Really Simple Thought Exercise...

reply to post by ipsedixit


Okay, so finally we get you to elaborate on why you don't believe that flight 77 was slammed into the pentagon. You're going by this film link that you've submitted. Alright, well believe it or not I don't have an hour to devote to some conspiracy film that you happen to link up momentarily.

I caught perhaps the first five minutes of it and here's what I took away from it. A Boeing aircraft with a missile 'pod' on the bottom launched a missile into the Pentagon and harmlessly flew right over the place.

Huh?

Oh yeah, this theory (from what I gather) was all based on one lone eyewitness at a gas station. So my direct question back to you on that would be the following; what makes this one lone eyewitness any more credible than the hundreds of other eyewitnesses that stated otherwise? Let alone all of the debris from the plane found in the Pentagon, victim DNA recovered from the Pentagon, lamp posts upended on the highway and so forth.

Answer that and spare me from wasting an hour of my time on an internet conspiracy production if you would be so kind.

Hey, I have to confess (curiosity got the better of me) and I ended up watching that little docudrama despite it all. So here's my immediate 'synopsis' of it --

First of all, pretty entertaining I have to admit. I was really getting into it up until after the witness testimony when out of nowhere -- the film makers jump at the goofy conclusion that the plane never impacted the Pentagon and instead flew over it!

Thanks a lot though, because now I'm even more convinced that the plane impacted the building. Because if you notice; all three witnesses actually corroborated that! Not one witness in the documentary itself stated that the plane flew over the building. I liked the part also where the last witness (the police officer) claimed it was for certain not an explosion, but a destructive impact (citing his familiarity with a k9 explosives unit or whatnot) -- Yet! -- The filmmakers out of nowhere come up with the ridiculous claim that it in fact was an planted explosion that occurred.

As far as the witnesses go (upwards of five years after the fact for that matter) I have to admit; I wasn't really impressed (let alone convinced of a Government conspiracy as a result.) The one eyewitness couldn't even recall which fueling pump he was located at! Yet at the beginning the filmmakers make a point of asserting (everybody remembers exactly where they were on that day.)

Another red haring thrown in by the makers of the doc -- (all eyewitnesses perfectly corroborated one another) Hardly!

The third witness saw a United airlines jet and the fourth seen an AA jet. I also like how towards the end there the filmmakers try to blow out of proportion the color of the plane from witness to witness. Why would an AA flight look off white to one person in a certain location and silver to another? Obviously because the body of the aircraft is shiny reflective aluminum which tends to mirror the hues of whatever it passing over back at the observer.

Three witnesses (sketchy at best) that caught a glimpse of the plane for perhaps a second. Plus, five years after the fact. We have them on one side. On the other we have bus loads of other witnesses who claim otherwise. Why am I not convinced due to that of a Government conspiracy to murder innocent civilians? When I type sketchy, I in fact mean that as well. As in the case of the 3rd witness who acknowledged telling different stories. That the vortex from the plane had literally forced him into the patrol car and then later stating that wasn't the case. Sounds like he sort of exaggerated a few details there early on to me. In other words; not your 'ideal' witness by any stretch.

In closing, I loved how the wild theories just started running amuck there in the closing 20 mins or so of the film. That the street poles were planted out there on the highway. That the cab driver was in on that as well. So they would have to plant the street poles in the street along with the damaged cab without anybody seeing that whatsoever? Does that make any sort of sense to you?

You know, I'm sure those police officers are pretty pissed off that they got duped into being the hour long setup to those wild, crackpot theories there towards the end. It's time for me to switch my little mood indicator there in the upper left corner of my posts to 'Amazed'

reply to post by illuminatinatifofotty


The most frightening thing to me is that I think most Americans share your point of view and general attitude to the problems posed by 911. As George Bush himself might say, "Democracy works!"

reply to post by ipsedixit


You have got to be seriously kidding me. You want to live in an America where the majority of the free thinkers out there watch an hour long documentary such as that one and arrive at the conclusion that the United States government killed three thousand of it's own citizens for no really good reason whatsoever?

That is what you're saying with that, you are aware right?

I'm sorry, but that's a crackpot society plain and simply.

