Stop the M.A.D.D.ness!!!

Originally posted by RANT
A 77% increase in arrests is NOT a success. That's a failure of the system. "Drunk" driving deaths haven't changed! They've just ruined twice as many lives over potential "future crimes."

Correct, an increase in arrests is just that--an increase in arrests.

MADD acknowledges as early as 2004 that alcohol related accidents and alcohol related fatalities were somewhat static (also somewhat due their credit), yet teen alcohol related accidents are on the sharp rise.

The NHTSA considers an accident/fatlity to be alcohol related if BAC>.01. (see link below)

MADD often quotes stats that will remain static to show need for further effort, funding and enforcement. The lower end of the BAC.08, thus decreases in the BAC>.08 accidents do not noticeably move the alcohol related accident line (but lowering the tolerance level again will) especially when throwing in an admittedly ever increasing population of under 21 (teen) which is enlarging the overall data pool,.

Note: The NHTSA combines and does not differentiate the under 21 (teen) alcohol related stats illegal/legal alien alcohol related driving stats as part of the overall national statistical data pool (often quoted by MADD) further padding the data compilation. All persons subject to a differing relative set of laws long before they get behind the wheel of an automobile.

State Data on Traffic Accidents (NHTSA)

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Don't think that you are safe with a designated driver any more!!!!!

A group of us go to dart tournaments most weekends and we use a designated driver. One of the guys on my dart team Dave, can't drink because of medical reasons. We ride with him and kick in for gas and buy him dinner and pay his entry fee for the tournament. Last weekend Dave calls me and says that his car is in the shop and that we can't go to the tournament. I say lets just take my van and he can drive. Dave works as a paralegal for a lawyer who handles DUI cases. Aparently there is some kind of thing called "DUI by consent " that states if the owner of the car is intoxicated that they are unable to give consent for someone else to operate the car even if they are sober. If anyone knows something about this please post it.

More proof MADD won already and doesn't even know.

I just had a very interesting conversation with a regional representative for MADD over an issue personally affecting me. Despite being more than helpful (for which I give them total credit), the spokesperson...

1) Had no idea there was a MADD inspired national database of DUI convictions linked to your social security number that allows (nay FORCES) one state to "withhold" your driving status in other states indefinitely with no official recourse or opportunity for advocacy if not a resident in the "hold" state. Even if you did everything you were supposed to do.

2) Was positive anyone, anywhere, regardless of MADD's efforts could just walk into any DMV office in any state 'even if they just killed someone in another' and get a license. "I mean terrorists and Mexicans do it all the time."

My responses:

1) Oh but they can. In fact, they do. They have no choice. Even they (the DMV) thinks it's stupid and wants someone to change it but has no idea who's in charge anymore. They sent me to you.

2) That may have been true at one time. And it may be true for "terrorists and Mexicans" now. But I'm neither. I'm a US citizen and I'm trying to do the right thing, but there's no room in the "system" you helped create for people like me. Honest people that do what they're told, jump through hoops and hope for the best. That's now officially a fruitless endeavor.

Again, to the representative's credit, MADD was one of the most helpful organizations I've spoken with in the years I've been navigating this flawed system including the DMV, various state Judges, the Attorney General and even my own lawyer, but they had no idea how to interpret a resolution to the iron clad legislation cycle they've helped create.

And it just reinforces my fears from all along. Nobody is in charge here. We just keep making laws, increasing punishments and closing "loopholes" until there's nothing left but a giant trap ensnaring more and more Americans every year with no recourse, no time served, no solution and no end in sight.

Somebody in charge, seriously, please take responsibility for this system and stop the maddness. The War on Us is won. The American spirit defeated. We submit. The lobbyists won. "UNCLE." Declare victory already and stand down. Quit making new laws, just fix the ones we have. There has to be a solution for every American in every situation. And that should be mandatory.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by RANT]

I guess I'm kind of old school about things, but stupid is as stupid does.

