9/11 Thinking from t'other side of the box

Hi All,

I've been reading stuff here for a long time but haven't really posted so I hope it is OK to start this.
I have to admit that I am not up-to-date on all of the 9/11 threads so if this idea is already out there please accept my apologies and point me in the right direction!

I have seen films such as farenheit 9/11 and the 9/11 conspiracies. I have also read around a bit, and talked to a tonne of people with different ideas.

In my mind there appears to be less evidence supporting Al Qaeda as the perpetrators than there does supporting the U.S. government. So what I'm interested to know is, how much evidence is there that actually corroborates the official story?

What do we actually know, and what have we been fed, which tells us that Al Qaeda carried out the attacks.

For example, in the "9/11 conspiracies" video, it is said that many of the "Named hijakers" are alive. There are passenger lists which show no "arab" names and are often used as "evidence" yet the lists are not complete - www.cnn.com... - these are "victim" lists... so who else had a ticket?

How do we know for certain that the hijackers were on the plane, and if many of those named are still alive, who did do the hijacking?

What is all the nonsense about passports being "found" at crash sites where no bodies or plane wreckage were found?

What about the Bin Laden confession, can we prove it was really Bin Laden?

What other evidence is there linking Al Qaeda?? In fact, let us imagine that Al Qaeda is on trial in America charged wtih the 9/11 attacks. What evidence would America be using to prove that they did it? And even more interestingly, what evidence would Al Qaeda be using to prove that they couldn't possibly have done it? (Not arguments that America did it, just that Al Qaeda didn't)

I feel that this is the best way to prove that Al Qaeda didn't do it, and thus move on to find out who did...I'm interested to see evidence (as good as online evidence gets that is), not opinions please?



[edit on 13-11-2007 by ErisDS]

Evidence that corroborates the official story are the phone calls from the airplanes, footage from inside the airport of the hijackers boarding the aircraft, Bin Laden's confession tape, and the passports.

The phone calls are suspicious to say the least. They don't go into great detail of what the hijackers look like. They don't really tell us anything. And then there's the infamous "Hi mom, it's Mark Bingham!" tape.

When you question the validity of the phone calls, you're bashed for disrespecting the family members and victims. But I see it as questioning everything.

Murder investigators question and suspect family members when someone is murdered, and they cut open the dead naked body on a nasty table, and that's just considered part of the process.

But questioning phone calls when voice morphing technology is all too real is considered taboo. Seems ignorant to me.

The footage of the hijackers boarding the aircraft are grainy and we're led to just assume that's who they say it is. We don't see what airplane they get on. We don't see them with a box cutter. Nothing. To some, these may be picky details, but in a court of law, you need every last detail. You can't just assume.

Bin Laden's confession tape seems weird, especially considering CNN posted an article six days after 9/11 titled "Bin Laden says he wasn't behind attacks"

Why would he deny involvement? Or, even better, why would he deny involvement, but then make a video of himself claiming responsibility?

The passports are weird also. We're supposed to believe that the plane disintegrated at the Pentagon and in Shanksville, but these paper passports survived. How that happens is beyond me.

As for the hijackers being alive, that story has been twisted by both sides. Official story believers say that the hijackers stole the ID's of the people that have turned up alive.

But that would basically mean the hijackers and the people alive would have to have the same name and look the same, because our government hasn't changed the official list and the pictures associated with the "hijackers" despite these people who "had their ID stolen" turning up alive.

That would also mean they would both have to have the same DNA, because the dead hijackers DNA could be easily compared to those that are alive.

So basically what we're led to believe is the hijackers stole the ID's of people they had the same name, same looks, and same DNA of. Don't know about you, but that seems a little out there.

And where did they get the DNA samples to compare to the dead hijackers to identify them? You don't just put DNA into a computer and it gives you a name. They had the DNA, names, pictures, everything, fairly quickly.

In my opinion, there's far more evidence linking the US Government to this than there is Al Qaeda. Any evidence linking Al Qaeda would have to come before the planes struck their targets, i.e. footage of the hijackers, phone calls etc., but again, with the footage and phone calls available, it doesn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt, in my opinion. The only evidence that could really come after the event is a confession, but Bin Laden says he wasn't involved.

Everything seems to point towards a US Government cover up. The NORAD drills that just happened to coincide with the attacks. The put options. Not showing the Pentagon crash footage. The suspicious collapse of WTC7. The not fully explained collapses of the Twin Towers. John O'Neill. As well as other numerological and symbolic dates, events, announcements etc. pre-9/11, if you believe in that sort of stuff.

At the very least, they're not giving us the full story. There's no reason not to give the full story if you had nothing to do with it.

I was aware of and agree with pretty much everything you have said, which is exactly what I was wondering about. I figured there had to be some big piece of evidence I was missing somewhere that pointed to Al Qaeda for it to be the official story... but no there really isn't any "hard and fast proof".

