So does water contain memory or not? 2 opposing scientific views...

I have discussed the possibilty of water having celular memory with many people ever since the whole quantum physics double slit experiment came out, was linked to "The Secret" movie about manifesting, which was then liked to the works of a Dr. Emoto who showed that water does have memory and is impacted by our consciousness, music, and other factors.

Well, since then science has labled emoto's work as psuedo-science and yet there are about a dozen, if not more, credible and respected scientists that do believe this aspect of water does sceintifically exist....of which some of the findings were published in respectable scientific journals, recanted, republished, and the battle continues:

www.normanallan.com...

So my question is where do you guys stand on this topic? If this is true, it has some of the biggest implication in the qunatum world and could be one of the biggest scientific shifts in our modern day.

B.S. is an appropriate acronym!

[edit on 1-11-2007 by NRen2k5]

I think when certain music or sounds play to the water, it's not the waters "feelings", but the particles in it that are moved or changed because of sound waves.

NRen2k5,
I suggest you read the link, because what you claim to be BS, was actually upheld and published scientifically.

All water is basically someone's urine from upstream. The glass of cool clear water, you hold in your hand, was in someone's bladder maybe just a few days ago.

Memorize on that.

I'm sure a government grant was involved with this somehow....

I knew this guy, right? He did a lot of drugs and wasn't interested in responsibility, your average young white mail i guess. He joined the Navy back in 1999 after he got his girlfriend pregnant, and spend the next five years on a nuclear sub in the Pacific. After he got out, he stayed in Hawaii for a couple of years. He recently moved back and came over for a bit a couple of months ago. He brought his own water in a clear plastic bottle labeled "love" and talked to it.

Of course, i thought this was strange at first. He gave me Emoto's book and i read most of it. Interesting stuff, i can see how it could be considered pseudo-science since it's way off the reservation in terms of traditional science and experimentation. One of the main problems i had was the claim that water formed more "beautiful" crystals when appealed to certain types of music, etc. during freezing. I started to lose interest there because i couldn't get over the fact that beautiful is different for everyone else, and the word has no place in scientific observation.

Sorry. Cosmic dust in plasma form has shown the ability to spontaneously organize itself into a double-helix which becomes a "living" inorganic system. It possesses the ability of memory. Perhaps water can follow this same course of action under certain circumstances. But we shouldn't start listening for the cries of the ocean just yet.

Maybe there is a justification for what really is beautiful and what isnt.

For example, if your spiritually awakened and enlightened you think Bethoven's music is beautiful.

But when your drunk, coked up, and puking all over the chick your raping, you Love the Deacide or that new satanic group's single.

I'm sure in the overall picture of this Universe, there have to be absolute answers regardless of the eye of the beholder.

Originally posted by dominicus
NRen2k5,
I suggest you read the link, because what you claim to be BS, was actually upheld and published scientifically.

And it’s quackery.

Wikipedia to the rescue!

Originally posted by NRen2k5
And it’s quackery.

And Norman Allen, Ph.D, is a doctor of... go take a look. It's priceless.

Some banana-fingered graduated student contaminates a sample and he thinks the Revelation is at hand.

[edit on 2-11-2007 by Astyanax]

Oh yeah… how did I miss that?

He calls himself a “doctor of alternative medicine,” but he was educated in chiropractic and got his PhD in neuroscience.

That’s kinda like training as a plumber and then an electrician, then telling people you’re an automobile mechanic, don’t ya think?

Spirit Music

Originally posted by dominicus
For example, if your spiritually awakened and enlightened you think Bethoven's music is beautiful.

Beethoven was a drunk. He got into fights. He was a sloppy emotional mess. He became a fan of Napoleon and wrote a symphony inspired by him, then fell out of love with his hero and scratched off the dedication on the title page. He once wrote a string quartet with the intention of evoking the image of 'my brother weeping over my grave'. He wrote great music (I'm a fan myself, as you can probably tell), but insisted on premièring his piano sonatas and, heaven help us, concertos with himself on piano, deaf as a post and hammering for all he was worth and ruining the effect. His music is beyond great but any spiritual insight you see in it is what you put there yourself.

As for Satanic rock bands, they're not my cup of tea, but real bands don't come more Satanic than Led Zeppelin, at least if you read their press. Well, Achilles' Last Stand starts from the same abrupt, telegraphic kind of motif as Beethoven's famous Fifth Symphony - a tiny cluster of notes without any obvious melodic possibiities - and builds this vast, complex, totally integral and satisfying musical structure around it - a bit like the Fifth, though in a completely different ballpark. Led Zeppelin's music can be pretty uplifting too - I'll never forget a particular drive, a cool summer's day, an open car in the English countryside - but any 'spiritual' quality, devilish or divine, that comes out of it is there because you, the listener, put it in.

I'm sure in the overall picture of this Universe, there have to be absolute answers regardless of the eye of the beholder.

