Prayer, and the Divine plan Logic vs Religion

Originally posted by DarkSide

Because, for me anyway, the idea of non-existance is unbearable. I want to exist, I want to experience. As an atheist that's how I feel, so I'm either a lost soul or a disillusioned biologicalmachine.

You're a"lost" soul according to who? Those who claim to know the mind of God?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
You're a"lost" soul according to who? Those who claim to know the mind of God?

Not at all. If the term "lost soul" has a special meaning in religion then I'm not aware of it, I seem to remember the term refering to those destined for hell.

What I meant was, is that while being atheist I don't like the idea of death being the end but at the same time I can't find any logical reason as to why I should live on after it. I'm not the kind of atheist that thinks life is good as it is and death is a well-deserved peace.

You know ... it is kinda pointless to ask a set up question about something you have no intention of opening your mind to ... and in turn, it makes no sense for someone to answer you, when your only response will be of a denying, debunking nature.

Someone said they prayed for something specific, you say coincidence ... so ... the only true way for you to not dismiss something ... would be a string of personal prayers, methodically prayed in words laid out written by a lawyer ... and even then, you could still chalk it up to chance if you wished.

Well, you have the right to feel the way you do. Those who feel otherwise have the right to not have their personal experiences made out to be random chance. You can disagree, but to dismiss without consideration is a little ... well, it doesn't require much thought.

First, let us get to the point ... not all Christians believe the same things ... in fact, not all people of a particular denomination believe the same things, and there are people who believe that most denominations have become corrupt/deceitful/misleading. A blanket statement about the 'Christian' can never be very accurate. I will say that my idea and understanding of God ... falls away from the many times re-written 'word' of God by man. I try to see past the human agendas and see the real message in the stories.

I even take the time to think ... if I was as powerful as God ... how would I be ... well, loving, forgiving, caring ... what can I base this on? Well ... owning pets, helping friends rear their children and babysitting ... I don't scold, abuse, yell at the animals and children ... I teach through love. I don't give treats and candy to the pets and children everytime they ask, because it isn't good for them, though they think it is. I don't always make my presence known, so I can watch them and sometimes even guide them without direct contact, because people learn from their own experiences more than by being told or someone doing it for them. I see God as more than just a parent/pet owner ... so God would be all of those things, and much more. More moral, more loving, and have better foresight than I. I admit, some people cannot see in this way, whether their family life was not so nice, or they themselves don't have enough patience and love in their hearts (which in my opinion, they shouldn't have pets or children ... for the pet and child's sake). God is Love ... but that doesn't mean he answers all prayers ... sometimes we have to learn on our own, sometimes he guides us, but still lets us have the experience, and sometimes ... we are just better off without the thing that we are asking for, no matter what it is.

Another point of interest ... how many prayers are for selfish reasons? How many prayers are of PURE intent, pure love. I would contend ... praying for a loved one's recovery in a selfish manner, is still a selfish prayer. I have lost people close to me ... they were ready to go, if they ask you not to pray, and you do, then who are you really praying for? To accept that some things are meant to happen ... even if they seem bad ... in the bigger picture, in the long term, it may have been for the best. This doesn't mean I think people deserve to suffer, on the contrary, I wish no one did, myself included. I cannot explain, nor should I try to, on why certain things happen, the timing of things ... they just do.

I would say, an equal amount of logic would lead you to both decisions ... if you hold faith in science, then you may easily believe that we came from ooze over billions of years ... that scientists, being men, are infallible in their assertions about the age of the universe, the world, and have made technology without error. That the conclusions they have agreed upon are all found on solid ground and they can actually prove, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, but PROVE all of their ideas and there are NO discrepancies in the data whatsoever. OR ... you can believe that there is something that is smarter than us, more knowledgeable, more powerful, and created everything with a Divine 'plan' in mind. This Divinity is like a parent, and loves its creations ... though, like a good parent, gives the children what they NEED but NOT everything they WANT. Being a parent would give you the foresight to see what is bad for the child in the future, no matter how much it may give the child temporary happiness.

Do I think I need to convert people to my religion? No. It says to let them know, then let them come on their own. Someone forced into it, doesn't truly believe ... so it is effort for nothing. You have to find it for yourself. It is not in my power to force you to believe ... and it is not in God's interest to force you to believe either ... it is YOUR CHOICE.

