Question for those opposed to masonry

There are alot of people on this board who are opposed to masonry, and this question is for them.

Can you produce any evidence of a consprinicy, illegal activity, collusion, ect. ?

Originally posted by bigred1000

There are alot of people on this board who are opposed to masonry, and this question is for them.

Can you produce any evidence of a consprinicy, illegal activity, collusion, ect. ?

If they could, we wouldn't be here.

What little "proof" I have seen posted here crumbles to nothing under close scrutiny.

I am not one to believe that the Masons are involved in one big conspiracy to control the world, but is it possible that from time to time *some* masons or *some* lodges could have co-opted the organization of the masonic lodge to commit criminal conspiracies? For example, it could be possible *some* lodges are ior were involved in selling drugs or could be fronts for street gangs.

These acts may not have necessarily been entirely bad. For example some say the Boston Tea Party, which was technically a criminal act, was planned by masons. Maybe there are stories of German Masons secretly hiding or smuggling Jews during the Holocaust. Or perhaps some masonic lodges were involved in smuggling liquor or moon shining during Prohibition.

hotpinkurinalmint actually when the colonial militia was formed to fight Britian was a criminal act. But if we hadn't we would still be under their control today. I don't know about the German masons secretly hiding Jews but German masons where definitely persecuted by the Nazis. The first thing Hitler did was to destroy the masonic lodges because he thought freemasonry and Judaism where connected.
If any lodges where or are involved in selling drugs or fronts for street gangs their charter would definitely be arrested and the members expelled.

I cant, cause im not in that much of the know..but this guy from canada is doing some very intriguing research im sure you or others will attempt to debunk.

thebravenewworldorder.blogspot.com

to me the masonic order is an orginisation created to hide a psychedelic secret of our origin, or possibly connection to other places in space and time. this organisation transformed over time by evil men who did good things.., and concentricly pulled in entire nations and rose to power secretly over all people. Power isnt just politics, its the machine, and theyre symbology is in almost every wrapper, sign and symbol of the marketplace. So if you want evidence I would say go to the store and look around. Sure theyre not all bad, MSG is good for our brain cells. Fake sugar doesnt give us diabetes or cancer. See my point, evil is subtle, and usually hides.

Originally posted by Snoresman
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If any lodges where or are involved in selling drugs or fronts for street gangs their charter would definitely be arrested and the members expelled.

Were there any instances of lodges being involved in criminal activity like drug selling or gang activity?

On a lighter note, were lodges involved in any bootlegging or moonshining during prohibition? Did any lodges become speakeasies?

Its funny when you get in lodge and see the guys bumbling around trying to do their part right. Each officer holds his position for a year, so just when he gets his part down he moves to another position. What goes on in lodge is more innocent and sometimes comical then anyone on the outside would likely believe.

Why does the world and the people need Secret Societies?
What function do they have?
If the Society is there to benefit the common people then why not publicise the fact and open the doors?

I don't know if masons were allowed to smoke in their Lodges, if they were do they have to conform to the smoking ban? I know that private clubs are not exempt to the new law, since mine has been forced to remove the freestanding ashtrays to take away temptation!

So, nothing terribly important, I'm just curious.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint


Were there any instances of lodges being involved in criminal activity like drug selling or gang activity?

The most notorious case was the infamous P2 Lodge in Italy. This Lodge went rogue. The Grand Orient cancelled its charter, and expelled its members.

On a lighter note, were lodges involved in any bootlegging or moonshining during prohibition? Did any lodges become speakeasies?

No, which brings up an interesting point in Masonic history. In most places in the world, Lodges have bars where the members can have a drink after the meeting should they so desire. However in the US, during Prohibition, alcohol was banned in the Lodges, and this ban still has not been lifted. Alcoholic beverages on Lodge property are still strictly forbidden.

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge
I don't know if masons were allowed to smoke in their Lodges, if they were do they have to conform to the smoking ban?

My Lodge had a designated smoking area next to the dining room until a couple of years ago. Several of the older members complained that the smoke bothered them, so we decided to move it outside.

There are no civil smoking bans in my area, but I do not think that such bans would affect fraternal lodges since they are private organizations, not public establishments.

but is it possible that from time to time *some* masons or *some* lodges could have co-opted the organization of the masonic lodge to commit criminal conspiracies?

Ahhh!

This is an excellent question. And I would say the answer is: "Yes, of course." It is possible. Freemasons are, after all, people. Right? And we all know that there are people who commit crimes, and there are people who conspire to together to achieve various ends. And, anyone who wants to achieve some particular goal, whether it be criminal or not...will probably have an easier time of it by gaining power, influence, and other people also interested in achieving the same goal.

But there's not much reason to single out Freemasonry in this.

