jesus did exist, face it!

reply to post by janasstar


if this is repeated forgive, I typed it once and it didn't show up. So, having to do it again.

Ooops! My apologies! I see my error. I realize now we are discussing existence of Jesus. My thinking trailed off to validity of bible as a whole, and whether Jesus was the Son of God.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by Clearskies
Why don't you renounce cowardice and ASK JESUS if he is real,

i did a few times, with all my heart, but i got no answer... maybe he was too busy vaguely appearing on a tortilla to give me one...
the issue here isn't about anything but history, you're not really contributing to this conversation

but *WARNING* Get ready to repent!!! Ask him to forgive you and change you. If you don't do this, your life will go to hell in a handbasket, after he shows you the truth and you don't accept what's in front of your face.

honestly, that's sad. accept it or else...
not as benevolent as you'd say

If no one minds, I would like to address a few things here;

Madness, you say that you once did ask God for forgiveness, with all your heart, and got no answer. None of us do. That is, if you are expecting an audible answer. God is a Faith God. You cannot reach Him by the five senses. When you were scanning thru the scriptures, did you see the passage that said, "When you stand praying, believe you have received." ?? God promises in His Word that it is so, many times. He said, "If you come to Me, I'll in no wise cast you out.; and If you ask forgiveness of a sin, I will cast it as far from Me as the east is from the west, and cast it into the sea of forgetfulness and NEVER remember it against you again."
If we are going to believe anything in this book, we have to start by believing that God is not a liar, if He said it, then He meant it. The problem I see with a lot of ppl reading it, and seeing contradictions, is that it is being read with wrong purpose. Before my re-birth, I found it to be a pretty scary and confusing book. Now it's hard for me to see it as anything other than, from day one, when Adam fell; God set about redeeming him.

To expound on another point, I really wish that well-meaning christians wouldn't threaten people with hell-fire. That doesn't do anyone any good. Because if they don't believe in God, then they don't believe in hell, either. Why not show them the love and mercy of this Entity that we follow?

Originally posted by Clearskies
Why don't you renounce cowardice and ASK JESUS if he is real,

Sure..what's his number?

but *WARNING* Get ready to repent!!! Ask him to forgive you and change you.

Forgive me for what? What should I ask him to change? I just cut my hair, what else does he want from me?

If you don't do this, your life will go to hell in a handbasket, after he shows you the truth and you don't accept what's in front of your face.

Ummm...let's see here,

Should I go with "Cast the first stone" or "Judge not, lest ye be"

reply to post by kleverone


I see you've read the book, and even as a skeptic or non-believer, you've picked up on some good points. Sorry that some people insist on throwing the negative side of things. We do not all share our message in this manner.

the guy called Jesus probably DID exist.
He probably DID spread his teachings
but i seriously doubt that he performed miracles.

as many things in history, people EXAGGERATE.
His supporters may have wanted him to seem more "godlike" so they added lots of "miracles"

he probably also DID die at the hands of the Romans but his "resurrected" self was probably an impersonator, again, his supporters thought that up.

Originally posted by open mind
I am fed up with people denying jesus' existence, whether you are religous or not their are plenty of non religious sources from people that we KNOW exist, claiming the Jesus existed. Whether you believe in his teachings or not, is up to you.

I agree; he existed.

But don't you think it is better to follow his teachings rather than to believe a historical Jesus existed? The bible is tangible and the teachings attributed to Jesus in the NT are perfect teachings for all men.

LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF

no greater instruction than that!!!!
if we'd all follow that, then there would be world peace, no hunger, no violence, no poverty, no injustice!!

That was/is the whole purpose, from the start!!!

Originally posted by kleverone
Forgive me for what? What should I ask him to change? I just cut my hair, what else does he want from me?

Get a real job (like your big brother Bob!!)

jk!!!

reply to post by queenannie38


Now you and I both know that is never gonna happen. Ever

Sorry, back on topic.

From what I've read, there is a decent amount of indirect, circumstantial evidence that Jesus was a real man that existed as a religious figure at one time. Many non-religious scholars believe this to be true.

So lets say he was real... So what? What does it prove beyond the point that a man named Jesus was once alive.

Here is the real miracle


Jesus did exist

no one can really ever know who he was or wasn't
we will never prove whether he performed any miracles or not
or if he rose from the dead
what we do ALL know
and what cannot be denied
here we all are over 2000 years lafter his death
still discussing it all - and still caring about it
still teaching what he has done and said
his story-his name and his word
are known worldwide.

