have to do it," and of course I disagree that He was one of many avatars.

So again, it looks like we will be forced to agree to disagree.

Ashley,
Then we must agree to disagree. Ive studied alot of Vedic Shastra
and it has opened my eyes to alot of spiritual realisation that most human beings will not have. I had read the bible several times and had around the same conclusion as you and most other christians, but then around 15 years ago (maybe longer) I began to read the Vedic holy works and thru the mercy of God and his grace Acarya Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupadas books and instructions along with other Guru Maharajas that I have learned from I was able to open up spiritual eyes and hear the transendental knowlege from God. Now when I read the bible I can see it from a different view a deeper understanding then most. And if you read the lost agnostic text like the dead see scrolls you will find that the bible is only the elementary stuff, but you will also come to see it in a different light.

Oh yea there is a big difference between an Avatar and an Acarya. Please stop accusing me of calling Jesus an Avatar as I do not believe that he was a direct manifestation of the lord. Thank you and please except my humble appologies if I have offended you.

Ashley,
Then we must agree to disagree. Ive studied alot of Vedic Shastra
and it has opened my eyes to alot of spiritual realisation that most human beings will not have. I had read the bible several times and had around the same conclusion as you and most other christians, but then around 15 years ago (maybe longer) I began to read the Vedic holy works and thru the mercy of God and his grace Acarya Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupadas books and instructions along with other Guru Maharajas that I have learned from I was able to open up spiritual eyes and hear the transendental knowlege from God. Now when I read the bible I can see it from a different view a deeper understanding then most. And if you read the lost agnostic text like the dead see scrolls you will find that the bible is only the elementary stuff, but you will also come to see it in a different light.

Oh yea there is a big difference between an Avatar and an Acarya. Please stop accusing me of calling Jesus an Avatar as I do not believe that he was a direct manifestation of the lord. Thank you and please except my humble appologies if I have offended you.

Originally posted by plague
Ive studied alot of Vedic Shastra
and it has opened my eyes to alot of spiritual realisation that most human beings will not have. I had read the bible several times and had around the same conclusion as you and most other christians...

As in you have read the Bible all the way through several times or as in you have read various sections of it often? Just curious. But of course my question has ulterior motives.

Oh yea there is a big difference between an Avatar and an Acarya.

Sorry about that. I should have clarified. Most religions see Jesus simply as a teacher (Acharya) and prophet, as you already know, while Christians believe Jesus was God incarnate (Avatar). The confusion is my fault -especially when you already corrected me once but I kept using the incorrect terminology.

Thank you and please except my humble appologies if I have offended you.

You haven't offended me at all! In fact I've been worried this whole time I had offended you and that you'd think I was being condescending. Group hug!

[edit on 1/2/2008 by AshleyD]

Ashley,
Sorry it took so long to reply, Ive been a busy. But to answer your question. I read the bible maybe two or three times when i was younger. Ive been very interested in God and religion ever since I could remember.
And no my parents even though "Christian" were not very religious and did not push it on me. I took it upon myself to search it out.
I sorta took the words in the bible at Face value. Then when I was around 14 or so I discoverd Krishna consciuosness. Which introduced me to the Vedas. After a few years (id say around maybe 10 years) of learning Vedic Shastra I sat down and read the bible again (yes all the way through). I was blown away at how elementary the bibles teachings were compared to the Vedas. They hold much of the same basic things but the Vedas seem to explain so much more about our universe, the soul,God and there relationship to one another. Then I was introduced to the gnostic text or the dead sea scrolls. These read more like the Vedas and had alot more advanced teachings then the bible and were what Jesus more then likely actually taught to the more intelligent people of the time.
Reading these text I found that Jesus was a Vaishna and very much so taught God consciousness and the science of the soul. I have read the bible all the way through maybe 3 or 4 times since and I do often sit down and maybe read just a letter from it here and there.

I was never offended by you as I dont offend very easily. Frustrate yes but never offended.

As for Paul hijacking "Christianity"..... I dont think he did it on porpose or to be malicious toward Jesus's followers but he just was not advanced enough to be teaching and spreading the word. I do think however the council who put the book together used Pauls letters to confuse the masses and to mislead future followers.

[edit on 6-1-2008 by plague]