Nato and Turkey

They would need our authorization because Iraq is a U.S. Protectorate. Its like Turkey saying, you know what, Guam has a bunch of bad guys there, we want to invade it. We demolished the Iraqi government, Disbanded there army, and cut there police force to 1/4 of what it was. If Turkey chooses to Invade Iraq, they need U.S. authorization because its our conquered territory. U.S. troops are in Northern Iraq, They actually interact quite alot with the Peshmerga, as well as the PKK(which is a politcal entity in Iraq).

My thoughts anyway.

Cheers,

Camain

First of all, Turkey is not neighboring Guam. The PKK is crossing over into Turkish territory and attacking civilians as well as soldiers. Also , last i heard Iraq still has a sovereign government that can make its own decisions. In fact, the Iraqi president,who is a Kurd himself, told the PKK to lay down their weapons. This is a matter betweeen 2 NEIGHBORING countries.

Invocation of Article 5 confirmed
Frank Taylor, the US Ambassador at Large and Co-ordinator for Counter-terrorism briefed the North Atlantic Council - NATO's top decision-making body- on 2 October on the results of investigations into the 11 September terrorist attacks against the United States. As a result of the information he provided to the Council, it has been clearly determined that the individuals who carried out the attacks belonged to the world-wide terrorist network of Al-Qaida, headed by Osama bin Laden and protected by the Taleban regime in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan campaign was/is a NATO operation. Here we have PKK incursions on Turkey soil so we can say that Turkey is attacked from abroad and such invocation (if requested by Turkey) could apply.

PKK is also listed as a terrorist organization by EU, USA and NATO and we are fighting this so called War on Terror, so why the double standard?

Exactly, its a double standard. The US is still mad at Turkey for not letting them use Incirlik Air Force base to stage attacks in the begining stages of the war. The US is allowed to launch its fake proxy war from 1000s of miles away but when it comes to a country defending itself from terrorists from a neighboring country all of sudden they need US authorization. Thankfully, Turkey has said they will exhaust all diplomatic efforts before turning to military efforts.
I have duel citizenship, both Turkish and US, and feel very strongly about this issue. I have a cousin serving in the Turkish army and he could be deployed there any day. I would much sooner join the Turkish army and fight for a real cause rather than join the US army and fight for the wallets of Halliburton,BAE ,etc.

reply to post by camain

The problem with all this being is that its the U.S. responsibilty to handle the PKK in Iraq.

Errr... Its the US responsibility to ensure that the Kurdistan government is doing something about the PKK .. but its not like the PKK have little cities and forts all over Northern Iraq. In all actuality the PKK operating in Northern Iraq are actually Turkish citizens that flee Turkey, attack over the boundary and flee again. Kind of like "nanana boo boo you can't get me!" ... but they can. That's where the hidden message lies .. now if ya'll would take off your sheeple goggles and turn away from propaganda news sources you would know that Arbil has given permission to Turkish forces to enter Kurdistan and kill PKK militants. They killed some 18 yesturday. Kurdistan has no problem with this.

Neither does the US.

In fact, these incursions have been happening since the Kurdish governments creation in late 2003, Turkey usually asks permission and tells where they are going, unless Kurdish forces can attack PKK cells themselves, which they have done..

Now however these issues coming to light could actually be Turkey decalring to the world Kurdistan will not survive next to Turkey -- its like a free palestine next to Irseal, not good for Turkey, not good for Israel, no ones happy.

The war in Iraq is failing, and eventually we will pull out, our coming economic troubles and worsening dollar (since oct 1 Bush has asked for almost 200 billion for the war and war related causes) and when the US leaves Iraq Kurdistan is self preservative, it can stand on its own.. Kurdistan gives more money to the Iraqi government then the entire nation combined, through oil sales and believe it or not, tourism..

Turkey will never allow a free Kurdish state to survive.

The reason why I say this is because once the country was conquered, and there army disbanded.

Northern Iraq is governed by Kurdistan's government, Arbil has some 250,000 under its command. The problem fighting PKK in Northern Iraq is one, the terrain and 2. Most PKK are Turkish, if they cross from Turkey to attack how is the Kurdish military supposed to know where they will pop up? .. Almost all border security is on the Southern side of the country, protecting it against Iraq, the other majority against Iran where Iran has attacked outright without cause several times, and few to the north, because the territory is mostly Kurdish people in South East Turkey...

This being said if Turkey was to Invade Iraq, without the authorization, or monitoring of the U.S. then its is infact an act of war on a vassal state.

Iraq is not a vassal state.. according to its mission it is a free state in some sort of peace keeping mission -- turkey attacking Iraq is not our worry, destabalizing the North to either succede from Iraq or disintegrate opening the territory to Shia terrorist.....

If Turkey was smart, they should join the "coalition" with explicit mandates to only operating within northern Iraq.

Pick up a history book man, if the Turks got permission to do such a mission it would be a blood bath. It would be their Vietnam.

This way, they could send 1 million soldiers over the border, crush the PKK

Pick up a census book. The Turks military including Air Force, Navy, SF, Support staff = 1.2 million. The average deployed military force into Iraq would be roughly 25-50k .. The military runs things in Turkey, having to many abroad = unrest at home, especially pulling troops out of the Eastern provinces.

and remember the Kurds do have a US trained army, far surpassing the Iraqi military.

taybes

Why would the US need to authorize Turkey's excursion into northern Iraq?

Did they ever ask?

No.