If it is illegal to drive drunk or under the influence, and one takes one's chances and gets caught at or near being drunk while driving, I believe that the law should be enforced to the fullest extent (All 23,000 of them or however many there are)...

It's common sense and respect for others. I, personally, don't want to chance hitting, injuring, or killing someone while I'm wasted. That's is an absolute absence of brain cells. Ergo Sum... or what ever... If I am likely to get close to harms way by drinking in a situation, I avoid drinking in that situation.

Having seen these types of senseless deaths, and people who are repeatedly bounced for DWI/DUI, and don't lose their driving privileges (privs, not rights), I am all for losing your license for life if you are dumb enough to get into a situation where you just have to drink and drive.

Seems pretty simple to me. And no... I'm not a Republican, or a neocon.. I just believe that we bandy about different options and the one that gets left out is personal responsibility. You are responsible for your actions, and if you know that there are consequences, and you still go and do the dumb action, then you deserve the consequences.

Originally posted by sigung86
Having seen these types of senseless deaths, and people who are repeatedly bounced for DWI/DUI, and don't lose their driving privileges (privs, not rights), I am all for losing your license for life if you are dumb enough to get into a situation where you just have to drink and drive.

And the misinformation continues. Nobody gets "bounced" now. Everybody is punished. Severely. And even when they do everything they're supposed to do including jail, house arrest, hundreds of hours of community service, tens of thousands of dollars on treatment and re-education, years and years and years without a licence, jumping through hoop after hoop, all of which is contrary to what they were told at sentencing (for a punishment not to legally exceed 3 years), many find themselves in a system with no resolution, nobody in charge, and nobody to turn to. So much of the "punishment" is outsourced now to private probation agencies, AA, a state complicit psychiatric industry, "interlock" shops and a DMV that can't figure out if it's part of the public service or a penal system, that long after a sentence is "served" and every single party involved agrees you have paid your debt above and beyond the terms of sentencing and deserve a license again, there's simply no one in authority to figure out how to enforce their own laws. It's that cluster#ed.

I'm not talking about people that legally have their license revoked for life. That's fine. They probably killed somebody and are in jail anyway. Or people that drive DUI again WITHOUT a license. I'm talking about law abiding US citizens in their 5th, 7th or 10th year of a 3 year suspension still jumping through hoops with no end in sight because they blew .1 at a "check point" outside the TGIFriday's in Cobb Country, Georgia last millennium and nobody at the DMV knows how to work the one-way national database Mother's Against Drunk Drivers set up to prevent "loopholes." After so long, you're not looking for loopholes. You don't belong there. There SHOULD be a solution. Every agency involved thinks so. No matter what those not involved (yet) might think.

Great post Rant

It just goes to show what happens when a seemingly good group gets too much influence. The sad part is that this is one of countless lobby groups trying to push their agenda and will on others.

Originally posted by RANT

They don't want to stop drunk driving; they want to PUNISH it.

Hmmm. Now that you mention it, "Let it happen then nail the suckers" is a pretty common strategy. Like with the CIA funding coc aine imports - they bring it in, sell it, then arrest people for buying it. ''

Why IS that?

I'm really glad to see this post, it's probably the best I've seen for a long time on this site. Our current dui laws are the most anti-constitutional laws in existance. It is a proven fact that BAC can't be summarily applied to driving ability (or lack there of). I've also seen stats that cell phone use when driving is more impairing than .08 bac in a majority of people tested.

Here is a good site for more info on how these laws stomp on our civil rights.

www.duiblog.com...

[edit on 24-9-2005 by Apoc]

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by sigung86
Having seen these types of senseless deaths, and people who are repeatedly bounced for DWI/DUI, and don't lose their driving privileges (privs, not rights), I am all for losing your license for life if you are dumb enough to get into a situation where you just have to drink and drive.

