Should Convicts be allowed Minimum wages while serving time in prison?

I'd just like to say something before I go on.

Prison is about rehabilitation, not punishment, since being in prison is punishment enough.



Now, as for where the money is going to come from, well you know there are companies
that can and actually do in some places have jobs open to inmates in prison,
so the money would'nt come from taxpayers as so many would like to believe,
rather it would come from the company employing them.



Honestly though, I'm disgusted that anybody would think that just because someones made
a mistake in the past that they are all the sudden subhuman and not equal.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Prison is about rehabilitation, not punishment, since being in prison is punishment enough.

No, prison is about punishment. Putting a person in prison is to restrict his freedom as punishment for breaking the laws of a free society. That's why his sentence is dependent on his crime.

Secondly, it keeps dangerous people from harming other people.

Honestly though, I'm disgusted that anybody would think that just because someones made a mistake in the past that they are all the sudden subhuman and not equal.

First, the vast majority of people who end up in prison didn't usually just "make a mistake". They knew they were stealing a TV or raping a woman. They knew it was wrong and they knew it was against the law. It's not like, "Oops, sorry I made a mistake and I see that now."

Secondly, no one is saying that they're subhuman or not equal. I'm saying that they deserve to have their freedoms restricted. Severely, depending on the crime. And working for pay and participating in a society where one is free to make money and spend it on luxuries is a freedom we enjoy as free citizens.

If the punishment of prison were more distasteful, people would do more to stay away from it. If they have the idea that "I can do another year or two if I get caught" then they're more likely to take the chance of repeating an offense and become a "career criminal".

According to the criminologists, 6% of the criminals in America commit 70% of the crimes.
Source

On the other hand, if they think, "Man, that was hell. I don't ever want to be in there again," they very likely will decide not to repeat an offense.

And if what goes on behind prison doors were made known to the public, I believe it would stop a lot of first offenders as well.

I don't claim to know the prison system, but I know what's happening isn't working and we need to do something differently.

Some of you are missing a few points: Inmates can sit on their asses and tell the guards and everyone else to go to hell. They do NOT have to work one lick. They cannot be physically punished legally for refusal to work.

So if you want an inmates labor, you must pay, simple. Slavery ended a while ago, if you had not heard. The Prison Industries that the Feds run is a huge supplier of certain products. They are offered at full price on the market but the labor costs are almost nothing due to their using inmate labor. Most inmates get bored sitting around all day and will actually work pretty hard and well if offered decent incentives like EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING.

Remember the big picture: The USA imprisons more Americans per capita than any other nation on earth. Most of these inmates, are in on non-violent drug related crimes. Minimum mandatory sentences passed during hysterical drug war propagandizing in the 70's and 80's placed vastly higher numbers of citizens behind bars, and for long terms. This provides the ever incresing numbers of laborers that the executives need to sustain this as a GROWTH INDUSTRY for the future.

Most of the inmates (proportionally)are black or hispanic and do not forget that native Americans also have a vastly higher per capita incarceration rate than the general population. So mostly minority inmates, in for long terms, provide the fuel for the Federal juggernaut to barrel along unimpeded by unions, labor standards, safety standards , adequate health care or having to pay a LIVING WAGE. No need to ship a company off to Mexico any more to avoid paying Americans a decent wage, just convert the population, or a goodly part of it, into a criminal class that perpetually, due to poverty, lack of jobs and resources and ingrained social stigmas,provides all of the warm bodies ever needed for them to make fortunes while telling the public how generous they are to give these terrible old criminals a chance to make 30 bucks a month.

Pay an inmate the minimum wage and they MIGHT have a chance to pay real restitution to victims and not a token; they also might save enough for a place to live when out, or to pay that child support they owe in a meaningful way, etc. They cannot give what they do not get, simple.

So until the public realizes the truth of the matter, the situation will never change. Most convicts are not violent. Most convicts do not live in a Club Fed prison ; just read the prison rape stats and tell me what a great deal they have. Most prisons are overcrowded, dangerous and miserable places to live. And for some guy that got caught with some weed and is now doing 5 years , he might have a better attitude when he gets out if he is treated as a victim of repressive and stupid laws rather than a menace.

Of course, there are many really bad people in prison. But they tend to get long sentences and do not enter back onto the streets as often as do the run of the mill, minor felon who made a dumb choice or two and got caught. Turning anyone onto the streets without a way to get shelter and food is begging them to return to crime; which is of course the whole goal; a recidivist population already trained in the prison industry and accustomed to deprivations is EXACTLY the kind of person they want.

And you can be sure that as long as the wages and benefits are virtually non-existent and the workforce is available, literally captive, in numbers that never decrease, we will never see a change in the stupid and repressive laws that ensnare most 'offenders'. Sixty (60%) percent of all inmates are in for non-violent drug offenses. Remove them by changing bad laws and the prison industrial bosses would go apoplectic trying to fill the positions in their dollar a day sweatshops; they might even have to pay minimum wage! No, as long as the politicians are addicted to ' The Drug War ' and looking tough for voters who are uninformed, we will never see change.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Pay an inmate the minimum wage and they MIGHT have a chance to pay real restitution to victims and not a token; they also might save enough for a place to live when out, or to pay that child support they owe in a meaningful way, etc. They cannot give what they do not get, simple

Very inciteful post eyewitness!

