The argument over the existence of God

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp
I hate to break it to you but most people in the world don't believe in evolution.

i hate to break it to you, but that's the argument ad populum, which is a logical fallacy and proves absolutely nothing

Must not be very compelling 'scientific' evidence.

or they could just be ignorant of the evidence, undereducated, and/or denying it based on religious grounds.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by ppkjjkpp
I hate to break it to you but most people in the world don't believe in evolution.

i hate to break it to you, but that's the argument ad populum, which is a logical fallacy and proves absolutely nothing

Must not be very compelling 'scientific' evidence.

or they could just be ignorant of the evidence, undereducated, and/or denying it based on religious grounds.

This is not the argument ad populum. The arument ad populum is for example, when people said the world was flat and it was proven it wasn't. You can never prove there is no God. You can only believe it and have faith there is no God in your religion of atheism.
I doubt the majority of people are ignorant and uneducated. They deny it because of counter evidence. Maybe you deny creation because of your atheistic religion.

This question is kind of off topic a bit, but i was thinking about this the other day.

Lets assume for a moment there is a god, heaven and hell, and all that. God gave me the gift of free will and ability to choose what to believe and not to believe.
According to the bible if i believe then i will get into heaven, and if i dont believe then i will go to hell.

So the question is, if i choose not to believe why would god punish me for exercising a right that he gave me in the first place? That does not make alot of sense to me.


My personal opinion is that there is no god, based on what i know, and have experienced in my life, i have never seen a shred of evidence. I have however seen at least some evidence of evolution. And for the people that say the bible is evidence, i say your crazy. If you want to believe the bible was inspired by god, then shouldnt you first prove there was a god to inspire it in the first place?

Originally posted by Raistlyyn
So the question is, if i choose not to believe why would god punish me for exercising a right that he gave me in the first place? That does not make alot of sense to me.

If you're presented with only a very limited number of choices, you don't really have "free will." It's essentially the same as someone handing you a deck of cards and asking you to pick one, except that all the cards are the Ace of Spades. Not much of a choice, then, is it? Sure, you can pick any of the 52 Aces of Spades available to you, but it's not like you get to pick a diamond or a club. The strongest exercise of free will you can do is to choose not to play. Not pick any card. Nobody's god is going to give you that choice.

In answer to the question - What would be the point of our existence if there was not something more!

I for one do not think GOD is a being like man but something much more, not an alien physical being more a spiritual being of energy of which a small piece is given to us to use while we are alive and this then returns when we die. I like the idea that we are made of layers physical and spiritual and that we have free will to decide our own path along a chosen route possibly pre defined from before birth.

Not to get too complicated GOD exists look at a flower or a sunset and realise something very intelligent created this or at least think that a very talented programmer has made a truly exquisit matrix. When i see cruelty such as young children who have tragic heart rendering lives I have to believe that it is for a reason and that there is more for that child than what they have gone through in this life.

God is a man made idea.

Man most of the time doesnt get things like that right. For example most of the known world thought the world was flat. WRONG.

our planet is 4 billion years old man has been on it for 70,000 god was chillin watching ice ages, dinosaurs and nothing happen for A LONG TIME. Sorry, i dont believe god has the patience to sit and watch that happen lol. Its like watching grass grow how bad would that suck.

We eat animals with sleep like them, we nurture our kids like animals do, animals are proof of other life forms. Evolution is the best theory so far in my opinon of how man was made.

Religion is all based on people. And these people came from a time with no technology and their culture was very far less sophisticated then our own.

Science is key to proving of our existence and one day could find the anwser.

The universe has over hundreds of billions of stars and 99 percent have planetary systems around it. There is probally so much Life in this universe we'd be shocked to know how much.

Humans are nothing speacil and we were not made for a speacil purpose its like looking at a cat and saying your speacil because you are on a average planet in an average solar system.

WAKE UP! people need to open their eyes to reality and free themselves of mental slavery.

I dont believe that their is a god which in people believe. Our brains cannot comprehend the magnitude of our existence. And if their is, im sure he could careless what were doing. Because if he did alot of things would be different.

And people use god as a way to explain things they couldnt in the past like floods and bad weather that destroyed crops, the gods are mad LOL

its called weather and nature and life has a life cycle and if you cant understand than that then you live under a rock.

Originally posted by Munro_DreadGod
In answer to the question - What would be the point of our existence if there was not something more!