Two things I hadn't heard was them matching the DNA of the hackers to the bodies? What bodies... I didn't think there were any in pennsylvania.. and I didn't see enough wreckage for bodies at the pentagon either??
Do you have a link to something about them matching DNA?

I agree with you totally about them not changing their story even when it was proven that many of the "named hijackers" were found alive... it's almost like they couldn't be bothered to argue because they did the job "well enough".

When explaining the "conspiracy theories" to one of my friends, he asked... "Why on earth didn't they do a better job of it?" And the answer to that is... they did a good enough job, the whole world believes that on 9/11 some terrorists crashed planes into various building in the US. Doesn't matter if your on the side of the US or the Terrorists or if you are neutral... thats what people think. Except for the few of us that question it... and we're just "disrespectful", "crazy", "attention seeking" etc...

I'm gonna go read up on John O'Neill cos I missed that one.

In a court of law the "official story" wouldn't last two minutes...

Have a look at the 9/11 Coincidences documentary. I really think its one of the best ones out there.

Originally posted by ErisDS
I figured there had to be some big piece of evidence I was missing somewhere that pointed to Al Qaeda for it to be the official story... but no there really isn't any "hard and fast proof".

Nope, there's just a lot of borderline "facts" and pseudo-science that holds up simply because of how devastating the whole attack was. People fill in the blanks with assumptions and half truths and are too frightened to think logically.

That's the benefit of the whole psychological side of 9/11. A lot of people aren't even able to see how 9/11 was more of a psychological operation than anything else.

Originally posted by ErisDS
Do you have a link to something about them matching DNA?

I read somewhere that they matched the DNA. Of course, I don't believe that, so I didn't remember the site. If I find it, I'll post it. But it seems like bs to me. They provided no proof, just said it was tested.

Originally posted by ErisDS
I'm gonna go read up on John O'Neill cos I missed that one.

Yeah, it's a very interesting story to look up. Basically, John O'Neill was an FBI anti-terrorism expert. He was basically the world's expert on Al Qaeda. A lot of his investigations were interrupted. He wasn't really liked by "them". He was getting close to uncovering imminent Al Qaeda plots when he resigned because of all the interference in July 2001, I believe it was.

The spooky part is John O'Neill got a job as head of security at the World Trade Center complex. His first day on the job was September 10, 2001. The next day...dead.

Do look in to it. It's quite interesting. Also, you can watch "Who Killed John O'Neill?" It's a good video with a lot of information.

There is no publicly available evidence. It's all classified...ehem or it doesn't exist, because it would point the paper trail back towards the same offices denying us the evidence. With what little clues we have of what really happened, be it official story "clues", or real clues... they both make it stink to high heaven in here of a giant cover-up. Not a giant OOPS, like if two people are struggling and the gun accidentally goes off... but more like a calculated pre-meditated cold blooded bullet to the brain of this nation of half-wits. The nation survived, but with severe brain damage... and that's the way uh huh uh huh They like it uh huh uh huh.

For example, in the "9/11 conspiracies" video, it is said that many of the "Named hijakers" are alive.

I wonder what the BBC has to say about the original story so often cited as "proof" hijackers are still alive....

www.bbc.co.uk...

Saudi Arabia accepts the identities of the hijackers....

www.usatoday.com...

(there are plenty of other sources....)

Eris, is your real name unique? No one else in the world has the same name? In my town alone, there are a dozen men that share my same first and last name, three of which also have the same middle initial. Do you think that this does not happen in the Arab world? The nineteen men named by the FBI, hijacked those planes and crashed them that day PERIOD.

What is all the nonsense about passports being "found" at crash sites where no bodies or plane wreckage were found?

and driver's licenses, credit cards, wallets etc.....and at each crash site, human remains and plane wreckage were found.

Flight 93....

There was so much evidence of a plane crash lying around that FBI employees and crash investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) spent thirteen days recovering the wreckage. The heaviest piece of wreckage that was found, part of an engine, weighed almost a ton

www.spiegel.de...

And what happened afterwards....

Moreover, there was nothing particularly mysterious about the subsequent handling of the wreckage. For the duration of the investigation, the remains of the jet were placed under an FBI guard. Once the investigators had completed their search for evidence, the standard procedure following a plane crash was followed. The parts were returned to the owner of the aircraft. In the case of the United Airlines Boeing, the owner was the airline's insurance company, the United States Aircraft Insurance Group (USAIG), which is headquartered in New York. USAIG still owns the physical reminders of this murderous event.

Of course you can also go here to see a few photos of items recovered from Flight 93..

www.rcfp.org...

How do we know for certain that the hijackers were on the plane, and if many of those named are still alive, who did do the hijacking?

