Peter proved that Jesus was just a man

reply to post by amillion2juan


"WHO BELIEVES IN ME WILL BE LIKE ME".

All the Christic (not "Christian") Gnosis is bounded therein.

Christ aims to make a "Nation of Christs" ( > Messiah's > a people of Spiritual Kings), as Moses tried to found a "Nation of priests".

Le reste est littérature.

Where does it ever say in the Bible that Jesus was more than a man until he was resurrected? The whole point was that he was a man who had the same temptations, lusts, and doubts that we do.

Originally posted by Daz3d-n-Confus3d
Where does it ever say in the Bible that Jesus was more than a man until he was resurrected? The whole point was that he was a man who had the same temptations, lusts, and doubts that we do.

You forgot, 'yet was without sin'.

That's the difference between Messiah and the rest of us. That and all the miracles of course.

reply to post by resistor


That was part of my point, as well as the suffering and death bit. Was Jesus without sin because he was Son of God, or was was he without sin despite being Son of Man? Because if it is the first, then again it is a pretty useless power, and if it is the second, then any person can theoretically be without sin.

I have heard it said that Jesus, being the Son of God, had an unfair advantage in being able to be without sin. This is true, He had an unfair advantage. He was the only one who would, could, and did live a sin free life on behalf of you and me.

Is it useless? Why did He do it?

God is just. He is perfect, and created us that we could walk with Him. When we turned away from Him and chose to walk our own way, He honored that, but there were consequences to our decision. Because the wages of sin is death, forgiveness of that sin came at a cost of spilled blood. This is found throughout the Old Testament where animal sacrifices of perfect, unblemished animals had to be made in atonement of transgressions against God. This was justice, the justice system God's justice required to reconcile us to Him despite our turning away.

The animals, however, were only temporary. Because they didn't have a say in their not being blemished, it could only go so far. Humanity needed a savior, a perfect sacrifice to reconcile us with our creator for eternity. This is why Christ had to come, and this is why Christ had to choose to be blameless.

Did He have an unfair advantage in being God? Heck yeah He did! Does that make the sacrifice any less? Not at all. If you were going to trial for a multiple murder of which you were innocent, would you forgo a lawyer because a lawyer has an unfair advantage compared to Joe Blow off the street in regards to law and presenting a case, or would you seek the best lawyer you could possibly find, one you believe to be far better than the attorney trying the case? If that amazing lawyer was well to do growing up, coming from a family of lawyers, and had law and trials in his blood, would that make his "powers" useless?

Christ had to be God because God was the only one capable of resisting Satan from cradle to tomb. God chose to send His only son because He wants to spend eternity with us, and that is the only way He can justly reconcile us back to Him permanently. Useless? Not at all!

reply to post by junglejake


Hey jake! I'll not go into the other stuff, because it moves faar away from being on topic, but I don't really think your analogy applies. It is more like the lawyer has inside knowledge of the judge, and is secretly friends with most of the jury. Would a man on trial for murder pick him? Of course! That doesn't make it fair, though, nor does it make it 'justice'.

This means that Jesus COULD NOT have sinned. All that 'temptation' was nonsense, because Jesus was God. How on earth can the devil presume to be able to tempt God? Despite this, you could say that Jesus was also purely man, so the temptation might have been effective. But if Jesus was purely man, then that means that a man can do the same!

According to the Christian doctrine, man is on trial here, because of what Adam did at the beginning (and, according to Christianity, in extension, what man is sullied with because of this). According to Christianity, if a man was born, lived without sin, and died in sacrifice through no fault of his own, this would alleviate the rest of humanity from sin. If God is required for this, then why have all the rigmarole in the first place? God could've done one of two things:

* Send the triune 'Jesus' part of himself to live life on earth as a man without sin, die through no fault of his own, with immense suffering and then come back to life (hence nullifying the 'sacrifice' part of the deal) and ascend to heaven, and through this given humanity a chance to salvation through believing in this sacrifice.

* God could've said (or sent someone who'd say that He said) "Hey, humanity, I forgive you. Believe in me and live your life doing good deeds. Like I absolved Abraham from sacrificing his son, so I absolve you (or Myself) from needing to kill anybody or appease me with sinless blood".

