Museum Aircraft

Waynos amazing? No not really, a bit obssesive perhaps. Of course only a bloody pom would be that picky over abuse of the English language. As Churchill said, " This is the sort of English up with which I shall not put!"

No Jezza! (and waynos , Canada) that is the most irresponsible thing any ally of the US could say. If Canada the UK & Australia had gone their own way then who would the Americans have sold all those aircraft too? Who's aerospace industries would NOT have been hobbled?

Hang on... Australia, Canada and Britain are all on the JSF project, and none of us is entirely happy with the way the project is being run or what we might get. If we band together, maybe with Japan? We might be able to develop an acceptable alternative to the F-35 and.... "BAAANGG!!" I have just been shot for heresy, placed in Guantanamo, or declared a left wing crazy. Take your pick.

LEE.

If I may add a question of my own to the mix. Why is the plane called the TSR-2?

Sure Tim. TSR 2 is not actually the designation of the plane, like the US has F-15 etc, it is actually the name of the project that led to it. By that I mean that the meaning of 'TSR 2' is equivalent to the meaning of JSF or ATF. The acronym is short for " Tactical Strike and Reconnaissance, Mach 2" the plane itself was going to enter service under the name BAC Eagle GR.1. The selected RAF Name for the F-111 was the GD Merlin GR.1.

The UK mission designator is the mark number after the name, an example I have used before which is easy to follow for Americans is to imagine that the RAF bought the F-15;

the A2A model F-15A would have been the 'Eagle F.1' in UK terms, the trainer F-15B would then have been the 'Eagle T.2', do you follow how that works?

In this case then the A2A F-15C would have been the Eagle F.3, the trainer F-15D would then be the Eagle T.4 and then finally the A2G F-15E would have been the Eagle GR.5. If that reads like nonsense just ask and I'll explain (GR stands for 'Ground attack and Recon' see also Tornado F.3 and GR.4, Typhoon T.1 and F.2)

Thatcher thought about restarting the programme.

Yes neformore, this was considered during the Falklands war, briefly, but was disregarded thanks partly to the fact that when originally cancelled in 1965 the Govt ordered all production jigs, tooling and drawings destroyed completely as well as the prototypes to make certain the programme could never be restarted (which kind of backs up the conspiracy theories on this episode ("wanna buy some F-111's?" nudge nudge), but even without that it was impossible to justify the cost with the Tornado then beginning to enter service.

The fact that so much of the TSR 2 survives today is partly pure chance and partly down to some canny souls who actively hid one of the prototypes from the scrap man.

edit when I used the phrase 'easy for Americans to follow' I mean only in that the F-15 family is an aircraft sequence that you will already be familar with. nothing more, honest guv

Lee great post, hilarious

[edit on 11-7-2007 by waynos]

Thanks Waynos,

Your explanation makes sense to me. Over in the UK you just reverse the order of the name and designation, and replace the dash with a "." So while a plane might be say an F-4 Phantom here in the US. the British equivalent might be say the Phantom F.1 over there in the UK. (random choice of numbers, just to see if I got the basic idea)

Great explanation!

Tim

Originally posted by thebozeian
Waynos amazing? No not really, a bit obssesive perhaps. Of course only a bloody pom would be that picky over abuse of the English language. As Churchill said, " This is the sort of English up with which I shall not put!"

No Jezza! (and waynos , Canada) that is the most irresponsible thing any ally of the US could say. If Canada the UK & Australia had gone their own way then who would the Americans have sold all those aircraft too? Who's aerospace industries would NOT have been hobbled?

Hang on... Australia, Canada and Britain are all on the JSF project, and none of us is entirely happy with the way the project is being run or what we might get. If we band together, maybe with Japan? We might be able to develop an acceptable alternative to the F-35 and.... "BAAANGG!!" I have just been shot for heresy, placed in Guantanamo, or declared a left wing crazy. Take your pick.

LEE.

Perfect lee just perfect. I don't mind the F-35 but when you think of the possiblity of the Aus Can and UK in on a programme together i get chills. Removing the US from the equation would be a huge benfit in some ways and not in others but with time and the smarts they can be over come. correct? Anyways a great though that i wish would of happened and hope could happen.

www.f4phantoms.co.uk...


first link i could find:

the RN Phantom F-4K was called the Phantom FG1 (and later the next ones were the FGR2) and the last ones which were ex-USN F-4J were simply called Phantom F3.

the naming is for the role - FG1 - Fighter Ground attack ; and FG - Fighter,Ground attack , recon

Yes thats basically right Tim and Harlequin is also virtually there too (99% of the way).

Royal Navy Phantoms were F-4K's which entered service as Phantom FG.1's and RAF ones were F-4M's which thus became FGR.2's, there is some uncertainty as to whether the F.3 designation was ever officially applied to the F-4J's that equipped 74 Sqn in the 1980's as some official sources merely refer to them as F-4J(UK)'s but I don't let that bother me

All the RN Phantoms were eventually passed on to the RAF (some as early as 1969!!) but they always remained FG.1's

I think the only RAF plane as yet not officially designated is the C-17A which, under the normal system, ought to become the Globemaster C.1


edit for afterthought;

The highest sequential mark number ever applied to a UK aircraft was the Spitfire F.24, with the other, non sequential numbers applied (ie Seafire F.45-47 etc, this means that there were 28 marks of Spitfire overall (earlier Seafire models were number within the main sequence) which is more than there are letters in the alphabet, so, theoretically, where would the US system go after "F-15Z" (ie Eagle F.26)?

[edit on 11-7-2007 by waynos]

Originally posted by waynos
The highest sequential mark number ever applied to a UK aircraft was the Spitfire F.24, with the other, non sequential numbers applied (ie Seafire F.45-47 etc, this means that there were 28 marks of Spitfire overall (earlier Seafire models were number within the main sequence) which is more than there are letters in the alphabet, so, theoretically, where would the US system go after "F-15Z" (ie Eagle F.26)?

[edit on 11-7-2007 by waynos]

You're very close on how the US system works. There is one flaw in your thinking though: An F-15Z would be equivelant to a British Eagle F.24. The reason for this strange difference is that in the US system, I and O are Never used as a suffix in designations. The reason for this is that the DoD decided that the letters I and O look too much like the numbers 1 and 0.

I - 1
O - 0

See the similarty?

Because of that, they skip the letters I and O as suffixes. For example:

If you have the AH-1H Cobra the next model is the AH-1J

Strange, I know, but that how the Pentagon does things!

Tim

Well, I emailed the NMUSAF about their YF-23 and just got an email back. They say it will be a complete aircraft when it's finished restoration and that the engines will be installed. They also said it wouldn't take much to get it to fly. Here's the email:

SIR - The YF-23 is complete and will have engines installed when it is assembled for display and a new windscreen will be fabricated as old is crazed from sitting out in the heat before it came here . Would not take much to make fly! As for the other it was to go back to the factory and they was going to paint it then it was to be towed back across airport to the Western Museum of Flight that sits on a corner of the airport . Don’t know if that has been done yet .As for ours when it will be done the director tells us what is to be done next and we have a 40 year plus backlog .

ROGER P. DEERE
RESTORATION DIV. CHIEF
NMUSAF/MUR
1100 SPAATZ ST.
WPAFB,OHIO 45433-7102
DSN 785-6905 (x220)
937-255-6905 (x220)
FAX 937-656-4010