Plus, you're still avoiding the key details even raised by your own docudrama that you linked up. So here's a quiz on that 'smoking gun' piece of cinema (just curious as to how much of that you actually buy into and a simple yes or no is sufficient at this point.)

Do you honestly believe that there is any compelling evidence there that a plane over flew the Pentagon, even though the direct witnesses in the doc claimed that it in fact impacted the Pentagon?

Do you honestly believe that the 'cabal' would go to the trouble of making such a low pass over the Pentagon only to have the plane fly up and over it? And chancing that anybody on ground level within a two mile radius (that's a lot of people) would not only witness, but may document that?

Do you honestly believe that those light poles were planted on the highway along with the busted out windshield of that taxi cab at a moments notice? Lets face it, that would have to be accomplished immediately afterwards on a busy highway in plain view of anybody that happens to mosey along. You honestly buy into that?

Do you honestly believe that all of those people are either in on the conspiracy or mistaken? That's as I pointed out a hundred or more as opposed to three who's stories don't even match up under close scrutiny. Here's who would have to be in on the conspiracy; The FAA investigators, Pentagon employees, First responders, scores of agencies, committees....Remember, there are pictures of first responders with clearly identifiable American Airlines debris from flight 77 right in their hands! Do you honestly believe they are all lying as opposed to those three witnesses who have a hard time really remembering what in fact they seen, where they stood, what they did five years after the fact? Do you honestly believe that?

Do you honestly believe that all of the airline debris was planted within the Pentagon?

Do you honestly believe that they just made up the fact that the majority of the victims were identified through DNA analysis by a record number of forensics investigators?

One other thing I happen to notice was the price tag on that 'smoking gun' DVD; 20 bucks a pop! So in other words, this smoking gun material that clearly implicates your own government in a conspiracy to murder it's own citizens is finally here to enlighten us all (pretty important material you would imagine) Twenty bucks to view it though, go figure.

What boggles my brain, is since you guys are so good at putting conspiracy theories together; how come you haven't caught on to the conspiracy to sell conspiracy theories to you at this point? Let's face it, selling conspiracy theories is a money maker. Wether it be in DVD, or in 'pop up' book form, or whatever. Think of how much money has been made alone on the business of peddling this garbage to you since those planes struck.

Enough to categorize it all as a lucrative industry (millions of dollars Dr. Evil!) Has it ever occurred to you that certain interests have invested in the CT nonsense? And as a result want to keep it going as one would with any enterprise? Sad fact of it is, the average CT entrepreneur (like Alex Jones, Jim Marr's, etc.) have made a fortune off of this nonsense. More than the families of the victims that lost their relatives that day.

And I don't need any elaborately spun tale to convince anybody of that, because it is undeniable fact.

reply to post by illuminatinatifofotty

You should re-read your own posts if only to confirm what is obvious to anyone reading them, that you are not interested enough in 911 to do research on it. I think that is the case with most people in America. They plain and simple don't care about 911 because it didn't happen to them.

Watching documentaries and including them in a decision making process is not going to turn the nation that produced Tammy Fay Baker, Pee Wee Herman and Paris Hilton into a crackpot society.

Dude, your posting style is annoying. I'm not going to bother quoting all your questions but I will attempt to answer them in sequence. You are demanding one word answers (what a surprise that is) but I'll have to amplify a little to make sense. Here goes:

If there is compelling evidence of an overflight of the Pentagon it is in the security video footage that the government won't release. What does the Bush administration have to hide?

An over flight of the Pentagon is doable because of it's proximity to the end of the runway at Reagan International Airport. Keep in mind that by that time most people were glued to their TVs anyway.

Yes I believe that the airplane did not bring down the lightpoles. How they were brought down is anybody's guess, but it's not a big stretch to think that some sneaky way of doing it is possible.

No I don't believe that everyone connected to the workings of the plot was in on it. Some were. People can participate in a plot as dupes, or simply as unknowing spear carriers in a cast of thousands.

Yes, I believe airline debris was planted at the Pentagon. You should check out Jack White's 911studies.org website, where he showcases numerous examples of photoshopped images of the scene at the Pentagon. There was a lot of tomfoolery going on there. The testamony of the fire department first responders is also revealing. (A fire truck that happened to be in the neighborhood had the fire out almost immediatley. I believe that there is some suspicion that the fire might have been restarted to create the publicized inferno. The firemen were later told to shut up about what had happened.)