We agree on this. There are absolute answers. But they pertain to absolute things. Musical taste - any taste - is not one of those things. It has been said many times, in many different ways: De gustibus non est disputandum.

Taping messages to bottles and then freezing the water to see what crystals you get and then saying some are beautiful and some are not..

This seems a little bit fuzzy to me.

the page I read about Mr Emoto
First he types onto the paper with a word processor, the names/phrases. He's saying that a name itself has power. You can't just say Hitler and assume it has this negative 'energy'. "You Make Me Sick, I Will Kill You" - I'd imagine for anything to have any type of effect you would have to actually feel this emotion in order to transfer it.
So somehow the emotion, or related emotion is magically transferred through the keys of his word processor into the ink and stored on the paper. Then the paper, mystically storing this information, manages to transfer the vibe through the glass bottle and into the water overnight so the water will remember it. Then the water storing this emotion is frozen and the crystals forming, because the water was feeling sad or angry, or really happy, are able to arrange themselves into arbitrary formations.

The world is an ever changing place filled with unknown wonders and mystery, and who am I to say this is bull crap? But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Originally posted by NRen2k5
That’s kinda like training as a plumber and then an electrician, then telling people you’re an automobile mechanic, don’t ya think?

I was thinking almost the same thing.

Originally posted by MrDead


The world is an ever changing place filled with unknown wonders and mystery, and who am I to say this is bull crap? But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I'll go on record and state plainly that it is all BS.

Jacques Benveniste was the scientist who came up with this ridiculous theory that water retained a memory of the structure of the homeopathic substance that has been diluted out of existence. His work and that of his so called team was thoroughly discredited by a team of investigators who attempted a replication of the study that was discussed in Nature magazine 1988.

br.geocities.com...

One interesting thing that anyone who is leaning toward believing this homeopathic tripe should consider:

Neither Benveniste nor any other advocate of the memory-of-water speculation have explained how water is so selective in its memory that it has forgotten all the other billions of substances its molecules have been in contact with over the millennia. One wonders in vain how water remembers only the molecules the homeopath has introduced at some point in the water's history and forgets all those trips down the toilet bowel, etc.

Benveniste even went on to make claims that a homeopathic solution's biological activity can be digitally recorded, stored on a hard drive, sent over the Internet, and transferred to water at the receiving end.
Need I say more?

You can learn a lot more about this here:
skepdic.com...

[edit on 2-11-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 2-11-2007 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by MrDead
First he types onto the paper with a word processor, the names/phrases. He's saying that a name itself has power. You can't just say Hitler and assume it has this negative 'energy'. "You Make Me Sick, I Will Kill You" - I'd imagine for anything to have any type of effect you would have to actually feel this emotion in order to transfer it.
So somehow the emotion, or related emotion is magically transferred through the keys of his word processor into the ink and stored on the paper. Then the paper, mystically storing this information, manages to transfer the vibe through the glass bottle and into the water overnight so the water will remember it. Then the water storing this emotion is frozen and the crystals forming, because the water was feeling sad or angry, or really happy, are able to arrange themselves into arbitrary formations.

If this were at all possible, it wouldn't be the words themselves that spurned some sort of influence over the molecules of the water. It would be the conscious thought behind those words that would influence physical reality on a quantum scale, ultimately changing the water. It would be interesting to see the results of an experiment with a machine that randomly prints out words as opposed to a group with thought behind the words.

I am not sure if water contains memory, it certainly does have the capacity to hold on to a certain geometrical shape in its own intermolecular structure.
this is done primarily through "Strong" hydrogen bonding, first discovered by linus pauling, and proved to be true at the quantum level in 1998. cant find the link at the moment.
of course there is dr. emoto and many others as well.
This strong Hydrogen covalent bond is formed by the so called Gluons at the quantum level and some others. the structuring of the shapes in water is given NMR, which stands for nuclear magnetic resonance.

in other words

Nuclear positions of the atoms whithin this intermolecular structure are affected by Magnetically charged(would be one way to put it), or magnetically oriented waves. these are often construed as Photonic, phononic waves, and or Electromagnetic waves.

however water by itself would very rarely have this ability, it takes Dipolar molecules to convert Phonon waves into actual Ionized charges.
(in the world of "known Science")

So yes music does affect it, EM waves do and Photon emitting equipment does. in terms of waves it is the frequency set at a certain level which allows for it to happen.

there other various methods, and it has been proven that natural water has better structuring abilities than processed water. it has also been proven that with prayer(from truly believing people) are able to structure water as well, achieving unique PH levels. If i am not mistaken there is some place in turkey or at least in the mediterranean that does this. they even ship internationalyl.

it is important to note that Hydrogen has the unique ability to form into helium(noble gas), which mathematically speaking should wieghs just as much H2.
yet H2 is not the same as helium.

while H2 weighs approximately = (RAM)Relative Atomic mass of 2 with 2 protons.
Helium as well with 2 protons weighs 4 RAM.

in order to cover up this tiny misdeed in nature Chemists came up with the so called Deuterium. which explains the odd difference between the 2.