Or... maybe there is no point to it. Who says there has to be? We all like to think of ourselves and our opinions and what we do as important and valuable, but it's very possible that our existence is completely pointless any way you look at it. We're born on a little wet rock on the outskirts of a big galaxy, we live for just a tiny amount of time, then we die and rot. We live for a while in the memory of our friends, and then they die, and we're soon forgotten. We can be Alexander the Great or Hitler, and we still die and will one day be forgotten. Most of us don't even leave behind an image of ourselves on stone. And even then, stones are broken and wear away. So we are forgotten.



And we imagine that Jesus and God love us and will remember and take care of us after we die because we were good people, rather than face our own worthlessness.

[edit on 21-2-2008 by Nohup]

The way i see it, our purpose or "point of being here" is the same as any other mammals on this planet. Eat, Sleep, Reproduce. As long as we do that the species will live on. Is the most primitive instinct a person has, Survival. As long as i do something that will help the next generation survive, then i have done my part, i have served my "purpose".

Just because we are a little "smarter" than the rest of the animals means that we are "special"? So special in fact that god made this entire huge universe with trillions of stars just for a few humans? If we were so special then why not have just one star, one planet, one moon?

If there is a god, then why bother putting evidence of him not existing? To trick us so we dont believe, so he/she can throw all of us in hell? I think the only reason people believe in god is because they are all scared of the reality that is, the only reason you are here is because your parents had sex!

The sooner people realize that and accept it, the sooner we can get rid of religion, its the cause of 90% of the worlds problems, and then we as a human race can really start to get things done, and figure out how to get of this rock, and find others more or less like us!

Originally posted by belowtheinfluence
God is a man made idea.

Man most of the time doesnt get things like that right. For example most of the known world thought the world was flat. WRONG.

our planet is 4 billion years old man has been on it for 70,000 god was chillin watching ice ages, dinosaurs and nothing happen for A LONG TIME. Sorry, i dont believe god has the patience to sit and watch that happen lol. Its like watching grass grow how bad would that suck.

[...] if God made everything, and I mean everything then time wouldnt have any effect on the man. God knows everything, can see everything, and isnt restricted - you cant define him by earthly terms, you cant describe his nature or his power though words.

You might wanna think about God and the bible before posting.

-fm

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[edit on 23/2/08 by masqua]

Originally posted by Nohup
Most of us don't even leave behind an image of ourselves on stone. And even then, stones are broken and wear away. So we are forgotten.

Actually it is our worthlessness that provides our means for forgiveness. Without our worthlessness and unworthiness, there would be no need for forgiveness. Frankly, I don't care what I leave behind in this world. I won't remember in in the next...I certainly hope not anyway.

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[edit on 23/2/08 by masqua]

reply to post by funky monk


with all due respect...funky...the bible and the belief in the writings of the bible's oringinal text, was close to 2,000 years ago. and with that in mind, consider what the difference is between our life right now and that of just 500 years ago...surely you can't suggest that what people belived in 2000 years ago, has the same relevance as does what the actual life we are experienceing today. sorry for the convoluted sentencing, but todays reality is completely different from what is was 2000 years ago

reply to post by idle_rocker


So if you dont remember anything from this life in the next, then what is the point of the next life?

Well, this thread has been dug back up, with still, no substantial proof that validates the pro evolutionists theory's.

God is the observer we are the observed.

There is evidence to be had by the individual for the existence of the spiritual, but you will never prove scientifically the existence of God, nor will you disprove it.

Only the individual can prove the things of God to himself, just as only the individual can interpret the word of God for himself.

Anything that I might do, such as perform a miracle or healing, for the people witnessing the manifestation, it will not be sufficient to prove the existence of God or of the spiritual, because it is an altered physical reality, and all physical reality has scientific explanations known or unknown.

For example; Jesus walking on the water, to the people seeing it, there was nothing non physical about it, water can be walked on if its state is changed, such as it is frozen, therefore the miracle can be explained scientifically and proves nothing.

All manifestation of supernatural power are like this, they can prove nothing to those who witness them.

If you as an individual walk on water, it can serve as evidence to you of the existence of the supernatural, because you being the one performing the miracle, know that you are not altering the state of the water by your own power or any physical means, but some other force is acting to make the miracle possible, whereas no one observing knows that fact, they either believe you when you tell them it was a miracle of God, or they don't and dismiss it as a trick or scientific manipulation.

You see, as an individual you can receive evidence personally by operating the power of God, but you can never provide another human being with that evidence, it is your faith God gives to you, it is your faith alone.

