Lets settle this "UK is a Police State" rubbish, right now..

So I have just spent a good half hour reading this thread and thought I would post some thoughts I have about it.

I dont pretend to be educated or knowledgeable enough to disprove so many 'facts' that people are testifying to here, however I do thing it is worth pointing out a few things.

Firstly London does not equal the UK.

Secondly The sheer arrogence of the Americans writing here is just incredible. There was a time (up to and during the Clinton era) where I really liked what America and its population stood for. Then Bush jnr came along and within a few years turned one of the most respected countries on the world stage into one of the most hated. Maybe I am totally misinformed here and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the impression I have is religion is mainly to blame for this, with the predominantly highly religious central belt of America being responsible for putting Bush into office in the first place and then keeping him there (with religion being no small reason for both of these).

However more to the root of all this. My belief at this time is it seems to me that America and the UK are both in as bad a state as each other. Growing up I was proud to say I was English and would have loved to have spent the rest of my life here. That is no longer true and I would give anything to leave the country and move to somewhere like New Zealand. There comes a point where just making new laws on top of old laws becomes to oppressive.

Several recent laws in this country come to mind. I hate the fact that a criminal in this country has more rights than a victim due to an ill concieved human rights act. I do not in any way agree with the no smoking in public enclosed places law. Personally I feel that if a government feels so strongly about the health implications of passive smoking they should just ban tobacco altogether and do the same for Alcohol and other such things at the same time. If a government is going to strip away my and other peoples human rights to make sure we all live in a nice cosy closet they might as well do it right.

It seems to me anyway that the true reason for everything wrong at the moment in the westernised world (and I do mean this literally, I dont think for one minute that these issues and problems are restricted to the UK and USA) is that the very thing that recent generations fought so hard for has started to fail. Democracy is no longer the beacon for peoples freedoms that it once was. There was a time the principle of Democracy was a group of people elected by the masses to act in the best interests of the people. (not the same as carrying out the wishes of the people) I am of the opinion, rightly or wrongly that the major players in the westernised world have gone beyond this. They now seem to act, to do the will of those with the most money. Governments are elected by people as to who they believe will do the least damage overall to a country, knowing however that it no longer really matters who they vote in as most political parties have dropped their left/right tendancies and all moved to the middle.

This is not in of itself a bad thing, having balanced policies can only be a good thing I would have thought. Where it seems to be going wrong is the belief that the way forward is to have the opinion that the way to improve a persons life is to restrict their freedoms and the best way to do this is to employ half the country to enforce this (intentional exageration).

I cannot see a way to actually change what is happening now throughout the world. There are to many factors preventing positive change.

Firstly Money now rules and power is in the hands of those who control the flow of money. Secondly the westernised world faces an unseen enemy which the lawmakers feel the only way to combat it is through restrictive measures upon its population. This of course is wrong, the war against religious extremeism is one that cant be won.

Hi Stu,

As a fellow UK citizen i would like to totally agree with you. I have never experienced anything that would lead me to believe the UK is or is becoming a police state.

The only thing that may be of concern is the National ID which would store data from every area of your life on a single database.. In the name of security? I don't think so. If we resist this then we should be ok but if information from this database fell into the wrong hands imagine the consequences.

We need to resist the ID cards to keep our identity personal.

Originally posted by Gorman91
The US sends crap loads of money toe Europe and Asia to basically pay off wars from happening, or to happen. Without US money, it all goes to hell.

So that's why you financed the IRA terrorist attacks that killed hundreds of innocent civilians over 3 decades is it?

Still, at least we don't have to pay that money back to you - unlike the debt we've only just finished paying for your generous assistance after WWII.....

www2.warwick.ac.uk...

In response to "Slowpoke": Like you, I have read quite a few posts here, and I don't claim to be all knowing of the way things are in England, or for some parts of the USA for that matter. We have the same issues here with various rights or liberties being stepped on or taken away. I am a smoker who pays extremely high taxes on my cigarettes just to be told I can't smoke them anywhere. I would have a lot more respect for the government if they just took them off the market. They dont give a #e about my health, they only want the cash.