As referenced above, the nineteen terrorists, hijacked the planes that day and are dead.

I have seen films such as farenheit 9/11

Ah yes, the classic piece of BS from Mr. Moore, now, try watching FahrenHYPE 9/11 to see Mr. Moore's movie addressed.

The phone calls are suspicious to say the least. They don't go into great detail of what the hijackers look like. They don't really tell us anything. And then there's the infamous "Hi mom, it's Mark Bingham!" tape

In several cases, the phone calls gave the seats and names from the manifests that were onboard the jets. Now, if im onboard a hijacked jet, Im not going to worry about a detailed description, im going to relay the facts about whats going on and the names of the perps that I have....which is what the flight attendants did.....

The "infamous" Mark Bingham tape......despite all of his family, friends and coworkers who have said that Mr. Bingham NORMALLY opened a phone call like that.....we have conspiracy theorists who try to use that as proof that something funny was going on.

But questioning phone calls when voice morphing technology is all too real is considered taboo.

Nah, not taboo, just not researched well enough. At least two of the passengers who made phone calls that day were not scheduled on those flights. They showed up at the airport early and were able to get on earlier flights. So, in a span of an hour or two, you think the "bad guys" found out their identities, found enough samples of their voices to use to create messages from them that were good enough to fool their families and then put those calls into play.

The footage of the hijackers boarding the aircraft are grainy and we're led to just assume that's who they say it is. We don't see what airplane they get on.

Youre right, the footage is grainy.....but, then you have the ticketing agents, boarding agents, security personell at the airports who confirmed who boarded what flights........

The passports are weird also. We're supposed to believe that the plane disintegrated at the Pentagon and in Shanksville, but these paper passports survived. How that happens is beyond me.

Well considering the plane wreckage left behind, the human remains, seat cushions, life preservers, seat belts, credit cards, drivers licenses etc...why is it so hard to believe that a passport survived? I mean, flipping VIDEO tapes survived the Shuttle Columbia's disintegration.....

The put options

So, do some research into the airlines and the history of put options that year. I mean, from the stack of bad news that AA released the last week of August/first week of September 2001, IF I were an investor, I would have been betting that the stock was going to take a hit.

It really isnt that hard to find the information to lay waste to the conspiracy theories...if you look.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi



You covered a lot of good points there.

One thing I would add that really convinced me was this:

You can have an object fall to the ground at the speed of gravity, or you can have an object fall to the ground slowly, smashing something up along the way. But not both at the same time.

Either the building was crushed by falling debris, slowing the debris down, or it was already in pieces and collapsed quickly.

Only one way the building could collapse so fast: something took it apart. We know it wasn't the energy of the fall, because if we took energy away from the fall to tear the building up, then the fall would happen more slowly. It didn't.

Physics tells all.

reply to post by Copernicus


Argh... I need to clear that one up. The video i was referring to was the "9/11 Coincidences". I keep getting confused and calling it the "9/11 conspiracies" for quite obvious reasons!

Check your thread on the video and you'll see I replied and that my copy of the DVD came from an interesting source.

To everyone else, I'll reply later gotta go right now!

The "infamous" Mark Bingham tape......despite all of his family, friends and coworkers who have said that Mr. Bingham NORMALLY opened a phone call like that.....we have conspiracy theorists who try to use that as proof that something funny was going on.

Add to that his mother wasn't home - she was at her brothers house
Wonder how MIB (men in black) figured out where she was and called
her there......

At the Mossauoi trial the FBI testified that there were NO completed calls from the plane. Barbara olsons story from Ted is a lie. According to the trial transcripts, the FBI agents testified that there were two attempts made at calls from that flight , NEITHER of which were completed!! And, the one Ted says he took the FBI says lasted ZERO seconds and was ' not connected '.

So the FBI is saying the stories about the calls were all lies, but the mainstream media stayed away from this fact totally, of course. It is like the Norman Mineta testimoney: A bombshell piece of evidence that no one ever asks the people involved about at all. Why has NO ONE, not ONE reported asked Cheney this: " Mr. Vice Presidant, what exactly did you mean when you told the young officer what you did in the bunker? What was the ' order ' that he wanted to know about still standing? "

Can you imagine the lies and squirming and evasions he would launch into? I bet that old devil would have a heart attack right on the spot and begin his slated journey to the infernal realms !! No wonder the media stays away from the real meat of the matter..they KNOW that there are NO good answers that can do anything except convict the perps, the Neocon gang.

originally posted by eyewitness 86
At the Mossauoi trial the FBI testified that there were NO completed calls from the plane. Barbara olsons story from Ted is a lie. According to the trial transcripts, the FBI agents testified that there were two attempts made at calls from that flight , NEITHER of which were completed!! And, the one Ted says he took the FBI says lasted ZERO seconds and was ' not connected '.

Do you have a link?