Is this not alone enough of a miracle for us all to accept that whoever he was
We all pale in comparison
maybe believing in him wouldn't be such a bad idea
Something about him
no matter what it was, or is
is more than just your average humen
something about him made him matter to us all VERY VERY much
and that something is still as powerful and alive as it was the night of his birth



who else among us
throughout the history of the world
can compete with this?

does it matter if he was the son of god, or if he was just a man?
did he really perform miracles?
my love~~~~~
HE IS A MIRACLE

..............................just something to think about.....

renee

And so what about Moses?

Did Moses exist?

He certainly made quite an impression.

Originally posted by open mind
I am fed up with people denying jesus' existence, whether you are religous or not their are plenty of non religious sources from people that we KNOW exist, claiming the Jesus existed. Whether you believe in his teachings or not, is up to you.

I am fed up with people denying UFOs' existence, their are plenty of sources from people that we KNOW exist, claiming the UFOs existed.

So what?

Iasion

Originally posted by open mind
www.probe.org...

this is just one of many. Type 'historic evidence of jesus christ' into google and check out the results. i am not trying to covert people, just proving his existance. i don't care whether you believe is his miracles, just as long as you know he existed

Well,
I checked this so-called "evidence".
Here is what I found :

Greetings all,

I see there has been some discussion about whether Jesus really existed as a historical person.

I see many posters claim there is "Roman records" for Jesus, and other historical evidence.

Being interested in history, I have checked this evidence, and present the results here as a list of writers or documents who are claimed to be evidence for Jesus, along with analysis of how significant they are.


JOSEPHUS (c.96CE)

The famous Testamonium Flavianum (the T.F.) in the Antiquities of the Jews is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems :
* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the devout Jew Josephus (who remained a Jew and refused to call anyone "messiah" in his book which was partly about how false messiahs kept leading Israel astray.),
* The T.F. comes in several variant versions of various ages,
* The T.F. was not mentioned by any of the early CHurch fathers who reviewed Josephus.
* Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.
* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.
* The other tiny passage in Josephus refers to Jesus, son of Damneus. The phrase "so-called Christ" may have been a later addition by a Christian who also mis-understood which Jesus was refered to.

An analysis of Josephus can be found here:
www.humanists.net...

In short - this passage is possibly a total forgery (or at best a corrupt form of a lost original.)
But, yes,
it COULD just be actual evidence for Jesus - late, corrupt, controversial but just POSSIBLY real historical evidence.


TACITUS (c.112CE)

Roughly 80 years after the alleged events (and 40 years after the war) Tacitus allegedly wrote a (now) famous passage about "Christ" - this passage has several problems however:
* Tacitus uses the term "procurator", used in his later times, but not correct for the actual period, when "prefect" was used.
* Tacitus names the person as "Christ", when Roman records could not possibly have used this name (it would have been "Jesus, son of Joseph" or similar.)
* This passage is paraphrased by Sulpicius Severus in the 5th century without attributing it to Tacitus, and may have been inserted back into Tacitus from this work.

This evidence speaks AGAINST it being based on any Roman records -
but
merely a few details which Tacitus gathered from Christian stories circulating in his time (c.f. Pliny.)
So,
this passage is NOT evidence for Jesus,
it's just evidence for 2nd century Christian stories about Jesus.
oll.libertyfund.org...


PLINY the Younger (c.112CE)

About 80 years after the alleged events, (and over 40 years after the war) Pliny referred to Christians who worshipped a "Christ" as a god, but there is no reference to a historical Jesus or Gospel events.
So,
Pliny is not evidence for a historical Jesus of Nazareth,
just evidence for 2nd century Christians who worshipped a Christ.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...


SUETONIUS (c.115CE)

Roughly 80-90 years after the alleged Gospel events, (about 75 years after the war) Suetonius refers to a "Chrestus" who stirred the Jews to trouble in Rome during Claudius' time, but:
* this "Chrestus" is a Greek name (from "useful"), and is also a mystic name for an initiate, it is not the same as "Christos"
* this Chrestus was apparently active in Rome, Jesus never was.
So,
this passage is not evidence for Jesus,
it's nothing to do with Jesus,
it's evidence for Christians grasping at straws.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...


IGNATIUS (107CE? 130-170CE?)

The letters of Ignatius are traditionally dated to c.107, yet:
* it is not clear if he really existed, his story is suspicious,
* his letters are notoriously corrupt and in 2 versions,
* it is probable that his letters were later forgeries,
* he mentions only a tiny few items about Jesus.
So,
Ignatius is no evidence for Jesus himself,
at BEST it is 2nd century evidence to a few beliefs about Jesus.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...

continued ....

...

QUADRATUS (c.125CE)

Quadratus apparently wrote an Apology to Hadrian (117-138), but:
* we have none of his works,
* it is not certain when he wrote,
* all we have is 1 sentence quoted much later.
So,
Quadratus is uncertain evidence from about a century later.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...


