Death doesn't make sense according to physics

Your not making any sense erkokite,

So the universe didn't process any information billions of years before your observation of it?

The computer analogy doesn't make any sense. In order to "smash" the computer you would have to "smash" the universe. The universe doesn't cease to exist when you experience death and neither do you. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Originally posted by polomontana
Shakey and others are really stepping in it. They keep briniging up the soul when I have not mentioned it. This shows they are so blinded by their objection to religion that they can't think straight about physics.

Also, when we dream, what are we seeing? Does your brain "see" without your eyes? How do you "hear" in your dreams without your ears? How do you "touch" something in your dreams without your hands? I'm sure some of you will answer in absolutes like a Sith but physics does not answer these questions absolutely.

Also, Red you act as if the computation that makes up consciousness is independent of the universe. This is the huge mistake of the ego. When we die the universe doesn't get turned off and neither do you.

When is the electricity "cut" on the universe? Does it get "cut" when you die? When your material body experiences death, the information that you have stored still exists because the atoms that stored this information still exists after you die. Yes, it may be a suprise to you but information and energy keeps processing information even after you die.

Yeah, I'm just gonna stop trying to teach you becuase it's frustrating and I really have nothing to gain from it. I'll just point out that I have a 165 IQ so my analysis is much, much better than yours.

[edit on 9/18/07 by RedDragon]

Also, where is your inner voice located? When you ask yourself, should I go to work or call off, who is doing the talking and how are you hearing it? How can you hear music and sing the words to a song in your mind? How can you do these 2 things simultaneously? Who is playing the music and who is singing the lyrics? How do producers her the music in their mind before they have produced the song? Who is playing the music and how are you hearing it?

Just questions

Originally posted by erkokite
As for your comment about dreams and such - you're much better of researching neurology and psychology. It has nothing to do with physics. Your perception of reality is filtered through your sensory organs, your nervous system, and your brains various low level "subsystems," until it finally reaches the conscious part of your brain. Anything could be piped into the conscious part of your brain, and you would perceive it. This is how you see/touch/smell things that aren't really there. Nothing mystical about it.

So you are saying that perception can create reality, so how do you know you are not the perception of someone elses Mind??

You guys are really steppin in it

I think you need to quit while your behind like red dragon and his high IQ.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by polomontana]

I'm sorry polo, but for your information, i am actually a Catholic Christian. You say that my objection to religion blinds me? I disagree. Also, inner voice and such phenomena can be explained by Science. And do not thing we should quit while you're ahead.

You are obviously delusional. You think your arguement wins? I'm sorry but you have not stated much that can be backed up by REAL evidence.
The people here who love to support science do have evidence, and LOTS of IT. Infact, many of the clever people who you have heard of spent their lives involved with making the theories and proving them. You have made a theory. PROVE IT.

reply to post by RedDragon


So what if your iq is 165, that's kind of deameaning, self absorbed, and egotistical. Who really cares?

Originally posted by polomontana
.

Now, i have shown that energy survives death.

No, you did not and ( it seems to me) that there is no way for you to accept, that you are making fallacy, by positioning a mind ( or 'soul' ) as thermodynamically unrelated to body and body's entropy.

We are born - we live - we die - our carbon atoms will be rearranged in something animate or inanimate, we ( as open system ) in other words, reach maximum entropy or death!

Originally posted by malakiem
reply to post by RedDragon

 

So what if your iq is 165, that's kind of deameaning, self absorbed, and egotistical. Who really cares?

Try teaching things to someone who has an IQ of 35 and that's about how I feel. I'm going to be frank and say that my thoughts are much more efficient, accurate, and more correct than the guy I was arguing with. Just because he doesn't understand that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Originally posted by polomontana
Also, where is your inner voice located?

I can have two of them going on at the same time carrying out independent thought processes (no multiple personality disorder lol) and I can shut one off at "will" to engage with one more efficient thought process. There obviously aren't 2 of me. Thus, the existance your inner-voice is not a proof of anything that you're getting at.

But your inner voice is created by the Broca's Area of your brain. If you mess around with this area, you can mess around with the inner voice in your head. Try running electrical charges through this area and your inner voice would go bonkers. Remove it entirely, and you probably wouldn't have a consciousness anymore in a way that you understand it.