With no influence from religion, and I say this, because I didn't have a lot of it in plain sight in my life ... I didn't go to church, it wasn't discussed in my family ... without any 'corruption' as some atheists may call it ... I found on my own how disturbing science was ... how many leaps of faith you had to take to believe what they teach you ... how their foundations were based on ideas of men (and women) ... that their truth is based on assumptions and unprovable theories that are at times quite wild! I am not saying all science is hogwash ... just a large load of it. To me, the accuracy of judging the distance of stars/galaxies ... the dating of the universe/solar system ... it seems more based on faith of their analysis and instruments than anything. If we weren't there during those times ... our aging of carbon dating is based on assumptions ... our dating of the stars are also based on assumptions of shifting of light, and our current ideas of what is in space ... disregarding our lack of knowledge of galactic and universal physics ... since we study from a spec of dust ... we don't even equate to a quark on the grand scale of it all. If you look through the topics, you can see we are going through a period of new learning ... speed of light may not be constant in a vaccum ... gravity and magnetism and its effects are being expanded on. To believe science as fact, takes a lot of 'faith' ... I fully argue as much faith as religion. The simple stuff is accurate ... the complex stuff is not as clear as they make it.

To me, the Divine plan and prayer are all about selfless love.

Originally posted by norbin
Although I don't believe in God, I want to know the reasoning behind every Christian for their prayer. And their claims of them being answered.

1. When I was between 6 & 10 years old . . . we were poor and lived on another part of the land we now live on but the last acre of what was a larger farm. We lived in a very humble mud hut.

One day, a very rare (for this 4 corners area) twister--small tornado came up and lifted the tin corrogated roofing sheets off our chicken houses and barns, sheds. about 2-300 feet from our hut. Mother saw them being brought by the wind toward our hut and prayed for Jesus to help us, protect us.

On the two sides of the hut exposed to the twister--especially the South side--I went out with a ruler because I didn't believe what my parents were saying. But, sure enough--you could virtually draw a straight line by the chaotic tin sheets--they were 1.5" from the house and no closer--they were cris-crossed and chaotic--a sea of tin--but it was like there was an invisible barrier 1.5" from the house--and a straight line could have been drawn along that 'invisible barrier' where the tin stopped at--forming a straight line.

2. Another time when we still lived in the mud hut--and were quite poor--we had a field of hay drying. It would be ruined if it got rained on. We could not afford that. It would have ruined us and we might have lost the place.

But there was a characteristic rain storm coming up the river. And that sort of a rain storm tended to rain on our place good, including the hay field. Mother prayed and asked God to spare our drying hay.

The rain storm came on up the river as usual . . . and it rained on 4 sides of that drying hay but did not rain on the hay. Our hay and farm were saved. Praise God for mother's prayers and His answering compassionately.

3. Another time I was in high school, I think. I was extremely emotionally depressed, alone, desperate . . . my mother was a crazy making sort of 'damned if I did and damned if I didn't' sort of person from her own crazy childhood.

I was standing in the middle of the church her father had founded and built. And I had been crying out desperately to God at least all day if not several days and certainly in the prayer service after the preaching and song service. Didn't seem like I'd gotten any answer.

Yet again, standing alone in the middle of the church, I desperately cried out to God for a sign that He cared etc.

A few moments later, I felt this large hand grip my shoulder very firmly but warmly. We had a 6'6" man in the church and I turned around expecting to see him. The grip was VERY firm yet still warm and friendly.

No one was within 30-50 feet of me in all directions.

There have been many other answers to prayer in my life and in the lives of those I know and love. But those are 3 interesting ones.

I see a sad pattern around me where a lot of Christians turn to prayer, and hope of gods guiding hands to turn up in a bad situation.

Not sad at all.

But God is NOT a vending machine at our beck and call to do as we think he ought.

He IS ALMIGHTY GOD.

And, there are lots of reasons for unanswered prayer or prayer answered with "No" or "not yet."

Most of the time it's our own disobedience. Folks--even most Christians--are inclined to live like the devil and then expect God to bail them out of the worst of their harvesting what they've sown. God doesn't tend to play that game the way most folks want Him to.

And, there's some measure of faith required, usually.

Certainly, there are many times when God is merciful and just graciously answers prayer regardless of disobedience and a slackard's faith on our part. His Love is beyond measure and sometimes He just blesses us whether we deserve it, or not.

