You be the judge...

I always wondered what would happen to some people who commit murder, commit suicide, etc. Here's a scenario...

Phil (I'm using random names here for this example), shoots John and after years have past, Phil decided to repent and commit himself to a religion (Islam, Judaism, Christianity, etc) and became a real good person... but the person he murdered, was an atheist and hasn't done anything wrong (a good person... minus the religion) and was maybe considering in committing himself to a religion, but couldn't get the time ...

Who would go to Hell? Phil... or John?

And... Let's say Chuck was a good child/person. But EVERYONE didn't like him (for a good reason, or a stupid reason) and started picking on him (in childhood or in adulthood, doesn't matter). And pushed him so far that he commits suicide...

Who is going to Hell? Chuck... or everyone who pushed him? Or those who REALLY pushed him over the edge?

And if there is people who can't make the final judgement... How can God?

This binary system of Heaven and Hell, sometimes makes me wonder of who is worthy and who isn't.

Good thought and I once questioned these very things till I came to a point where I believe that it really isn't that black and white. I think it's what has been indocturned in us to believe and accept.

Nor do I think that God necessarily doles out punishment if you will in that way. I mean take Moses for example. He spent 40 days and nights leading his people to the land of milk and honey. Back breaking work IMO and then he becomes angry and hits the rock and God tells him after all of that that Moses cannot now go into the land of milk and honey.
Ok whether that's an actual account I don't know but it' s in the bible and IMO says to me that God really flew off the handle on that one whereas Cain kills Abel and only gets banished from the land. Where the punishment fits the crime there?

My point? I don't believe it's God that doles out anything. I believe that what we put out in the universe we get back...good, bad or indifferent.
We are responsible for ourselves individually so if we live our lives honestly and truthfully then we will go to a better place regardless of who did what to us.
This is our experience a human experience and as brutal as we sometimes may be we can repent and change ourselves. I think that is the point. So the man that killed the other guy finds God and redeems himself has that priviledge, I think that is the point is to experience and feel, love and learn.

reply to post by The_unraveller



I'd say none of them go to heaven OR hell. I think the entire concept of heaven and hell is simply to scare people into not being "bad".

For the sake of your argument, though, my answer would be that I've been confused by the very same thing. Why is it that a mass murderer can live a life of death and hatred, but repent on his death bed, accept Jesus, and go to heaven, whereas someone like myself, who is agnostic is going to hell no matter how 'good' I live my life?

For a supposedly 'just' God, his sense of Justice seems WAY off the mark.

I am agnostic as well, its just a thing that bothers me... When I look at religion, I see it as 2 possibilities (like a binary system)... either its true, or it isn't. And when I look at the any religion (or anything for that matter)... everything is binary.

If you live a good life and follow God's word to the letter, you get eternal peace and harmony... and you don't do God's bidding, you get eternal misery and suffering. And unfortunately the bible gives people only 1 of 2 choices. Which is quite a vast choice... with a hint of sarcasm.

DDay wrote:

So the man that killed the other guy finds God and redeems himself has that priviledge

But what happens to the atheist? Is he the unfortunate sacrifice? I understand what you are trying to tell me... but what happens to them, if their actions contradict each other? The atheist who committed a petty crime (no belief in a God)and is on his way to repent and see the error of his ways, but couldn't, because he was killed... where the other committed a serious crime by killing the atheist and then repenting afterwards... That is sort of skipping the person in front of you in a 2-person queue, where the last person gets kicked out.

And what about "Chuck", the good boy/guy who is a strong believer, etc, etc. who got pushed so far, to take the only option he had left? I know some would say that he should go to hell, because he took his life and he should've continued to perservere. Let's say it went so horrible people hated him no matter what... picked on him, scorned at him, beaten him, no parents, cruel foster-parents, unemployed, etc, etc... the things nightmares are made of. Then along came a person (or a group of people) and gave him the final push... Who goes to hell... the one who pushed him or Chuck?

I know this thread is going to be dead in the next 6-12 hours (probably earlier, read my custom titles under my username)... But, thanks in anyways guys...

Originally posted by The_unraveller
Who would go to Hell? Phil... or John?

Who is going to Hell? Chuck... or everyone who pushed him? Or those who REALLY pushed him over the edge?

There's no point in asking this question of a believer, the answer is already in the Bible. Looks like cage-rattling for non-believers to me and I question the point of this thread. I hope I'm wrong. If so, feel free to U2U me so we can discuss in detail.

Originally posted by The_unraveller
And if there is people who can't make the final judgement... How can God?

Are you suggesting people's judgement would be better/greater/more fair than God? This doesn't make sense.

[edit on 31-8-2007 by saint4God]

Cain for example has his own importance maybe more than Moses did which out fit a punishment for example bringing population of many to earth to do the work. Moses killed a man yes but his mission was greater than the crime maybe to help save him self as the last on the list of good things he had to do.

God of the Bible will judge on non believers for their own good merits that is explained, it's the Christians who turn away who are more in trouble.

Ok I'll resurrect this thread (ha no pun intended)

Unraveller - as I said in my previous post. The atheist is responsible for his own being not that of what was done to him, that is the responsiblility of the other guy. Ok now we are getting into the religious aspect of this and I really didn't want to go here because...well it could get nasty.

But...I personally think the Bible is a book a guide if you will just as there are many self help books on the market only this one happens to be the most published and purchased book of all time and WHY? Because man decided to make it a religion that there was only one way to get to the pearly gates. I think it's a huge misconception. I think we are given a basic set of rules to abide by as well as a will to carry out our deeds.

So the agnostic, atheist, and "christian" may not subscribe to the same beliefs but we are all accountable for our personal actions and that is how we are judged.