That is the difference between belief and faith, belief is what we give to ourselves, whereas faith is what God gives to us in return.

There are nine specific ways that I am aware of, in which any person who wills to, can manifest spiritual power and produce definable effects on reality.

God gives the power to overcome any circumstance of nature.

Unless you can and do, perform and participate in miracles and wonders via the manifestation of holy spirit, why should you believe what you are doing is real?

God is life not religion, He must be proven to be believed, this is why it is required of those who call upon His namesake to prove all things as by fire.

reply to post by jimmyx


Valid point.

As good as your point is Im going to have to disagree. If you look back at history - as in 2000+ years ago they were a lot more advanced in their knowledge of things. Take a look at pyramids, stonehenge. The enlightenment movement of the 16-17thC (I think) was born out of ancient belifs. Thats just my take on things any how.

-fm



[edit on 23-2-2008 by funky monk]

Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by funky monk

 

with all due respect...funky...the bible and the belief in the writings of the bible's oringinal text, was close to 2,000 years ago. and with that in mind, consider what the difference is between our life right now and that of just 500 years ago...surely you can't suggest that what people belived in 2000 years ago, has the same relevance as does what the actual life we are experienceing today. sorry for the convoluted sentencing, but todays reality is completely different from what is was 2000 years ago

Really?? Why not? what difference would it make. The bible is as current with the times today as then. Do we not live and die today like we did back then? Do we not suffer hardships, wrestle with greed, power, war famine today like we did back then? The Bible is actually waaaaaay ahead of us in terms of what it says willl be and the prophesy that has already been made patent. If I were to put this in a more simple a more academic perspective, we can look at the bible as a guide to what life is about. Unless of course you're an atheists determined to stay thaty way then we have nothing to share but I don't get that vibe from you entirely.

So if we wanted to know if we make a difference if we have a purpose EVEN IF you are an atheist, you are subject to your own belief that we actually have no reason per-se for being here we just "happened" we live and we die, period, No choices at all none, dead ipso facto. In that regard Atheisms only promise is just that, you can have faith in dying a certain predictable death. Like they say, Nature is brutally indifferen't that way.

Now if the Bible were say a rule book for the game of BaseBall and we all know how old the Bible is and we know how old baseball is.

HOWEVER, if I were to imagine the same old baseball book 2000 years from now and gave it to those people living then seeing if how they would play it. With the exception of perhaps some differences in interpretation, they would be playing the game of Baseball the same way trying to get to Home by the rules layed out in the book.

The Bible is cool like that.

It's a timeless

Classic

- Con

[edit on 23-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

After reading another entire thread much much more scientific then this one (they have some very sharp cookies over here on both sides of the debate) science.slashdot.org...

I have seen once again evolutionist having to rely on blind assumptions using the word so many times I lost count. "One must assume" assuming this happend would bring about this or that blah blah blah. Much to easy to bend your assumptions to fit the theory. Science is supposed to test a theory and come up with a hypothesis. Looks like evolution Started with one and keeps repeating since 1857.

At least theists admit what they believe takes faith but evolution,, ha ha ha unless I had a reason to hate the mere suggestion of a creator I guess I would use it as a crutch to support my atheism but Ill take the Bible over that Biobabble any day. Assuming = I believe= faith. Natural selection by "Random" "Chance" mutation = Luck.

Yeah,, good luck with that.

Sheesh

- Con

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

i hate to break it to you, but that's the argument ad populum, which is a logical fallacy and proves absolutely nothing

logical fallacy? No it isn't, just because it is the most accepted opinion by the mainstream doesn't make it true for that reason no more then it makes it wrong. The argument here is either the masses are asses OR they aren't as dumb as one might think. Bottom line is when Dawkins uses that Burden of proof to say the onus is on the person making the claim against what is the most widely accepted assumption.

That suggests by sheer numbers alone, proving god's existence is the burden of Science to prove he doesn't and not one of Religion to prove he does.

or they could just be ignorant of the evidence, undereducated, and/or denying it based on religious grounds.

That also holds true to believe evolution on Atheisms religious grounds. Their are few faults if any you can find in religion that can't be observed in Atheism.

Unless you think believing in God is a fault, I would also add

I believe that to a fault.

Oh well,, I'm KoO

Like that

- Con













[edit on 23-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Raistlyyn


The point of the next life is to live in harmony with the rest of those who believe like me and worship our God...not to regret what we have done on earth...those things are forgiven and forgotten. There is no reason to remember them if God, who has forgiven them, has also forgotten them.