Let's consider this from another angle: if you personally were a devious miscreant set upon some unsavory, and socially unacceptable agenda...how would you go about making it happen? Well, if it were me personally, I would quietly seek out similarly minded people, as well as weak-minded people who could possibly be manipulated into supporting my cause. Really, that's all you need to do to accomplish anything. Get enough people to agree with you, or at least be willing to ignore you. And, fortunately, since so many people prefer to think and act in groups, rather than as individuals, this is not terribly difficult. Put the average person in a group of people who all strongly believe one thing...regardless of what it is, and in time they will tend to come to agree as well. Provided, of course, that they don't receive contradictory input from others.

To put it simply, if you were to transplant a devout believer of one thing, into an environment exclusively populated by devout believers of another...and isolate him from his previous belief support structure, in time he will be very likely to absorb himself into the new belief system. Yes, some people are more resistant to this than others, but you don't need to convert everybody.

So...getting back to our thesis, anyone who wants to bring about any agenda simply needs to get enough people to agree with them. And, what better way to do this than to form an organization?

But really...don't MOST political/religious organizations basically follow this model? Whether or not they're "unsavory" or "criminal?"

The difference here, is mostly that perpetrators of "unpopular" agendas have to be covert about their actions lest they be snuffed out of existence by vigilantiism, be it in the form of formal governments, or merely neighborhood witch-hunters.

So, to return to freemasonry. Yes, it is certainly possible. In fact, I would venture to say that it's almost certain that some numbers of freemasons are people with some number of unpopular, unsavory and/or criminal agendas. Why? Simply by virtue of the number of freemasons there are, and the size of the organization. Your typical neighborhood church with more than a few hundred members probably has a few members who want to overthrow the government, for example.

How successful have these infiltrations into freemasonry been? I really have no idea. You might ask some freemasons, but I doubt they'd be terribly thrilled to talk about it with an outsider.

Originally posted by meurig
Why does the world and the people need Secret Societies?
What function do they have?
If the Society is there to benefit the common people then why not publicise the fact and open the doors?

If you are a good and honorable person, why no publish all your personal and financial data, SS number, bank account numbers etc? Because there are many people who would use that information to steal from you.
As long as there are good and bad people in the world, each will be keeping secrets from the other.

Hmm. I would simply ask any of those here who are Masons these questions.

If the oaths of the Scottish and York rites are not of any occultic value or effect, why then not divulge them?


If religion is of no relevance to Masonry, why then the references to GOD without mention of JESUS AS LORD in any of those oaths?

Why the acceptance of all gods of Islam, Hindu, Kabbalist, Shinto, Buddhism and the Babylonian gods of old and not acceptance of JESUS CHRIST as the son of GOD?


Why do these oaths threaten death upon divulgence....

Simple questions without spinning answers I await.

Originally posted by tyriffick22
Hmm. I would simply ask any of those here who are Masons these questions.

If the oaths of the Scottish and York rites are not of any occultic value or effect, why then not divulge them?

The tradition of keeping these things private dates back to the dark ages when thoughts of civil and religious liberty was grounds for being burned at the stake. While we maintain the tradition of not talking about them to outsiders, they are by no means secret. They have been printed publicly since the 1700s and with the advent of the internet, by no stretch of the imagination could we say these obligations are kept secret.

If religion is of no relevance to Masonry, why then the references to GOD without mention of JESUS AS LORD in any of those oaths?

It is intended that Masonry bring together men from different faiths to gather in peace. Proclaiming Buddha, Mohamed or Jesus as lord would not sit very well with those faiths not associated with that particular religious figure. Keep in mind, Masonry is not a religion. If you were at an office meeting would you be offended if they did not mention Jesus? The lodge is not a place to argue with a Buddhist who is lord, each person is allowed their own beliefs. You would not be required to subject your self to someone else's beliefs nor are they required to submit to yours. You are however required to be tolerant of others and accept that they believe differently and meet with them peacefully as equals.

Why the acceptance of all gods of Islam, Hindu, Kabbalist, Shinto, Buddhism and the Babylonian gods of old and not acceptance of JESUS CHRIST as the son of GOD?

Masonry is equally tolerant of all the above religions. We are not going to tell you that Buddha is Lord any more they we will tell a Buddhist that Jesus is Lord. Nor will we deny to you that Jesus is Lord. To each his own, see?

Why do these oaths threaten death upon divulgence....

As I mentioned above, the tradition of keeping these things private dates back to the dark ages when thoughts of civil and religious liberty was grounds for being burned at the stake. So keeping these secrets was a matter of life or death for the whole lodge. In modern times, these terrible consequences are no longer carried out, however some lodges still make mention of them though more and more do not.

My brother-in-law is a Free Mason and I can already see that his heart is in the wrong place. He's all about the image and the power over others. His faith is weak. It's a shame that your hearts are not in the right place. But go one with your organization and try to maintain that "power" that no one else knows about because you simply have none. In fact your religion contradicts the Bible, so how can something so contradicting of the Bible and leads souls in the opposite direction be so good? Hmmm? Or do I have to ask you three times? So you really think that your good deeds will automatically get you into that "great lodge" in the sky? IT WON'T. I've got news for you, there is no great lodge with different rooms and doors, you are being mis-directed.

L8TR, much L8TR.