Henry Wright is a pastor increasingly respected in the medical community for having 70% or more of various diseases healed under his ministry.

His book: A MORE EXCELLENT WAY is a great treatise on the whole topic of God healing mental, emotional & physical ills and why God often doesn't.

He was dismayed in earlier years as a pastor to observe that only about 5% of the folks he prayed for were healed.

He wrestled with God about that for some time. Finally, God began to lead him through Scripture and show him why folks were not healed.

Sometimes it was ancesteral demonic and reaping stuff. There's a Scripture about the sins of the father being visited upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation.

Sometimes it is because folks are themselves or have been dabbling in the occult, idolatry and other stuff strictly forbidden in Scripture.

Sometimes it's because of self-hate, etc. due to a mangled childhood from horrid parenting that the individual has not overcome in a Biblical way.

etc.

For example, Pastor Wright is something of a famous expert on various kinds of cancers. He can, now, from extensive research and experience usually tell the person without a lot of prayer or discernment--what their spiritual problem is that left a door open for satan to afflict them with a specific kind of cancer. Specific cancers tend to go with specific sorts of spiritual problems, relationship problems etc.

Anyway--one Sunday evening, I think it was . . . a very typical thing happened . . . this woman came up to him after the service and wanted prayer. She was going to have a large malignant cancerous tumor surgically removed the following day.

Pastor Wright no longer just prays for folks because he's asked. He will inquire sufficiently first to know whether the prayer has any likelhihood of success, or not.

He asked what kind of cancer etc. and prayerfully pondered a few moments, as I recall. Then he said to the woman that she had some relationshp problems she had to clear up first.

There was bitterness, unforgiveness etc. and she had to change the way she was living about those things--but NOT just to get healed--she had to do so--to purpose in her heart--to decide to live and walk in forgiveness etc. BECAUSE IT WAS THE RIGHT, GODLY, BIBLICAL THING TO DO and her reasonable service to God. He sent her off by herself for some minutes to prayerfully consider whether she could do that earnestly, genuinely, or not.

She came back and said she could and would and had forgiven etc. and would communicate such at her earliest opportunity.

Pastor Wright was satisfied in his heart, spirit, mind that the woman was telling the truth and prayed for her.

the next day, she went for the scheduled surgery. The medical team was doing some preliminary checking again and then did more extensive testing . . .

They could not find a single even HINT that the woman had EVER had ANY KIND OF CANCER AT ALL--much less a big malignant tumor. Her body was totally free of cancer and all hints and evidences of cancer.

Pastor Wright has 100's upon 100's of such cases likely thousands, by now, in his files.

The book is a hefty book full of Scripture but well worth the time for ANYONE TRULY SERIOUS ABOUT HEALING and willing to pay the price of doing things God's way to receive their healing.

Pastor Wright has become a medical community recognized expert at facilitating the healing of a number of incurable diseases.

to be continued.

Originally posted by norbin
And their claims of them being answered.

Call it "claims" if you wish. I know what my reality was in each situation. It's no claim. It's just a description of the reality that happened.

In my opinion this is toxic thinking.

Not at all. The toxic thinking is the lie from the pit of hell that there is no God or that God is not altogether good; altogether loving. Or the lie that individuals can successfully be their own gods and order their own lives their own ways with impunity and successfully. That's not reality. That's a toxic deception.

But this is because I think you are waiting around for the guidance of something that is not there.

God is not in the habit of routinely granting folks who give Him the fingier and insist on doing things their own way--He's not in the habit of giving such folks significant evidence that His wisdom etc. are easily available to one and all. He has provided evidence in His Word. Occasionally he makes a case by case exception if a heart is sufficiently open to the truth.

But usually, He requires folks to at least make a decision and some persistent efforts to meet Him part way--such as by obeying His standards, boundaries, requirements, criteria for a genuine RELATIONSHIP.

He wants to be our FRIEND, not our vending machine.

He has stooped to our level in Christ dying for us on a cruel cross. But generally, He requires that we at least seek to reach up to Him according to His ways and plans for TRUE RELATIONSHIP. And, . . . HE'S THE BOSS. It's His way or the highway.

Matthew 18:19
Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

According to what I understand, this is about prayer, so what this says is that god will automatically help if we all just come together and pray?