THALLUS (date unknown)

We have NO certain evidence when Thallus lived or wrote, there are NONE of Thallus' works extant.
What we DO have is a 9th century reference by George Syncellus who quotes the 3rd century Julianus Africanus, who, speaking of the darkness at the crucifixion, wrote: "Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse".
But,
there is NO evidence Thallus made specific reference to Jesus or the Gospel events at all, as there WAS an eclipse in 29. This suggests he merely referred to a known eclipse, but that LATER Christians MIS-interpreted his comment to mean their darkness. (Also note the supposed reference to Thallus in Eusebius is a false reading.)

Richard Carrier the historian has a good page on Thallus:
www.infidels.org...

So,
Thallus is no evidence for Jesus at all,
merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.


PHLEGON (c.140)

Phlegon wrote during the 140s - his works are lost. Later, Origen, Eusebius, and Julianus Africanus (as quoted by George Syncellus) refer to him, but quote differently his reference to an eclipse. There is no evidence Phlegon actually said anything about Gospel events, he was merely talking about an eclipse (they DO happen) which LATER Christians argued was the "darkness" in their stories.
So,
Phlegon is no evidence for Jesus at all -
merely evidence for Christian wishful thinking.


VALENTINUS (c.140CE)

In mid 2nd century the GNOSTIC Valentinus almost became Bishop of Rome, but:
* he was several generations after the alleged events,
* he wrote of an esoteric, Gnostic Jesus and Christ,
* he mentioned no historical details about Jesus.
So,
Valentinus is no evidence for a historical Jesus.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...


POLYCARP (c.155CE)

Polycarp wrote in mid 2nd century, but :
* he is several generations after the alleged events,
* he gives many sayings of Jesus (some of which do NOT match the Gospels),
* he does NOT name any evangelist or Gospel.
So,
Polycarp knew sayings of Jesus,
but provides no actual evidence for a historical Jesus.
www.earlychristianwritings.com...


LUCIAN (c.170CE)

Nearly one-and-a-half CENTURIES after the alleged events, Lucian satirised Christians, but :
* this was several generations later,
* Lucian does NOT even mention Jesus or Christ by name.
So,
Lucian is no evidence for a historical Jesus, merely late 2nd century lampooning of Christians.


GALEN (late 2nd C.)

Late 2nd century, Galen makes a few references to Christians, and briefly to Christ.
This is far too late to be evidence for Jesus.


NUMENIUS (2nd C.?)

In the 3rd century, Origen claimed Numenius "quotes also a narrative regarding Jesus--without, however, mentioning His name" - i.e. Numenius mentioned a story but said nothing about Jesus, but by Origen's time it had become attached to Jesus' name.
This not any evidence for Jesus, it's just later wishful thinking.


TALMUD (3rd C. and later)

There are some possible references in the Talmud, but:
* these references are from 3rd century or later, and seem to be (unfriendly) Jewish responses to Christian claims.
* the references are highly variant, have many cryptic names for Jesus, and very different to the Gospel stories (e.g. one story has "Jesus" born about 100BC.)
So,
the Talmud contains NO evidence for Jesus,
the Talmud merely has much later Jewish responses to the Gospel stories.



MARA BAR SERAPION (date unknown)

A fragment which includes -
"... What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King?",
in the context of ancient leaders like Socrates.
It is NOT at all clear WHEN this manuscript was written, nor exactly who it is referring too, but there is no evidence it is Jesus.


In short,
* there are no Roman recods of Jesus,
* there is no contemporary evidence for Jesus,
* the claimed evidence is very weak - late, forged, suspect or not about Jesus at all.
* the T.F. is probably the best "evidence", but it is at best corrupt, at worst forged.


Iasion

Originally posted by Valhall
Concerning the hand-waving of the Josephus reference to Jesus. This is why there will never be proof of his existence. A contemporary noted his existence

Josephus was NOT a contemporary.
You should check the facts before making such false claims.

Originally posted by Valhall
and it is declared to most likely have been "inserted by a pious scribe"....yeah, prove that statement. Prove that statement first and then we will strike Josephus's statement as evidence of Jesus.

Prove that it is genuine.
You can't.

Because history does not "prove".
It provides evidence and argument.

The argument why Josephus is considered an interpolation is very well known. Obviously you have never studied this subject at all.


* the T.F. as it stands uses clearly Christian phrases and names Christ as Messiah, it could not possibly have been written by the devout Jew Josephus (who remained a Jew and refused to call anyone "messiah" in his book which was partly about how false messiahs kept leading Israel astray.),

* The T.F. comes in several variant versions of various ages,

* The T.F. was not mentioned by any of the early CHurch fathers who reviewed Josephus.