Now, for the cameras or cctv, London is not alone on that one: Anyone driving down the service road for the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway needs to look up--there they are!! Now they are not privately owned! Thats the police trying to rack up speeding and parking tickets with out using the cops. too bad they don't seem to stop the stoned pedestrians who fall into traffic on a regular basis. Fed Up American means that Im fed up with my own government. Americans beware...the enemy lies within!

As for gun control laws, or our right to bear arms, people need to realize number 1: For every time they take away a piece of our rights, that leaves the door further and further open to take away something someone else believes in. Freedom of speech is extremely questionable in these times. That's probably the next thing on the chopping block. Number 2: if we did not have the right to bear arms, we'd still be under British Control. Hell, this list can go on and on.

As for arrogance, I have seen it from American and British posters here. Being American, I'm quite used to the bashing, its been popular for a while now and getting quite played out.

Yes, the USA has many, many problems. However, what you read in the papers or see on TV is not the whole story. We're accused of many evils, but unless you actually live here for a while, you can't know the whole truth any more than I can know the truth about your country. Unfortunately, people in both countries tend to believe every piece of pablum the media puts out there.

My last statement is to the person who posted directly after slowpoke. After 100's of years of attempting to destroy the Irish through war, forced famine, stealing land, similar what happened to native americans here (we can admit our wrongs, can you admit yours?) Longkesh, hunger strikes, ect ... be aware that people with glass houses should not throw rocks.......
After blacks get reparations here, maybe the Irish around the world should sue Britain for reparations.... I hate being so nasty to someone I don't know, but you brought up the topic.

Originally posted by Essan

So that's why you financed the IRA terrorist attacks that killed hundreds of innocent civilians over 3 decades is it?

Still, at least we don't have to pay that money back to you - unlike the debt we've only just finished paying for your generous assistance after WWII.....

www2.warwick.ac.uk...

I actually didn't know the US financed the IRA. It's probably true. My Gov is a bunch of monkies. I can't believe what their doing. They wont build a wall along Mexico because the "poor big cats can't get to water" oh, boo hoo for the cats. [Mod Edit] They can find a new watering whole.



[Mod Edit: Please see Please Do Not Evade the Automatic Censors. Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 2/8/07 by JAK]

I don't understand why everybody has a problem with guns.

Why shouldn't people be allowed to own a gun, if they want to?

If you would own a gun, would you go out and start shooting people? Probably not. And what makes you think you are any better than most of the other folks out there, who would hypothetically own a gun.
Same thing goes for those who own cars ... it's not like they go out and drive over people, like in Grand Theft Auto or something.

The guns criminals use are illegally bought ones, EVEN in the United States. You don't go and commit crimes with a gun you bought from your local gun shop -- it can be easily traced back to you.

When guns are banned, only criminals get to use them, and the honest Joe and Jane Averages' are left defenseless. Well ok, they do have cars ... and knives, and forks. But it gives the bad guys an upperhand.

So maybe people should concider focusing more on preventing illegal gun-trade instead.

And by the way, I'm not American, I'm Finnish. From Finland.

[edit on 2-8-2007 by phantastic]

Well now , i thought the main topic was the so called police state we here in the UK live in ...

I cant say that i have ever noticed the police state!! I pass the ol' Bill everyday on foot and they do not notice me or ask me for my papers, IF they did i would not be able to furnish them with any kind of papers as its not a legal requirement as yet to carry them at all times, and i carry only one form of ID and that is my driving license...

Camera's ??? Yes there are a few , I know but the pictures shown earlier in this thread are of the Inner London Congestion charge cameras which are No' plate recognition cams, they do not move, they are static , they are not surveilance camera's...Also i have never seen that many camera's set up on one rig!! i would sure like to know where those ones are!!

The Control room picture looks remarkably like the Amex control room in the American Express HQ, I know , i used to maintain that CCTV system!!

This is not a Police state it IS a NANNY state and to be honest and i fear im going to get the wrath of Stu and NEFOR here , im fed up with the nanny state, but i love my country and i will stay here . Same as the Majority of Americans , Germans , Finnish (from Finland) love their country. .We all think were the best country but all have Pros and cons....