Those atoms which fall under the same circumstances(butnot with the magnitude with which hydrogen does) are called Isotopes.

today Deuterium theory has advanced and has been packed with loads of explanations. in short what deuterium really is, is nothing but a Magnetic difference between the Hydrogen and Helium atoms.
Meaning Matter and energy on the quantum level are stored Magnetically(note that i have not said Electromagnetically, and note that Ions have practically nothing to do with the point im trying to put across).





[edit on 4-11-2007 by savageseb]

[edit on 4-11-2007 by savageseb]

I remember reading somewhere, God only knows where, water singing his praises in a babbling brook in heaven.

Originally posted by hinky
All water is basically someone's urine from upstream. The glass of cool clear water, you hold in your hand, was in someone's bladder maybe just a few days ago.

Memorize on that.

I'm sure a government grant was involved with this somehow....

lol I'm very low brow so I always enjoy the comments that bring everbody back down to reality

A drop or two of science

I am not sure if water contains memory, it certainly does have the capacity to hold on to a certain geometrical shape in its own intermolecular structure. This is done primarily through "Strong" hydrogen bonding, first discovered by linus pauling, and proved to be true at the quantum level in 1998. cant find the link at the moment.

Here's a Science Daily article about it.

You will see, as you read through it, that you have misremembered somewhat.

Linus Pauling did not discover the hydrogen bond. The hydrogen bond, which is what holds water molecules together, had long been known to exist. What Pauling did was theorize (not 'discover'; that was not possible at the time) that the hydrogen bond between water molecules partook of the nature (and at times drew strength from) the covalent bonds holding the hydrogen and oxygen atoms together in the molecule. Pauling drew his theoretical ideas about the hydrogen bond from quantum mechanics. We learn from the article linked to above that the 1999 research experimentally confirmed Pauling's predictions.

However, the hydrogen bond in water doesn't contribute to its retaining 'a certain geometrical shape in its intermolecular structure'. On the contrary, it is relatively weak, and this weakness is what gives water its unique sloppiness and versatility -- molecules of water can bind to each other and other organic molecules in a wide variety of different ways. This is why water is such a good solvent, why it holds heat so well without getting very hot itself, why it expands at temperatures just above freezing, and so on. Water is dynamic, not static, in structural terms.

Neither Pauling's hypothesis nor the experimental confirmation of his ideas support any suggestion that water retains any particular geometrical shape for long periods (liquids don't; that's what makes them liquids, you know).

This strong Hydrogen covalent bond is formed by the so called Gluons at the quantum level and some others.

Gluons have nothing to do with chemical bonding. They participate in strong nuclear interactions, binding protons and neutrons together in atomic nuclei. What you have stated here is, to my understanding at least, completely wrong.

the structuring of the shapes in water is given NMR, which stands for nuclear magnetic resonance.

What you mean, I think, is that the 'structure' of water is affected by nuclear magnetic resonance. But when we talk about the structure of water, what do we mean?

In the liquid state, in spite of 80% of the electrons being concerned with bonding, the three atoms do not stay together as the hydrogen atoms are constantly exchanging between water molecules due to protonation/deprotonation processes. Both acids and bases catalyze this exchange and even when at its slowest (at pH 7), the average time for the atoms in an H2O molecule to stay together is only about a millisecond. As this brief period is, however, much longer than the timescales encountered during investigations into water's hydrogen bonding or hydration properties, water is usually treated as a permanent structure.

No doubt you will understand the import of this. Any 'structure' the molecules of water in a glass hold (apart from the 'structure' imparted to them by the shape of the glass) holds steady for around a millisecond. So if water has memory, it's pretty short-term. As an explanation for the claimed properties of homeopathic drugs, 'water memory' won't, if you'll pardon the expression, wash.

As for the suggestion that water can be imparted with structure by the solicitations of devout Turks, I must say I find the idea rather charming.

* * *

For those interested, more on the molecular properties and structure of water, scientifically but fairly simply explained, can be read at the source quoted above and here.


[edit on 5-11-2007 by Astyanax]

Astyanax,

the more you study about this crap , the more you will find its gaps.

the two sources you cited do not talk in the single least about intermolecular energy transactions or hydrogen transactions whithing various h20 molecules, therefore you couldnt even begin to understand what i mean when i talk of gluons.

they do talk about the importance of magnetics, props for that, but they still got longs ways to go.

you are right in the fact that hydrogen bonds have been long discovered, but not intermolecular hyrdogen bonds. they have been largely put in question till 1998(not 1999)

i dunno if i misremembered on pauling, however i am speaking out of sheer memory, maybe afterwards ill take the time on picking up a book for clearing your mind a bit.

and water being a good solvent, has nothing to do with what i am talking about.

a few peeps to look up , szent gyorgyi, dr. lorentzen, pauling and others....
key words, structured water, clustered water etc.....

maybe ill take the trouble of trolling around aftewards, laters...

[edit on 6-11-2007 by savageseb]