Source:

One experience common to many spiritual states is hearing the voice of God. It seems to arise when you misattribute inner speech (the "little voice" in your head that you know you generate yourself) to something outside yourself. During such experiences, the brain's Broca's area (responsible for speech production) switches on. Most of us can tell this is our inner voice speaking. But when sensory information is restricted, as happens during meditation or prayer, people are "more likely to misattribute internally generated thoughts to an external source," suggests psychologist Richard Bentall of the University of Manchester in England in the book "Varieties of Anomalous Experience."
www.geocities.com... (a copy of an article from MSNBC)

[edit on 9/18/07 by RedDragon]

[edit on 9/18/07 by RedDragon]

Death is simply the soul leaving. No energy is lost nor killed.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Death is simply the soul leaving. No energy is lost nor killed.

evidence?

I had to register just to post an answer...
Sorry for my english. Not my native language bla bla

IMHO... and most of the scientific community (except for some mistake i may commit during this explanation)

Many elementar particles are grouped in molecules in a particular way. Why they started to create such groups has to do both with the availability of elements in earth and the electronic characteristics of the atoms. If you notice, most uncommon elements in earth are very bad for us. Toxicity and relative percentage of abundance are somewhat related.

These molecules form cells and we have many different types of cells on our bodies.
Due to the molecules they are formed upon, they form cycles which transform some molecules in other molecules.
These processes are not perfect resulting both in errors and waste. The errors damage the physical structure of the cells. Also, and after some time, the amount of waste inside the cells, or the damage to the structures is so high, that they eventually stop performing the same reactions efficiently. When this happens the cell will dye. Many other things can happen but this is the path most important to this demonstration.

As human beings, we are composed by many of these cells and we actually form (same for a cow, monkey, or most of the other complex living creatures) an incredibly complex system with many processes permanently occurring. The processes are much complex and most are linked in some form. If any of these processes deviates from its function we experience a malfunction. With this malfunction many other processes can be affected either stopping, increasing or decreasing its operation.

With time, it seems that the processes start decreasing their efficiency due to the higher number of structural errors and accumulated garbage. This happens because some elements are not eliminated form our bodies and some cells lack the proper means of repair. Many other factors are currently being studied as cuplrits of our aging process.

We die when some vital process fails to operate. One example is when our heart stops. Oxygen and other nutrients are not delivered to the cells and the (until then) "normal" processes are not possible anymore. Because of this, other processes, dorment untill that moment due to the lack of conditions, start operating.

The difference between the moments just before and after someone dies lies in the processes active in each moment.
Regarding our "soul", as the brain consumes most of the available nutrients and oxigen, it slows down until it eventually stops. Its just like a computer. When you power it off, all the software will stop being processed because the CPU will stop. Software does not travels to an higher plane of existence.

Interestingly, there is one difference between us and a computer running software. Our brain operates based both on chemical reactions and electrical impulses. So it can be stated that some part of us will resist death. That is the electrical and chemical matrix imprinted in our cells. The same happens on a CPU but it fades rather quickly in the form of heat, radio emissions and physical vibrations. Of course that even for us, that information matrix will rapidly decompose either because some support processes stopped or some bug started eating a neuron.

So, in physics there is not death... because there is no life. The meaning of life and death is created by us and our fear of disappearing.
In physicis, at a quantic level, there is no destintion between and electron belonging to an atom of a rock and one belonging to an atom in our brain (either dead or alive).

However, considering death as the end of an existence with a given elementar properties, even in physics many things decay

I think i stated something that is obvious for most of us. I know many of you will never believe in this but... thats how life is... .

Cheers

[edit on 18-9-2007 by JSheppard]

Originally posted by RedDragon

evidence?

I saw my relative die in the hospital. something left. Their eyes seems to be 'letting out" something. Funny, because the oldest religions of Africa say this is the soul.

My own proof is the countless religions all pointing to the same God. From Asian Christian break off religions, to the Catholic church itself. From Buddhists, to African Shamans. All point to the same God. In the end, religion always wins, because people always believe.


Allow a Buddhist's words to describe your laughable ignorance(this is from some guy I met in South East Asia):

"You forgot one thing, religion always wins! It is like a flood. If you think plugging the Dam's holes with toothpaste will do anything, live in that fantasy. The water always finds a way. Forget which one IT is, the flood of religion always wins. Look at Russia. The Communists tried for 80 or so years to stop religion, and they got no where, Your Christian God now calls his flock from China, not Europe. An I can already see the revival of religion in Europe. Look at your world, when Europe crumbles, they will find help in God once again. It is funny to see this people think they can stop the flood. They will all drown, as have so many others."