Yes and no. There is significant added spiritual power in a group of believers in right relationship with God agreeing in earnest, heart-felt prayer about a given request, situation, concern. That's one reason satan works so hard to keep Christians at each other's throats. He knows the huge power God has decreed would exist in unified Christian prayer.

However, even a group of earnest believers agreeing in unity toward a concern does NOT turn God into an automatic robotic vending machine.

God still has His own perspective, criteria, timing, ways of answsering etc.

It's been said that Goid always answers prayer:

1. Yes
2. No
3. Wait.

I would add--sometimes, it's silence. I think often silence means, the pray-er hasn't cleaned up their act sufficiently for an overt dialogue to be a priority with God.

Well it's what it says right? But when has this ever worked. I'm sure at church you've prayed for someone who is sick and dying, or something bad happening elsewhere in the earth. And though you think you are doing those other people good, it's really just pointless. No matter how many people pray or how many times you pray, the outcomes are always the same as if you never prayed at all.

NOT AT ALL. God evidently 'bottles the prayers and tears up' as a precious perfume etc. in heaven. Prayers in the prayer bank are never wasted.

They at least bless the folks doing the praying. And, they often are held in reserve until a fitting time for God to answer.

Many times, God has to lead a given individual through a series of stretching experiences to get them into the place where an answer to prayer will truly bless them and not end up hurting them more than the problem they had in the first place.

God is not likely to let someone find a gold brick if the gold brick will suddenly become an idol to the person replacing God in the person's life.

God says that He would that we

PROSPER AND BE IN HEALTH

--EVEN AS OUR SOUL/SPIRIT PROSPERS--IS IN ROBUST RIGHT, GROWING RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD--WALKING CLOSE TO HIM.

So there's a conditional component to prospering and being in health.

What parent would rear children--giving them extra money and privileges for rebellion and violence? God's not an idiot!

He knows that life on this planet and certainly eternal life . . . BLESSINGS, BENEFITS . . .

MUST BE CONTINGENT ON DOING THINGS GOD'S WAY.

Perfection must be protected. He will not allow rebellion to destroy His Perfection.

So maybe you know what i'm talking about and you have prayed for someone, and they have died. I can guess that your response would be that it's gods divine plan, but where is it ever stated in the bible that God has a divine plan.

It's stated in a number of Scriptures.

WWW.BIBLEGATEWAY.COM...

is a good place to search with keywords.

BTW, Pastor Henry Wright's website is:

WWW.BEINHEALTH.ORG...

He even declares that the steps of a righteous man are ordered of God.

In terms of free will . . . I'm not a Calvinist and certainly not a hyper-Calvinist.

I strongly believe in free will--otherwise, there could be no love--no loving relationship with God or anyone. Robots can't love.

Love requires the option for non-love and for authentic genuine consequences for choosing non-love vs love.

The late Dr Walter Martin spoke of it this way . . .

Imagine a computer as big as the known universe. In this computer ALL the possible choices of all the organisms to have ever lived and/or living are all programmed, entered into the computer.

At the level of the individual, there is a STRONG MEASURE OF FREE WILL--not all things are pre-determined--not all things are totally and only an inidivudal organism's 100% purvue.

But God, the programmer also has choice. He can adjust the program any number of infinite ways to achieve His goals for each individual as well as for groups and the universe in general.

I think that's a fair analogy.

We are all free willed beings, therefore there cannot be a plan.

HOGWASH. A lot of things are not 100% absolutely of the form "A" or "B" exclusively.

There is a plan. And when we violate it, we pay a price individually and collectively.

There is a plan for individuals, families, Nations etc.

At some point, ultimately, God WILL HAVE HIS WAY 100% but between now and then, we have A HIGH DEGREE OF FREE WILL--not absolute 100% free will--but also not 0.00000% free will.

And, I don't think we ever know at the moment, what the relative percentages of our will vs God's will is operating in a given situation.

And if you say there is one, well then why did God plan for people to stop believing in him, and to have some brutally murdered. And some die peacefully.

I don't think Job got very far asking God why questions.

He tends to reply . . . WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH?

I think free-will is essential for love--a love relationship with God or anyone else. God COULD have made robots. He wanted fellowship with friends. But He had to test and purify their choosing mechanisms. That required real choice--authentic, true choice with true consequences.