Bout time we all started to recognise that each country is different with different ways and start to get along , Is it too much to ask???

So after all that has been said , I still bet my last fiver that we see a new thread appear about the UK being a orwellian state ... NO we Aint !!!

Regards


Git

Originally posted by completenuttergit
This is not a Police state it IS a NANNY state and to be honest and i fear im going to get the wrath of Stu and NEFOR here , im fed up with the nanny state, but i love my country and i will stay here .

No wrath from me

Nanny state I'll agree with, but thats down to soundbyte politics and knee jerk reactions bought about by a Labour Government that was kept in the political wilderness for so long its got its head planeted firmly up its own backside and has lost all forms of common sense.

And, like you, I DO love my country, which is why arrogant americans proclaiming it to be a police state get both barrels from me. If it ever goes that way I'll be out fighting it, because my kids deserve better and my elderly relatives fought - and some died - in WW2 to ensure it never goes that way.

I have just read most of the posts in this thread - I admit to not having read them all, but if you'll allow a comment or two based on that understanding then thank-you.

I live in the UK. I live in the US. I live in France. I live in Australia.

IMO:

Who gives a toss whether the agenda of control is more overtly apparent in the UK or the US? What's the point of a competition?

It's the fact that we're having to compare swathes of 'evidence' of the covert/overt control in these different countries that points to the real situation. Control is on the up (in the name of 'protection') across nearly all the major political players' countries in the West.

I read a long exchange between 'discomfit' and others around page 9ish. Reams of 'evidence' was posted there. The stories happened to be about the UK. I have read plenty of counterpart stories about the States, Australia and France. And talked to people who live there. There is a common theme of increased subtle control of the public in the name of 'protection'.

I am amazed how much trust some people have in their governments! (and The Queen! - what a joke! She's one of the most famous people on the planet, and yet she's also one of the people we know the least about. But still, people make out like they know her, and trust her? - weird.)

What is the basis for this trust? I don't get it. Could someone explain why I should have any trust and respect left for the UK government for example? What experiential evidence do I have that they are acting in the best interests of the public? It seems to me that we SERVE the people we ELECT! When clearly in a democracy it should be the other way around, no?


Just to remind, this is my opinion - nothing more and nothing less.

(By the way, a couple of months ago a school-teacher art enthusiast from Kent got told by a policeman that he couldn't take a photo of the outside architecture of King's Cross station under the Terrorism Act... Hmmmm.)

Nefor i would be fighting right along side u there fella !! no worries there mate!

Oh and while im here , our so called little cars!! well they dont gas guzzle, they dont throw out pollution by the ton and most of em maybe smaller in engine size than a 10litre V12 but they can do more than 10 gallons to the mile more nippy and prob more fun to drive than a Hummer, ok maybe not off road, but , i like to drive and feel the car , fight with it drive it! push it to its max ! not lumber along with nothing to do but steer!!

Regards

Git

Well I turned tables on the Police State CCTVs on Wednesday - when a policeman came into my shop and I got him on CCTV

Originally posted by johnsky
Don't feel so bad man, I'm a Canadian, we've come to expect Americans to say really stupid things...

It's a joke up here, whenever someone says something in ignorance, to ask if they are American.


Most of the schools down there don't teach much in the way of geography, nor do they educate their kids on how governments are run outside of their own borders.

Most Americans do not own a passport. What could they possibly know about the world?

It leads to things like, calling Canada a communist country... and when you ask why they think that way, their most common response is "Your flag is red" and "Your hospitals are free"

When you actually do educate them on how our government is run, they usually get that shocked look on their face, to learn that we have more control over our government than they do with theirs.

We've simply come to accept that Americans are going to say some really ignorant things. In fact, we've come to think of it as quite humorous... like a 3 stooges film.

Stu, I read your complete thread all 11 pages and since I have never been to the U.K. I will take your word that you know what you are talking about...lets call it good faith since I have a respect for you...we debated a few times and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

The reason I quoted johnsky above is...IMO you just let this idiot and yes I said idiot take your thread way off into let's just bash the Americans. You have a responsibility as the OP to call out these tirades and attempt to stop it or at least not silently condone it.