Originally posted by RedDragon
Yeah, I'm just gonna stop trying to teach you becuase it's frustrating and I really have nothing to gain from it. I'll just point out that I have a 165 IQ so my analysis is much, much better than yours.

Wow, you are amazing! I wish I was as smart as you! Boy, Captain, we should be your slaves, eh? Can you walk on water, too?

P.S. What IQ test did you take?

No, online ones don't count.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by Johnmike]

reply to post by RedDragon


Do you have any evidence as to what is at the center of the big bang or how something can have 'nothing' surrounding it? Isn't the "things can't exist in nothing or outside of time" an arguement used against God? I mean, where would an observer observe this infinite energy density from? If you can't observe something it doesn't exist, right?. The universe most definately exists and it was started by an energy transfer from higher dimension.

I believe the beginning of the universe to be a one dimensional point that is the fifth dimension. This one dimension point is 'leaking' time. I believe the 'soul' is a one dimensional point along a two dimensional linear timeline. Our 'soul' is to the fifth dimension what our body is to the third. I will have an easier time proving this than any one disproving it.

Wow. I totally agree with every word you said.

Do death makes no sense.

If I may be so bold to suggest that the original question asking about death and what happens to the energy that was us if energy can never be destroyed is excellent reasoning, but also too circumspect. Physics is the study of only one energy system of which we are composed. There are two other systems of energy scientists do not study.

There is an authorative cosmology already published (reference at the end) which discusses these energy systems and how they relate to each other during the physical life, and what becomes of them after the death of the material vehicle we call the body.

For quick reference, the human body not only consists of electro-chemical functions, it also is connected through the brain and the master tissues (the endocrine gland system) with these three other major systems:

Two are genuine energy systems with their own laws of behavior, and the third is a controller system:

1) The spiritual energies which the master glands translate into body sensation;

2) The mind energy systems - plural - because there are several and all of which we are unaware of except as we use the mind to think.

3) The personality endowment which is the master organizer of the experience of using all three types of energy endowments upon us. Our personality is not an energy sytem, but the unifier of life as we live it.

Upon physical death, and as at least one responder has indicated, the spiritual-physical energies associated with our lives on earth have been re-combined into the soul form. The soul form is neither material or spiritual, but a combination of both energies that equate to be something entirely new and not recognized by name on our planet.

As one poster explained early on in this thread, we may correctly call this combination of material-spiritual energy a transformation, for that is what it is. The soul is usually without consciousness when death liberates it and also contains the passive patterns of our lives as physical beings. The soul is really a blueprint of all the effects of the energy circuits we used while living in the flesh.

Mind energy is just as real as physical energy and spiritual energy. Upon death, the mind circuit we plugged into is disconnected; the energy that powered the actual mind was loaned to us from the universe-wide cosmic mind designs. Such energy remains in the master circuit of cosmic mind- we merely disconnect.

Consciousness is not a mind function; nor is consciousness a direct use of any energy, but like a flashlight, it is "lit" by drawing power from the elcetro-chemical brain, and the brain in turn requires life-energy- animation - from the highest source of energy-identity, the First Source and Center. I do not wish to enter into theological disputes; however, to understand consciousness and the use of will power, these are characteristics of the personality which is not an energy system, but a life endowment that may be added to the energy systems of mater, mind, and spirit. Our personalities are super-additive and they too transform at death to a state that might be called "storage", until all components are brought back together into the new life form that is each of us resumes complete with life, memory, and experiences in tact.

This question about energy actually approaches the major questions of science and philosophy, since to answer it fully one must also understand that its different uses and appearances underlies the design of the universe and the life in it. What may appear to be a simple construction of energy may actually be traced back to its infinite source. The nature of even material energy has an infinite source called the Unqualified Absolute about which we know very little more than its designation.

For those who may be interested in the cosmology that teaches how all energy sytems are unified into the universe we see and the friends and relations we enjoy as family and associates, please refer to:

The Urantia Papers

In particular the reader may wish to read:

Personality Survival

That would be Paper 112; Page 1225

Ron

Originally posted by polomontana
Zaargg,

Your whole post about ufology doesn't make sense. There's no reasonable doubt that U.F.O.'s and the beings who fly them exist.

Proof of this statement? And don't say "eyewitness testimony" because the percentage of people who claim to have firsthand experiences is low enough as it is once you factor in attention seekers, moneymakers, nut jobs, and copycats.