Rebellion against God results in individual and collective suffering. That is a given. All the deceptions and lies from hell and from secular humanist universities will not change that.

God would rather that all come to repentance and experience eternal life. But he won't force it. If one chooses eternity with satan, so be it.

to be continued . . .

And though you think you are doing those other people good, it's really just pointless. No matter how many people pray or how many times you pray, the outcomes are always the same as if you never prayed at all.

NOT POINTLESS AT ALL.

Prayer focuses our attention Godward. And, often prayer causes us to examine ourselves--to the good.

Outcomes are NOT always the same as if we never prayed at all.

That's a delusion, lie, deception from hell. And satan has enough control these days over the media etc. that masses of people assume it's true.

Thankfully, I have EXPERIENCED OTHERWISE.

But God delights to answer prayer. He just has His standards that typically--there are exceptions at HIS discretion--typically His standards must be met, FIRST.

I do believe that folks in our era are increasingly going to be on thin ice. He will provide dramatic demonstrations of His supernatural power . . . but for a given individual, the opportunities to believe God . . . will NOT be infinite--nor--probably--not even as plentiful as in past eras.

Increasingly, GOD WILL DECREE--THIS IS THE DAY OF SALVATION--CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE.

And many folks will not have another opportunity--a true, viable opportunity--to choose God, His way, eternal life.

I don't know that anyone really understands hell. At least it is eternal separation from God--quite horrid enough. More horrid than non-believers have any conception of. God will encapsulate rebellion to prevent it from polluting His perfection; His perfect plan; His perfect universe.

And, increasingly, in our era . . . the number of opportunities to choose God will be decreasing for individuals chronically choosing rebellion against God.

And be very clear . . . doing things one's own way vs God's way IS REBELLION AGAINST GOD.

So maybe you know what i'm talking about and you have prayed for someone, and they have died.

I believe folks can die before their 'scheduled time' in some sense. I don't pretend to have it all figured out . . . But I think suicides are such cases in point. God did not desire such not arrange it. But He set up a situation of sufficient free will that such was the consequence of a series of destructive choices. It's the price He and we pay for a chance to have AUTHENTIC LOVE.

why did god plan for people to stop believing in him, and to have some brutally murdered. And some die peacefully.

It was not God's desire nor plan for folks to stop believing in Him. Nor to have folks brutally murdered. But there are consequences for choosing something less than God's perfection.

"SIN" originally meant missing the bull's eye of perfection as in archery.

Some of the consequences are collective--the results of all the sinful choices of all individuals over the eons of time on earth. Some of the consequences are personally triggered by our own individual personal choices.

God will not wave His magic wand--yet--and wipe out all those cause and effect dynamics with respect to sin and the wages of sin--which = death. How could rebellion against INFINITE LIFE AND PERFECTION be else but death?

If all of what is happening is part of a divine plan, then God is one messed up asshole.

Keep that sort of attitude up and you'll likely find out sooner than you ever imagined how God feels about such an attitude.

Maturity is partly learning WHO IS BOSS and how to relate to THE BOSS appropriately.

Hint--it's according to HIS specifications, not yours.

Can you really imagine a universe created in YOUR image?

God have mercy.

I don't think such things are overly given to "proof" in the normal sense of it.

Scripture says--Prove me . . and He means it--but with the proper attitude of truly seeking Him and His ways.

Josh McDowell's NEW EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT has a lot of proofs in it for those genuinely curious out of a good attitude.

Cheers.

If you pray and some invisible force intervenes, he is God.
But if you pray for something, and I intervene, and succeed in fulfilling your prayer, am I then the exact same God from your bible?

Not to say that God does not exist, or simply does not answer prayers.
But to blindly ''claim'' that what you have witnessed is the power of God, is foolish, though I guess that in a certain manner it can also be seen as faith or believe.

You cannot know whether you witnessed the power of God, you only witnessed a miracle. (Or perhaps something not as much of a miracle, but you simply didn't know how it would be possible.)

[edit on 8/8/07 by -0mega-]

Existence has always been.