Yeah I'm an American..I have a passport, I have traveled to Mexico, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, France, Romania, and I currently live in New Zealand (3 years and now have residency status)and believe it or not I can point to all of those countries on a map(and any other you might inquire about Johnsky)...I hold two baccalaureates, computer science and math...I can spell, I understand the difference between constitutional representation, socialism, communism and lets don't forget capitalism...although thats a religion not a government...I guess what I am trying to say is, you in a mild mannered way opened up yet another slam the dumbass Americans...it reads as an open invitation...

I was under the impression the boards mantra was "Deny Ignorance"... I have to say in all respect you missed your chance to dispel that dark cloud of ignorance...just my opinion.

Carry on with your bashing Johnsky..we folks south of your border know what a great country you live in..honest we think of you as family...obviously though it's not reciprocal.


[edit on 3-8-2007 by deadbang]

[edit on 3-8-2007 by deadbang]

Originally posted by Essan
Well I turned tables on the Police State CCTVs on Wednesday - when a policeman came into my shop and I got him on CCTV

Did you catch him feeling up some kids or something. lol, thats all they are good for.

Re: Control, police state, UK.

Britain is a police state and has been so for at least the last 30 years. Most people don’t know it is because of the ‘Official Secrets Act’ that prevents any real information about what happens in the UK from ever being published there. The result of that is sheer ignorance about how successive British governments have all repressed their population in all manner of ways.



[Mod Edit: T&C's section 4. Lesdove please check your U2U's. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 6/8/07 by JAK]

All people who litter, violate traffic laws and "anti-social" types please report to the closest government office to give a DNA sample.

I repeat, the UK is not a police state.

Cheers !

If you are innocent then you have nothing to feel guilty about. Also dropping litter and you get away with it today, tomorrow, maybe, you may try mugging, rape or murder.
Familiarity breeds contempt so be ever so careful

Originally posted by meurig
Also dropping litter and you get away with it today, tomorrow, maybe, you may try mugging, rape or murder.

That's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It's like when you tell your children 'don't touch that'
They do and they feel brave, so when you tell them don't do something else , they feel less resistance to doing it.
If your children aren't a good example then think of your own childhood and what your parents told you not to do.

Stu,

After watching this thread for over 2 weeks now, I am sorry to have noticed that your attempt to smash this myth and view that johnny foreigner , who has never been to this fair Isle , has of us here .

They seem to not want to listen to the citizens that reside here , work here , LIVE here!!! So our experiences of living here count for absolute zilch, A camera on every corner ? I think not .. i can see loads of corners from here!! and guess what? NO CAMERAS !! Hmmm but i guess im lying again!!

I drove 111 miles on friday from Brighton to Weymouth and counted the traffic cameras and there were 12 !! 11 of which were on the M27 monitoring traffic flow . the single camera was an enforcement cam on the exit out of Worthing !!! Wow what a huge repressed police state this is. Oh and my average speed was 90 mph sometimes touching 120 , hmm yes i had to drive hard to loose all of those police chasing me from being spotted by all those cameras watching me breaking the speed limit !!!!!! NOT !!

Stu and Neformore, probably the biggest advocates for the way life is in this country on this forum have tried over and over again to get the message across to people ! YET no ONE can understand where they come from and what they are trying to tell you .. It seems that we should not stand up and try to correct anyone that critisises our way of life here. Were happy OK?

Unless you been here and lived here as only one of the posters here has, then i suggest you worry about your own domain and leave this non police state to worry for its self ...

Stu again good thread but as usual i think it falls on deaf ears and blind eyes ....

Until the next time
regards

Git

Originally posted by completenuttergit
They seem to not want to listen to the citizens that reside here , work here , LIVE here!!!

Right on the money. Its why - up until now - I stopped contributing to the thread. I'd be better off smacking my head up a wall.

For a forum thats supposed to be about denying ignorance, theres a whole load of it being displayed.