And if Turkey out right invaded the territory destroying its built up border in the South then I am afraid America would have no choice but to attack Turkish forces in Iraq -- If Northern Iraq falls it would take thousands upon thousands of American troops to restore order -- it is currently 100% done by Kurds right now, there are no American troops there (though there may now with what Turkey is doing) The Kurdish region is large, and it has large cities that have not seen violence since America liberated them from Sunni control .. The shia and sunni would rush in suicide bombers faster then you can say Jihad!

there are no US troops anywhere near the northern border so its not like they would be "interfering" with USA's freedom spreading.

Indirectly they would be, and a Turkish invasion wouldn't stop at the barren lands of Northern Iraq .. wouldn't surprise me if they declare Arbil barbarians and try and take the capital to ensure "no more pkk attacks" come from Kurdistan. Oh. They might take all the oil in Kurdish control for safe keeping, it might fund PKK members.

camain

They would need our authorization because Iraq is a U.S. Protectorate.

No its not.

U.S. troops are in Northern Iraq

No they don't. Only support staff for training military units -- or maybe a few on RR.

They actually interact quite alot with the Peshmerga, as well as the PKK(which is a politcal entity in Iraq).

No they don't, and no there aren't .. The PKK's stronghold of supporters is in Turkey and Northern Iran.. they opperate in Iraq but with much less support from the population.. many blame the PKK for the various genocides inflicted by the Turks and Saddam.. and many love the PKK for fighting for their rights -- but in politics the PKK has no major foothold.

The PKK is crossing over into Turkish territory and attacking civilians as well as soldiers.

The PKK is crossing into Iraq then back into Turkey and back into Iraq.

last i heard Iraq still has a sovereign government that can make its own decisions. In fact, the Iraqi president,who is a Kurd himself, told the PKK to lay down their weapons. This is a matter betweeen 2 NEIGHBORING countries.

last i heard Iraq still has a sovereign government that can make its own decisions. In fact, the Iraqi president,who is a Kurd himself, told the PKK to lay down their weapons. This is a matter betweeen 2 NEIGHBORING countries.

Exactly -- and with the creation of the Kurdish military the PKK have been "outlawed" from forming military groups to attack innocent people -- hence why all the attacks have been against Turkey yet no revenge against Sunnis and Shia in the south, they have been left out of the revenge cycle that has claimed so many thousands of shia and sunni lives.. the PKK still operates, its hard to destroy an idea, but over all in their territory they have done good at controlling them.. the Turks however have been getting the upper hand on the PKK in the last few years, so they tried cross border attacks with more success.

Here we have PKK incursions on Turkey soil so we can say that Turkey is attacked from abroad and such invocation (if requested by Turkey) could apply.

Notice that Al Quada was NOT the target in the NATO request by the US, Afghanistan was... for harboring terrorist. Axis of evil speech??

PKK is also listed as a terrorist organization by EU, USA and NATO and we are fighting this so called War on Terror, so why the double standard?

"war on terror" is a sham.

The US is allowed to launch its fake proxy war from 1000s of miles away but when it comes to a country defending itself from terrorists from a neighboring country all of sudden they need US authorization.

Turkey can do what ever it wants. Its a grown up. It must also except the reactions to all actions they partake in -- severe economic actions that, in Turkeys current economic state would be.. dreadful.

Turkey has said they will exhaust all diplomatic efforts before turning to military efforts.

Turks and diplomacy mean something soooo different then the way we mean Diplomacy.

I have duel citizenship, both Turkish and US, and feel very strongly about this issue. I have a cousin serving in the Turkish army and he could be deployed there any day.

Most Turks do feel strongly about the issue, after the last attack and kidnapping of the soldiers there, there was protest in the streets for action. You, as a Turk, cannot deny that your own domestic and foreign policy against Kurds has not caused this.

I would much sooner join the Turkish army and fight for a real cause rather than join the US army and fight for the wallets of Halliburton,BAE ,etc.

"Real cause" .. Both armies destroy people far less superior militarily then them. Great cause my friend. Both wars by both countries would have been caused by failed policy.

This is the problem with duel citizenship, you allegiance only lies in one homeland.

Of course Turkey can do whatever they want to. After all, the majority of air traffic to Middle East from Europe and United States goes through Turkey and their air corridor. Since WWII Turkey has been a big ally of NATO and a member too for very good strategic reasons. And that is why they are able to do things, such as this attacks into Northern Iraq. Soon everybody will forget. Just like they did forget ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!

this thread has taken a nasty turn

Originally posted by taybes
this thread has taken a nasty turn

Merhaba Taybes

How successfully the Turks could have warded off the resultant stigma through counter-propaganda will never be known. But it is certain that in 1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it. Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]

as well as this ;

A joke is making its way around Istanbul, and more often than not, it's told by European Union supporters, usually with a resigned shrug of the shoulders. The joke goes like this: At Bulgaria's EU-entry negotiations, Bulgarian representatives were told that the entrance exam consisted of one question: What year did World War I begin? Surprise, surprise: Bulgaria gets in. The Romanians were next; their question was, "What year did World War I end?" The Romanians answer and walk away with a cordial invitation. The Turkish representatives stepped up next. Their question: "How many people died in World War I and what were their names?"

After this week's debate on Turkish accession talks in the European Parliament, according to prominent Turkish foreign policy commentator Semih Idiz, the punchline ought to be modified. In the new version, Turkey also gets asked to recite the addresses and the telephone numbers of World War II victims.

Originally posted by Souljah
......Soon everybody will forget. Just like they did forget ARMENIAN GENOCIDE!

TALL ARMENIAN TALE







[edit on 24-10-2007 by 23432]

[edit on 24-10-2007 by 23432]