We come to know the truth through reason everyday. We send people to jail based on the reason of 12 individuals. Any lawyer worth his/her salt will tell you that eyewitnes testimony (direct evidence) is desired in a case over circumstantial evidence but circumstantial evidence is enough to come to a reasonable conclusion. Scott Peterson was sent to death row based on largely circumstantial evidence.

A court case is not the same thing as someone claiming to see something extremely abnormal that nobody ever sees (for the most part). With your justification, I could round up a group of friends and claim we saw a flying Teacup that was flaming and claimed itself God. We could lie through our teeth for the rest of our lives and lie under oath (even though we would have no reason to ever be put under out anyway).

The skeptic of ufology only has an opinion on ufology.

And "UFOologists" only have opinions based off of obscure eyewitness testimony (often with conflicting/changing stories that do not get reported to publications seeking attention or money). Your assertion that UFO's can be logically proven to be real alien spacecraft and that they certainly exist comes packed with the assumption that literally thousands, if not millions, of investigators, researchers, and people who deal with the airspace on a day to day basis are wrong. Even more telling, hundreds of millions of scientists who say without a doubt there is no proof are also wrong. I'm so glad that you are here on this planet to set them all straight with your greater sense of reason and logic.

Ufology has both direct and circumstantial evidence. There's more evidence for U.F.O.'s than there is for black holes, virtual particles, dark matter and dark energy.

This is disgustingly false.

The only reason that the skeptics of ufology turn logic on it's head is because of their pre-existing belief system. They give there opinion more weight than eyewitness testimony .

I will continue responding to your post in another one of my own.

Originally posted by polomontana
Zaargg,
The only reason that the skeptics of ufology turn logic on it's head is because of their pre-existing belief system. They give there opinion more weight than eyewitness testimony .

Most scientists would agree that the chances of our being alone in the universe are second to none, infinitely small (except those extremely religious "scientists" who also think the world was created 12000 years ago). There are entire branches of science devoted to the search for extraterrestrial life (SETI), and this branch has done extensive research into what wavelengths of electromagnetic waves are the most likely to be used for interstellar communication etc., there are new growing fields of biology dedicated to the study of theoretical alien life (Astrobiology). There are people so excited about Titan and Europa and the possibility that life may exist on those moons that we plan to launch a probe to go see. If there was REALLY ACTUAL PROOF of aliens, wouldn't these people recognize that? They already full heartedly believe it's out there somewhere.

About the psychic there's story after story like the one I posted...

What part of "these are just stories often spread around and perpetuated often by the media" don't you understand? People aren't stupid polo, if there were psychics that worked that effectively, even a half a dozen in the entire country, they would be NATIONALLY INFAMOUS and HUGE EXTENSIVE SCIENTIFIC STUDIES would be made to try and understand how they do what they do. The reality is, there are a handful of strange cases like this that might exist, but the majority are fake stories, many propagated by the psychics themselves wanting business, and the rest sadly might comprise of people actually having real knowledge of a crime trying to sell their knowledge as psychic in order to make money. Ockham's Razor again, in order to assume these stories are real we have to account for the lack of interest and general usage of them by the police. If the police hire a psychic and it works, they will use her again. You don't see this.

In order to believe the skeptic in cases like these, you would have to give more weight to their opinion than the veteran detective who is trained to be skeptical who vouches for the psychic.

Again, your entire view of evidence is based on stories you are reading on the internet.

This is backwards logic and doesn't make any sense. Psychic ability occurs naturally and there's no evidence that the skeptic has to rebutt the evidence beyond what's called HERESAY.

I've already posted about psychic phenomenon, did you not bother to read it? EXTENSIVE TESTS have been done to try to prove the existence of psychic phenomenon, just to proof it exists, not even to see how it works. The government did this in an attempt to make a super weapon to fight the russians with. Wiki "MK ULTRA".

If you listen to most psychics they are connecting energy and we know that energy still exists after a person goes through the experience of death.

Of course, just like alchemists know how to transmute lead to gold.

Do yourself a favor, and use Ockham's Razor, or just common sense, to evaluate what people claim. Even if it touches your spiritual side, don't let it convince you that there is reality there. Every time spirituality has tried to step foot in reality, logic, technology and common observation send it right back into the realm of myth. Spirituality is meant to help you cope with life after death and the metaphysical nature of the creation of existence. YOU will have to cope with the fact that humans are becoming increasingly more aware of the PHYSICAL REALITY of the world around us, and some of our spiritual beliefs are being proven blatantly false.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by polomontana]