There is no "god"

To contemplate ..nothing,then something appears from nowhere,and makes something else for some reason..*shrug*

The beauty of eternal existence,the opportunity for an infinite number of lifeforms to arise..why do we feel the need to justify our own presence?

the "fear" in god that you have, the thought of not living on, is not the thought that you wont live on, its the fear of separation from god. if there is no god, then you cant be separated from it.

think of it this way, when you die, you neither gain nor lose anything. that is a lot more reassuring to me than a guy judging me and me just hoping that hes a pretty "chillaxed" god and will let all the horrible (in her/his/its eyes) things i have done go. and considering religion pretty much outlaws pleasure, no thanks, i think ill have fun with the only life i get. the only reason, in my opinion, that anyone is religious, is that they hate life. you think life is horrible and you cant imagine that this is all there is. well then you need to start living your life the way you want to and not conform to others' standards. this is all you get, make the best of it.

Originally posted by -0mega-
You cannot know whether you witnessed the power of God, you only witnessed a miracle. (Or perhaps something not as much of a miracle, but you simply didn't know how it would be possible.)

[edit on 8/8/07 by -0mega-]

WRONG.

As Scripture says:

My sheep know my voice.

Certainly satan is skillful at putting forth a deceptive beautiful face of evil.

But a lot of the struggles and trials of Christians has to do with teaching them to TRUST God AND TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE between the voice of God; their own mental noise and the counterfeit deceptions of satan.

How easy is it for someone else to fool you as your spouse or significant other on the phone?

RELATIONSHIP is God's focus. In the CONTEXT of RELATIONSHIP, discerning God's influences and part in one's life is not as difficult as you seem to think.

But there's no way to convince of that . . . it rather has to be EXPERIENCED.

And there's no way to phoney your part of that experience and fool God into playing the game without your doing your authentic part. He doesn't play those games.

Also, there's a kind of phenomenon that one learns over time . . .

perhaps best put as "That has 'God's fingerprints' all over it."

He IS rather unique.

Counterfeits CAN'T well or often convincingly substitute as God very successfully. They don't have the abilities.

And, God doesn't allow some things.

But more importantly, God's character, nuances, ways etc. are NOT LIKE satan's. DOH!

And there really is only the two sources.

BTW, satan is NOT God's fitting and equal opponent. He's less than a gnat's fart's worth of opposition.

Originally posted by aylyan

To contemplate ..nothing,then something appears from nowhere,and makes something else for some reason..*shrug*

The beauty of eternal existence,the opportunity for an infinite number of lifeforms to arise..why do we feel the need to justify our own presence?

WRONG.

As the quantum computing expert the other evening on C2C was noting . . . it has been demonstrated that the universe has not EXISTED LONG ENOUGH for even a fraction of the evolution postulated events necessary to have occurred.

And, I guess you are unfamiliar with the big bang . . . . everything from nothing? Science's best guess at this point.

Try again.

Your assertions rang rather hollow, shallow and uninformed.

Originally posted by noobmonster

and considering religion pretty much outlaws pleasure, no thanks, i think ill have fun with the only life i get. the only reason, in my opinion, that anyone is religious, is that they hate life. you think life is horrible and you cant imagine that this is all there is. well then you need to start living your life the way you want to and not conform to others' standards. this is all you get, make the best of it.

WRONG.

That's one of the most hideous of hell's deceptions.

God has a corner on true pleasure. Folks out of RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD have only the faintest, shallowest hints of what pleasure feels like, is like.

It's a rather thoughtless, uninformed, inexperienced perspective to postulate that GOD ALMIGHTY would allow satan to have a corner on pleasure. WHAT A DECEPTION! What a dumb idea!

God certainly doesn't lack for creativity!
God certainly doesn't lack for ability and options!
God certainly doesn't lack for love!
God certainly doesn't lack spontaneity!
God certainly KNOWS pleasure dynamics, facets and factors from beginning to end. He designed the whole sheebang! Sheesh!

But . . . believe what you will. Trading X decades of infrequent, tortured, conflicted, sparse, inadequate pleasures for such a short span of life

you will cling to that and throw away infinite ages of infinte pleasures and joys????

And you call that a bargain????

What a hell fostered deception.

BO XIAN instead of pasting "WRONG god is this god is that" left and right, why don't you read up on the big bang? You'll discover it's not creatio ex nihilo.

How many times must this be repeated?

Originally posted by DarkSide
why don't you read up on the big bang? You'll discover it's not creatio ex nihilo.

How many times must this be repeated?

My impression is that the BIG BANG folks are not any more doctrinaire identical in their guesstimations

than different Christian denominations are.