And the misinformation continues. Nobody gets "bounced" now. Everybody is punished. Severely. And even when they do everything they're supposed to do including jail, house arrest, hundreds of hours of community service, tens of thousands of dollars on treatment and re-education, years and years and years without a licence, jumping through hoop after hoop, all of which is contrary to what they were told at sentencing (for a punishment not to legally exceed 3 years), many find themselves in a system with no resolution, nobody in charge, and nobody to turn to. So much of the "punishment" is outsourced now to private probation agencies, AA, a state complicit psychiatric industry, "interlock" shops and a DMV that can't figure out if it's part of the public service or a penal system, that long after a sentence is "served" and every single party involved agrees you have paid your debt above and beyond the terms of sentencing and deserve a license again, there's simply no one in authority to figure out how to enforce their own laws. It's that cluster#ed.

I'm not talking about people that legally have their license revoked for life. That's fine. They probably killed somebody and are in jail anyway. Or people that drive DUI again WITHOUT a license. I'm talking about law abiding US citizens in their 5th, 7th or 10th year of a 3 year suspension still jumping through hoops with no end in sight because they blew .1 at a "check point" outside the TGIFriday's in Cobb Country, Georgia last millennium and nobody at the DMV knows how to work the one-way national database Mother's Against Drunk Drivers set up to prevent "loopholes." After so long, you're not looking for loopholes. You don't belong there. There SHOULD be a solution. Every agency involved thinks so. No matter what those not involved (yet) might think.

I think, Rant, you missed my point. Drink - Drive - Lose your license. End of story.

Your inability to control your impulses and only drink where it is safe to drink and not have to drive to endanger my family, or me with your drinking/driving lunacy is not my issue. If you don't care enough about the possibilities and prospects in your life, and you don't care enough about other people you could possibly endanger, injure, or kill, to show discretion about drinking and driving... Then if you get caught legally drunk and driving... then if you get your license taken away... So what?

Not a problem for me, or to me. If I drink-drive-get caught, and lose my license, that ain't nobodies fault but mine. It is not the state's problem, it's not the court's problem, it is not my dear old sainted great aunt in Miami's problem... It's MY problem. If it's lost forever, then it's because I was stupid about drinking and driving.

I don't know how many different ways to say it. Ultimately, if you are an idiot and do something like that, and you get caught, and you pay the price, it is no one elses fault but yours and you are, essentially, stuck with it.

Originally posted by sigung86
I think, Rant, you missed my point. Drink - Drive - Lose your license. End of story.

Apparently I did. So in spite of what you said earlier about how you thought people with DUI's are getting repeatedly "bumped" what you meant to say is you're glad to learn the system is hopelessly convoluted now and everyone from Judges to the DMV itself is frustrated that they don't have control anymore. And even non-impaired law abiding citizens that encounter what is most likely an unconstitutional "sobriety checkpoint" trap outside a restaurant designed to bolster county funds deserve to lose their license for life (in spite of what the law actually says) because of the .08 technicality and lobbyist "mad" environment where federal funds are held hostage unless the unreasonable demands of DC lawyers posing as "mothers" are met.

I see. Er, thanks for your... opinion. That's an interesting take. Not even MADD is that facist. They actually claim to want people to reform and earn their license back. Otherwise there's really no point in all the mandatory risk reduction re-education, psych evaluations and state monitored treatment is there? Plus there's no money in it.

You seem to think this is something beyond a mere business enterprise. It's not.

Originally posted by sigung86
I don't know how many different ways to say it.

I don't either, but I'll try. I understand your desire to proactively punish "future crimes." That's a disturbing populist trend in America right now and largely media driven. But where we're not seeing eye to eye is the absurdity of the current situation.

You seem to think people that officially lost their license forever are whining here. That's not the case. The complaint is a system of sticks and carrots, where the carrot is duct taped to the floor. If presented with a 3 year suspension and hoops X, Y and Z to jump through in order to regain your livelihood, then that's a contract. And it is the responsibility of the authority imposing the stick to honor their end of the bargain (the carrot) when all conditions are met. I'm saying not only do they frequently not honor it, the environment is so convoluted they can't even when they want to more than anything.