After all, God is the infinite, the ultimate, the total source of mercy, right? Justice tempered with mercy.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by babloyi]

This is easy anyway. We know what god looks like (a man), we know that the angels must have been at least human enough, as a tiger is to a lion (successful breeding + gigantism, check "liger" on wikipedia), to produce living offspring. We know they were human enough to be able to clone, ergo the numerous "created from the blood of x" myths. We know they looked like men (any biblical account of a non-israelite referencing an angel says something like "bring out those men, that we might know them").

This says a few things about the Heavenly array: They were human enough to disobey god and successfully breed with humans. They were human enough to be corrected (Lot before S&G is destroyed suggests he flee to a town, with which the angels were obviously not familiar).

This says to me, the angels were...human. And if I had to go out on a limb, I'd say God was too.

The Word revealed to Moses is not a static "historical" one, it is a revelation for all those who seek it, evolving, we can never understand it all, just get occasional glimpses of the Lord

Where is the sacrifice if you came back to life?

...........................let someone kill u when u don't have too, let them nail u to a cross & see how u go....then while ur up there tell me ur not being sacrificed....unreal.

reply to post by dave7


Hey Dave! It has already been done before (many, many times), and I still don't see it as a sacrifice. Not sure if I understand your point. Who is the sacrifice to? What is the sacrifice for?

Bab the sacrifice is UR LIFE...( He suffered & died a horrible painful death).....& He did it for His/our Father(GOD) to pay for the debt. WE inherited from our dumb ancestors...(original sin/adam & eve....YES they were REAL)...He didn't have to...He could & can do ANYTHING...He did it because that was the sacrifice His DAD decided on... to SHOW the world how much He loves us...then AFTER our debt. was payed by Jesus BLOOD...that was the END of the good old sacrifice days...a NEW DEAL then came into being....the DEAL of FAITH....now in order to get to hang out with our DAD...all we have to do is get our HUGE egos & SELF importance out of the way & learn a bit of HUMILITY...& ASK that great ONE if He would please have pity on us so we can get to know Him....bro if ur gunna have a buddy...GOD is not a bad choice....He's a pretty big dude & guess what?.....He really loves us & wants to be friends.........wouldn't u want to be friends with ur kids?.....how would u feel if they refused to talk with u?...& worse, pretended u didn't even exist....but the cruncher is this = ....it all works of FAITH & TRUST in the UNSEEN.....bro my life has really changed for the better...even though Father is super DISCREET...He lets us know in so many ways just how much he loves us & is there for us....before the new FAITH deal back in the OT days, our ancestor had Father in their face with miracle after miracle & they still didn't trust him...NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED except now if u want PROOF that GOD is actually there, u wont get it...now its a FAITH deal....bro it's His dream after all...He is Perfect unlike us...& all powerful, all wise & knowing...what idiot is gunna argue with HIM....fortunately He is also incredibly FORGIVING....we are just a bunch of self centered spoilt brats....naughty little KIDS compared to this GREAT ONE....Naturally like all Parents, He wants us to love Him back....so thats why He gave us FREE WILL....we get to choose if we want to be in the LIGHT or the DARK....u can't force someone to love u....it has to be by FREE WILL....but what He does if He has pity on u, is He 'FILLS U UP' with a tiny sample of His love...which is a truely wonderful experience...He blesses u with His Holy Spirit....& ur life changes for the better in a BIG way....u come outa the darkness & into the light bro....i'm so greatful to Him its not funny....& i really love Him.........& it was only done 'ONCE' by Jesus...when He said 'FOLLOW ME' He meant follow His examples He showed us....but NOT sacrificing ur life & coming back to life...the DEBT is already paid.....that was His job not ours....however MOST dont realize that we CAN do the things jesus did, all those miracles, if we BELIEVE without any DOUBT....thats the tricky bit....we can do even greater things than Jesus did....if we Believe.....most people who call themselves Christains don't actually believe this....i don't call myself a christain because that word has been spoilt/corrupted by a hellova lot of hypocrites & fakes.......& i don't have anything to do with any religions either because they are all Humans ideas not Father....in fact they were started by Lucifer to keep people 'AWAY' from Father & to stop them reaching their FULL potential of following Jesus examples...they follow humans instead........GB

[edit on 24-11-2007 by dave7]

reply to post by dave7


Hey again, Dave!