And, the same sort of exhortation could easily be sent your way regarding assumptions and pontifications about God and Christianity that are wholesale off the wall, inaccurate, uninformed etc.

BTW, I have read more than one BIG BANG expert who made it SOUND LIKE it was everything out of nothing.

No. I don't carry such references around in my head. There's at least a mushed together 50 years of reading I draw such memories from.

I personally dont believe in god, but prayer and faith are powerful things. For example i heard this story of a christian held city during the crusades in the middle east. The middle easterns came with an army 3 or 4 times the size of the christians army. The christians were losing the battle until their genenral found a "Holy Lance" which gave the christian soldiers faith that god was on their side. They ended up winning.

Originally posted by tankthinker
I personally dont believe in god, but prayer and faith are powerful things. For example i heard this story of a christian held city during the crusades in the middle east. The middle easterns came with an army 3 or 4 times the size of the christians army. The christians were losing the battle until their genenral found a "Holy Lance" which gave the christian soldiers faith that god was on their side. They ended up winning.

Yep, as I stated before in another thread. Sun Tzu actually makes a point to say that it has more to do with the faith of the troops in their leader and their cause than anything else. After that is weather, the landscape, and then finally, the strength of the army.

Faith is a powerful thing whether you believe in a diety or not. You could have faith in destiny and get momentum off of that.

Think of the suicidal, they have lost faith in everything. God, country, family, desitny, everything. And becausde they have this lack of meaning, they off themselves.

So many people disregard the power of faith because they only believe in science. Well science is a great tool towards understanding, but if it blinds you to the forces within the human mind and their repercussions, what good is it?

[edit on 13-8-2007 by Quazga]

Hey, waddaya know!

Another one. Thanks for asking the question that has never been asked before. Did anyone come up with any conclusions yet? I'm curious to know.

Moocow, I am doing well. I'm sorry I missed a few grenades. How's this:

Greed doesn't kill people, Jesus kills people.

OR

Politicians don't kill people, Jesus kills people.

OR

Guns don't kill people, Jesus kills people.

OR

Drug traffickers don't kill people, Jesus kills people.

How's that? I can keep going.

It was Jesus, not Stalin, that killed 20 million Russians during the Cold War.

It was also Jesus that decided all girl babies in China had no value and forced sterilizations on women.

In his spare time, he created the chemical weapon program used by the Japanese against the Chinese during WWII, and passed it along to Saddam Hussein.

Castro and Che were closet Catholics and that's the real reason they were killing people in Cuba and South America.

Idi Amin was an evagelical Christian, so was Pol Pot...they were just pretending to be atheists to throw people off the scent.

Let's not forget that Jesus also created nuclear weaponry over a glass of wine.


Yes, these threads are always so productive. Do you feel better? I certainly do. I'll be posting this on the other threads as well since, well, there are so many of them.

So yeah, I'm on this vastly different thread about miracles not happening than the thread about amputees not getting their arm regenerated through prayer, and wondering why no one is posting about this vastly different subject matter.

Maybe I should have a prayer vigil and see if anyone shows up?

*rolls eyes and pats nearest Christian on the head condescendingly*

Ahh, yes. You dear little idiots. Haven't we explained this already in ten million threads? God doesn't exist and you should listen to us because we're highly successful people with BMWs in the driveway of our Swiss Chalet and PhDs behind our names. None of us eek out miserable day jobs and/or live with our parents still. We have it all together not like you dumb, violent rednecks who still believe in a God!

Why don't you go bomb an abortion clinic and fondle someone? I mean, that's what all you stupid Christians do. We atheists and pagans get to feel superior because our ideology *cough Marxism cough* was never responsible for killing 20 to 60 million people, and no pagans *cough Rome cough Sumeria cough Philistine cough Egypt cough Vikings cough ancient China cough Aztecs cough Maya* ever killed anyone and supplanted their gods and holidays with ours. We know this because we know that all important history started in eleven hundred of the common era. We know this because we're that much smarter than you dumb, violent hicks.

So please bow before our superior intellect, mature attitudes, and perfect grammar. Let us do your thinking for you because we are all intellectual giants with great jobs and respect from our community. Remember, people don't kill people, religion kills people.

Are we done yet? Seriously. Are we done? Have not these same arguments been exhausted on ten million of these threads?