This is not a reasonable state response to someone that is legally qualified and OWED a driving license: "We know you're due and have done everything right, but we can't figure out how to work the computer for people that moved. Call back in two years." Then two years later: "Well it's more complicated now than ever. Sorry. Could you help us out by calling Judges, the Attorney General and MADD while you're at it. Start writing letters. Help us fix the system. We really don't know what we're doing here."

If what you were saying was the case, fine. Simply not having a license forever would be better anytime than a full time job as errand boy for the state of Georgia. But if they want people to keep jumping through hoops, there should be a resolution at some point. The problem is a national, federal level database being administered at the state level. These things do not work well together. At all. Especially when nobody is in charge. Not the state. Not the federal government. Not the Judges. Not the AG's. Nobody knows what to do anymore, but they all point to MADD as the source.

I'm against the sobriety checkpoints. I think it runs contrary to the Fourth Amendment. You're basically being searched without a warrant.

I've never been drunk a day in my life btw. And there are plenty of people who drive like complete nuts without being drunk. Not that I'm for driving drunk, mind you.

Muzz wrote:
Well, I can't say that I support drunk driving, BUT on the other hand I can't say that I support an orginization such as MADD. Being a Firefighter/Paramedic I see people who make the decision to drive drunk die, or become paralyzed, or smash mommy's and daddy's beamer around a telephone pole(I work in a college town.). People have the freedom to drink as much or as little as they deem fit. But they should have to pay the price for doing so. MADD may have been a good orginization at it's inception, but now it's overstepping it's boundries. I think that there should be more done to curb the current trends, I picked up a totally wasted 14 year old girl the other night who went to a party for the sole purpose of getting blasted. Well, she was taken off to some room after getting drunk and was sexually assaulted. Now that's a problem. If MADD was fighting things like that, ok, that fine with me. Plus people driving drunk and destroying their car is just job security for me. LOL. Peace Out. -Muzz

Eternal wrote:
Sh*t F*ck.
I hate this country is so #ing stupid with all their gay laws.
And i heard that new drinking laws where the might raise the drinking age to 24.
And they wonder why there is such a problem with drug!

I guess I'm in the same boat as Muzz is on this topic.
I'm sorry, but it's people like Eternal that give firefighters, paramedics, and cops job security. This is because they are the only people where they HAVE to scrape up your guts off the road because you were a drunken idiot. I myself have seen plenty of wrecks where the drunk killed theirself, someone else, or both him or someone. If you don't like this laws of this country Eternal, then I guess you're screwed buddy.

[edit on 10/5/2005 by gimmefootball400]

Just heard on windsor radio (canadian)

that MADD is agreeing to lower the alcohol level to 05!

Of course you would have to PAY a fine and lose your liscense for 45 days if it passed that level..

But hey, they care about you! It's an absurd thought that they just want your money!

*coughs*

Um, folks...Did ya know about this?

Debra Bolton spent months fighting a DUI charge. In D.C., a blood alcohol reading of .01 can result in arrest. (By Susan Biddle -- The Washington Post)

Single Glass of Wine Immerses D.C. Driver in Legal Battle


By Brigid Schulte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 12, 2005; Page A01

Debra Bolton had a glass of red wine with dinner. That's what she told the police officer who pulled her over. That's what the Intoxilyzer 5000 breath test indicated -- .03, comfortably below the legal limit.

She had been pulled over in Georgetown about 12:30 a.m. for driving without headlights. She apologized and explained that the parking attendant must have turned off her vehicle's automatic-light feature.

Bolton thought she might get a ticket. Instead, she was handcuffed, searched, arrested, put in a jail cell until 4:30 a.m. and charged with driving under the influence of alcohol.

Bolton, 45, an energy lawyer and single mother of two who lives in Alexandria, had just run into a little-known piece of D.C. law: In the District, a driver can be arrested with as little as .01 blood-alcohol content.