Despite the difficulty of reading your post , I agree with much of what you said, especially this bit:

Originally posted by dave7
fortunately He is also incredibly FORGIVING

See, I don't think an incredibly forgiving God would require a human sacrifice of blood. I don't think an incredibly forgiving God would require any sort of sacrifice of blood. To me, sacrificing living creatures to God seems to be a barbaric concept, more fitting with backward bygone cultures. God doesn't need blood. An omnipotent God wouldn't need anything.

Man makes a mistake, and sincerely asks for forgiveness, shouldn't that be enough? It should, because fortunately He is also incredibly FORGIVING. I also don't think that sin can be inherited, transferred, sold, bought, given or taken. A person would solely and only be responsible for the wrongs that they committed, and no other. Why should I be responsible for something Adam did near the beginning of time? Why should Jesus be responsible for something I did nearly 2000 years later? I'd think that'd be excessively unfair- the opposite of God.

IF an omnipotent God DID require a sacrifice to allow us back into His grace, it would have to be a proper sacrifice. A sacrifice is "The surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim". What would have to be surrendered/destroyed? Somebody's life (Someone said it was actually the torture and pain endured that was the sacrifice. I think the story of Christ would be even weirder if after he was tortured, he escaped and said "Because I was tortured, I have freed all humanity from sin!". Even if this is true, the following point still applies). Who's life should be sacrificed? Someone who didn't commit any sin. Now, what kind of person would not commit any sin? A person who has been in the way of God their entire life. A person who was tempted again and again, but overcame the temptation. Certainly not a person who had an unfair advantage over other people (in that they were supernaturally resistant to sinning). If they had an unfair advantage, then it wouldn't be a proper sacrifice.

IF an omnipotent God DID require a sacrifice to allow us back into His grace, it would have to be a proper sacrifice.

You might want to do a bit more background reading on soteriology. The simple "sacrifice in atonement" theory is only one of many ways that Christians have understood the function of the Christ.

Start with these (which link to further reading):
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

You should also read up on the Eastern Orthodox "Incarnation-centric" approach, which rejects the "satisfaction" atonement view:

en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers.

[edit on 24-11-2007 by d60944]

what WE think & what Father KNOWS may not be the same....its HIS dream we're in, having our own dream.....Jesus did become a man, he did have the same choice/FREE WILL we have been given, He did it for US to show us HOW MUCH HE LOVED US.....His suffering was REAL, there was no 'unfair' advantage in that....He practiced what He preached, 'Turn the other cheek'...would have been much easier to have all those cruel bastards just drop dead....He also did it to prove WHO He was, by coming back to life....afterall He was bringing others back to life who had died....but they were so dumb, they forgot or didn't believe that...They prob. just wanted 'PROOF'...wanted him to put on a big 'show' for them, to satify their huge egos...miracle after miracle & still they didn't BELIEVE....it was all about them/SELF...that is what 'sin' is, disobedience to LOVE )......how many parents have suffered in order to help their kids....worked their butts off & got home tired & in pain...what Jesus did helped us weather u understand sacrifice or not...weather GOD is living up to UR standards or not........& what this great one decides to do, WILL BE DONE.....yes incredably forgiving....but don't forget 'Hard' LOVE as well....if ur kids are doing horrible things to eachother & running amuck & generally wrecking the joint....u may have to exercise HARD LOVE to stop them hurting eachother.......(that doesn't mean murder the kids folks.....also if u remember the Roman occupying dictator of that time wanted to let Jesus go, because He had done nothing wrong under their laws....it was our dumb ancestors that wanted Jesus blood (edged on by the priests & pharisees who had been shown up as fakes by Jesus)....so they were given what they wanted........thats LOVE...........it was a very powerful show of LOVE........thats our DAD for u...............GB

[edit on 24-11-2007 by dave7]