* Origen even says Josephus does NOT call Jesus the Messiah, showing the passage was not present in that earlier era.

* The T.F. first showed up in manuscripts of Eusebius, and was still absent from some manuscripts as late as 8th century.

Originally posted by Valhall
So go prove Josephus' recorded statement was not his own and come back and present it. But don't rote a statement that has no supporting data behind it and then expect people to just set Josephus' statement aside.

Sure,
the argument is presented here :
www.humanists.net...

But you won't even open the page, will you?


Iasion

Why do you keep having to try and convince us that Jesus does exist? Is it because your having doubts yourself? This is common in human nature to reassure ourselves that our beliefs are true. I've seen no evidence or proof of the existence of Jesus apart from the Bible. I've seen many things to discredit the Bible and many comparisons of Christianity to earlier religions, with striking resemblances. As far as I'm concerned religion is a load of dross and causes more problems than it solves. I'm very happy to be free of such constraints. I actually find Religion......Laughable!!

Originally posted by Valhall
Oh, and while you're off proving Josephus didn't say what Josephus said, please also gather all the evidence to prove Peter didn't say what Peter said in all his epistles. Because according to my records, Peter hung out with Jesus, so I think we could call him a "contemporary".

The epistles of "Peter" were forged by someone else who never knew Jesus.
That is the consensus of modern NT scholars.
Not that you would know that.

Originally posted by Valhall
* Josephus

Forged after Jesus' time.

Originally posted by Valhall
* Peter

Forged after Jesus' time.

Originally posted by Valhall
* Gospels

Christian preaching from unknown persons, after Jesus' time.

Modern NT scholars agree that NONE of the Gospels was written by anyone who met any Jesus.

In fact -
modern NT scholars agree that NOT ONE BOOK of the NT was written by anyone who met any Jesus.

Originally posted by Valhall
* Tacitus

Repeated Christian beliefs 80 years after Jesus.

Originally posted by Valhall
The burden of proof is to invalidate as authentic each of these accounts of Jesus' existence.

Scholars have done just that.
Modern NT scholars agree that NOT ONE BOOK of the NT, or ANY OTHER Christian writing was written by anyone who met any Jesus.

I have examined this "evidence" for Jesus above.

NONE of it stands up to scrutiny.

NONE of it is contemporary.

NONE of it was by anyone who met any Jesus.

Originally posted by Valhall
Until then, it appears we've got quite a bit of documentation.

False.
We have NO contemporary documentation.
We have NO historical evidence for Jesus.
We have NOTHING written by anyone who met Jesus.


Iasion

Originally posted by Valhall
We're talking about that there really was a man named Jesus who is written about by a fair number of folks from various walks of life.

No contemporary writer mentioned Jesus.
There is no historical evidence for Jesus.

All we have is CLAIMS preached by people who BELIEVE those claims.

Do you believe what Muslims preach about Mohamed?
No.

Do you believe what Hindus preach about Krishna?
No.

Do you believe what Egyptians preach about Osiris?
No.


So why do you believe what Christians preach about Jesus?

Hmmm?



Iasion

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
Well let's look at it in another way, without all the facts from documented history but just the facts of physics and life.... First off, for those of us who do believe, well when we die, we have the chance at eternal salvation, to live in Heaven for Eternity.. For those here on the planet who don't believe in Christ, well you only get to take an eternal dirt nap... Now the other thing everyone needs to realize is that someday, no matter who you are, how much money you have, how well you eat, it all comes to an end and you die... So would you rather have the chance to live for eternity or just know that you are going to push up flowers and rot??? As the old saying goes, the cruelist joke satan played on the human race was convincing them they would live forever.

Pascal's wager.

An ancient and very childish preaching -
we better believe in this God, else we may suffer for eternity IF he exists.

Well GrndLkNatv,
you better become a Muslim in case THEY are right....

No wait,
you better become a Hindu in case THEY are right....

Um no....
you better become a Satanist in case THEY are right....


How silly.


Iasion

Originally posted by janasstar
What about the Dead Sea Scrolls? I know that they contain mostly writings predating Jesus, but according to prophecy, Jesus fulfilled every prophecy written about him in the OT. I haven't heard any updates since the finding of these precious old documents; but the judeo/christian world hasn't been set on it's ear as far as I know.

Jesus did not fulfill any prophecies.
It's just nonsense and wishful thinking.

The Jews WROTE the OT -
do THEY think Jesus is prophesied in the OT?

No.

But Christians think they know BETTER than the JEWS, what the JEWISH scriptures say - such arrogance, such ignorance.


Q.