As D.C. police officer Dennis Fair, who arrested Bolton on May 15, put it in an interview recently: "If you get behind the wheel of a car with any measurable amount of alcohol, you will be dealt with in D.C. We have zero tolerance. . . . Anything above .01, we can arrest."

Neither the police department nor the attorney general's office keeps detailed records of how many people with low blood alcohol levels are arrested. But last year, according to police records, 321 people were arrested for driving under the influence with blood alcohol levels below the legal limit of .08. In 2003, 409 people were arrested.

Although low blood alcohol arrests have been made in other states in conjunction with dangerous driving, lawyers, prosecutors and advocates of drunken driving prevention said they knew of no place besides the District that had such a low threshold for routine DUI arrests. In Maryland and Virginia, as in other states, drivers generally are presumed not to be intoxicated if they test below .05. Nationwide, .08 is the legal limit -- meaning a driver is automatically presumed to be intoxicated.

Fair acknowledged that many people aren't aware of the District's policy. "But it is our law," he said. "If you don't know about it, then you're a victim of your own ignorance."

much, much more....

This has created quite the stir in DC....

Angry calls and e-mails.

D.C. Councilwoman Wants To Change Law On DUI Arrests

Now also consider the number of liquor licenses issued within the District of Columbia...You can even look them up here. Kinda makes it too risky to go to dinner there, don't ya think?

Oh, and I'd avoid using mouthwash in DC, as well...

Breath alcohol values following mouthwash use.

CONCLUSION--The decay of BrAVs following mouthwash use is sufficiently rapid that mouthwash use would not pose a realistic threat to the accuracy of blood alcohol determinations by breath analysis under normal circumstances. Use of mouthwash immediately prior to breath testing, as might occur in the car or workplace in a mistaken attempt to hide the smell of alcohol or other substances, may, however, significantly increase the measured BrAV.

Or any of these:

Some of the things that cause early "spikes" in the readout are menthol tobacco (smokeless), mints, lozenges, denture adhesive, lip balm, breath spray, recent dental work, asthma inhalers, and pepper spray...

In fact, it just may be safer not to visit the District of Columbia- ever!

Oh, and one last thought, I guess Bush is lucky he has a driver...



Bush Drinking Again?


[edit on 15-10-2005 by loam]

It would really not surprise me if Bush did start hittin' the jug of "Mountain Dew" again. it must take a real "smart" person to start drinking again.

I'm sorry Rant, I've never had a DUI and anyone who I know who has had one deserved it.

I was nearly killed twice by drunk drivers. You will get no sympathy here. Everytime I see a drunk weaving thru traffic I wish I had a cell phone. I would have reported them and this is a state(Ohio) that has enacted every M.A.D.D. suggested law.

I salute M.A.D.D.'s effort to rid the world of alcohol impaired drivers.

I'm sure when they have aircars you'll want a drunk aircar driver crashing into your house at 400 mph, right?

Originally posted by bodebliss
I'm sorry Rant, I've never had a DUI and anyone who I know who has had one deserved it.

Read the story loam posted right above yours. .01 is not "deserved it" anymore than people stopped (mosly likely unconstitutionally) at revenue roadblocks, doing NOTHING wrong, but blowing .05, .06, .07, 0.8 or even .09 for some people. How can you NOT be drunk one year at .09 but drunk the next because they keep changing the law?

I was nearly killed twice by drunk drivers. You will get no sympathy here.

I was neither one of them.

Everytime I see a drunk weaving thru traffic I wish I had a cell phone. I would have reported them and this is a state(Ohio) that has enacted every M.A.D.D. suggested law.

I'd report them too. Not talking about dangerous drivers.

I salute M.A.D.D.'s effort to rid the world of alcohol impaired drivers.

They don't rid the world of anything. They make "impaired" drivers. What is legal today, will be illegal tomorrow if MADD gets it's way. It lobbies to arrest Americans. That's all it does now. And get paid of course.