I'm not sure about the DNA evidence cited. There are threads that discuss this aspect of the case in detail as well. It's just something I haven't looked into that much. Having said that, any kind of story could be told about a process that is going on in a laboratory somewhere.

I'm surprised that you are concerned about people making money off what they do. You live in America don't you. What have you got against earning a living? Doctors make money off sick people every day. Just think of it as making money off an ailing nation.

[edit on 4-10-2007 by ipsedixit]

[edit on 4-10-2007 by ipsedixit]

reply to post by ipsedixit


Glad you responded, because it reveals a lot about what sort of individual I'm really interacting with here. As for this --

"you are not interested enough in 911 to do research on it. I think that is the case with most people in America. They plain and simple don't care about 911 because it didn't happen to them."

I just took over an hour out of my day to watch that CT doc you linked to me. So don't tell me I'm not making some sort of effort here to try to understand your position on the matter. And what in the hell are you talking about that 'it didn't happen to them'? Every American was an indirect victim of those attacks regardless. Could have been you or me which is why I'm so critical at the thought of some huckster exploiting it as in the case of crackpot CT theories, selling the 'real' story that ultimately explains nothing upon conclusion except wild speculation.

Watching documentaries and including them in a decision making process is not going to turn the nation that produced Tammy Fay Baker, Pee Wee Herman and Paris Hilton into a crackpot society.

Great job at attempting to stereotype your own society there 'truth' seeker. See, that's the problem with a lot of you CT theorists; you deep down hold some kind of grudge against society. Perhaps because you don't fit into it all too well. That would be a personal problem of yours however. But instead of facing that, you see the glass as half full and rationalize that you are special in someway. That you see what others don't. Feels nice to think and attempt to pawn yourself off as such. But the reality is (just like the reality you twist around to conform to your theories) -- you're living in a deluded fantasy land.

I'm dying however to take a crack at your logical assumptions here in regards to the topic. And you know what? One is sufficient enough, because one explains your entire little mystery away. So lets take a gander again at this one --

Yes I believe that the airplane did not bring down the lightpoles. How they were brought down is anybody's guess, but it's not a big stretch to think that some sneaky way of doing it is possible.

That's the answer given here from somebody who has done countless hours of research into these matters? Anybody's guess? A sneaky way is possible?

Elaborate please. Explain to me a 'sneaky way' of shearing off light poles at both the tops (and the base) right in the middle of a busy highway without anybody noticing you. I'm dying to hear and I bet you are at a complete loss to provide me with a logical answer. And do you know why? Because it's flat out impossible that's why! Unless of course you tell me a low flying passenger jet smacked the light poles on it's approach into the Pentagon. See that makes sense. And that's what your theory lacks; basic common sense. 'Anybody's guess' and 'sneaky way' aren't efficient enough, I'm sorry.

Especially when you're putting forth the crackpot theory that your own government is responsible for taking the lives of 3000 innocent civilians (and the light poles are a fundamental block in holding your entire asinine theory together.)

I can't help address this one either --

An over flight of the Pentagon is doable because of it's proximity to the end of the runway at Reagan International Airport. Keep in mind that by that time most people were glued to their TVs anyway.

But what about all the people at Reagan international airport? Were they all wearing paper bags over their heads to miss that plane touching down right after the smoke started billowing???

Finally with this here --

I'm surprised that you are concerned about people making money off what they do.

I am honestly. Especially when it's exploiting a mass tragedy to sell a DVD full of wild speculation with no proof whatsoever behind it.

I have to give you this, you are a gamer, and that is probably America's greatest strength. We'll probably butt heads again in another thread. It was fun.

Incidentally I'm Canadian, but I think it's the ideas that count. By the way did you know that by act of the Congress of the United States anyone born on the continent of North America is entitled to call themselves "American"? I don't do so, but if I did I would do it with pride.

Originally posted by Redge777
The more outrages the lie, the easier it is to believe. I forget where this comes from.

Your paraphrasing one of Hitler's remarks. It's in chapter 10 of Mein Kampf. You can read the verse here

2PacSade-