I would be very interested to see the viewpoints of a few ex-cons in here as well.

In Oklahoma, a state (not federal) prisoner costs over $19,000.00 per year to feed, house, guard, treat medically, etc. We have a furniture factory-one of the highest paying jobs in the joint-that pays .60 cents/hour. Some of the furniture is fairly nice but if the public wants to buy any pieces, it costs more than Mathis Brothers.

They are paid to work, same as you or me. If they slack off, lose levels (get demoted) they lose their pay-same as you or me. They had their chance on the outside to work for minimum wage and they chose to spend their hard earned nickles on drugs, and running out of nickles, they chose to steal car stereos or rob little old people at the ATM's. Now we have to start all over and teach them the proper way to behave and you don't do it by giving them the whole wage at once.

Many are in for the rest of their natural lives so all they need is canteen money for Little Debbies and soda pops. There is no smoking in any prisons throughout all of the state of Oklahoma so they don't buy cigarettes (or lighters to burn the place down).

I already work for (a lot) less than I could get in the private sector and the thought of giving the prisoners more of my money to keep them busy and out of tooooo much trouble irks me. For some reason, as a state employee, my state taxes are higher than they've ever been in the private sector so I'm basically paying for the priviledge of having a job in which I financially support people who have robbed, raped, sold drugs to my gradeschool children, etc. If they get a raise and I don't, I'm going back to the private sector and they can fend for themselves.

BTW, the line quoted earlier from the movie "let's go to prison" is funny but totally lacking in logic. It is not cheaper to let them keep our car stereos. If there's no punishment for stealing from others then everyone will be doing it and there will be no incentive to make car stereos knowing you're not going to get paid.

Originally posted by whitewave
I already work for (a lot) less than I could get in the private sector and the thought of giving the prisoners more of my money to keep them busy and out of tooooo much trouble irks me. For some reason, as a state employee, my state taxes are higher than they've ever been in the private sector so I'm basically paying for the priviledge of having a job in which I financially support people who have robbed, raped, sold drugs to my gradeschool children, etc. If they get a raise and I don't, I'm going back to the private sector and they can fend for themselves.

I want to get this straight right here and now.

I'm not avocating on giving these individuals a raise on the taxpayers' expense. Far from it.

My idea of paying a criminal minimum wages was to discern from 'pilfering monies from the general populous (taxpayers et al) - to accentuating the possiblities of 'outside penal juristictions including 'general manufactorers/factories who might be willing to 'take on' such a proposition.

I had already proposed a few viable solutions that included 'outside' financial productivity in this thread.

Folks?

The idea is to take the strain off tax-paying monies on all fronts.

[edit on 29-6-2007 by TheDuckster]

Not meaning to highjack but I have a novel idea. From what I recall, the cost of housing a prisoner in the US is appx $60,000 USD per year. Why not farm out the housing of prisoners to China. We could make them an offer to pay them $25,000 per year per prisoner & all we would ask is that they return them alive at the end of their sentence. Life sentences would not have this restriction. I bet crime would plummet soon thereafter & we would save a lot of taxpayer dollars to boot. Thoughts?

Originally posted by mizzu
Not meaning to highjack but I have a novel idea. From what I recall, the cost of housing a prisoner in the US is appx $60,000 USD per year. Why not farm out the housing of prisoners to China. We could make them an offer to pay them $25,000 per year per prisoner & all we would ask is that they return them alive at the end of their sentence. Life sentences would not have this restriction. I bet crime would plummet soon thereafter & we would save a lot of taxpayer dollars to boot. Thoughts?

I thought it was more than $25,000.

Housing costs still rising — at state prisons
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — The average annual cost of housing an inmate in the California prison system has more than doubled over the past decade to $43,287 a year, according to figures by the Legislative Analyst's Office.

Full Story

Look at the financial figures! Too freakin much.

Like Benevolent Heretic said, to which I do some-what agree - paraphrasing: The penal system (prisons) is not a reformational but a place to where one gets one's just desserts'.

Those that end up in prison most likely deserve to be there.

However, 'reformation' is a part of the human character.

I would suggest a 'minimum wage' payable from 'outside influences' to which I had previously stated.

These conditions would only apply to IMO, those who have proven within 'reasonable doubt', that their (heavilly monitored and 'proper' actions) would benefit from this course of action. Those, who the penal regulations committee, would deem 'appropriate to re-integrate into society as having NO CONSEQUENCES prevailing unto society.








[edit on 29-6-2007 by TheDuckster]

[edit on 29-6-2007 by TheDuckster]

I take on the points from others who have posted. However, what is wrong with teaching miscreants about the value of labour and paying them a pittance for it. Isn't free labour slavery?

Originally posted by Heronumber0
I take on the points from others who have posted. However, what is wrong with teaching miscreants about the value of labour and paying them a pittance for it.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with extending proper and legal knowledge towards others who are willing to extole upon themselves what is 'right & wrong', and use this knowledge appropriately.

Isn't free labour slavery?

What do you mean by 'free labor'?

Hasn't anyone taken the time to view the pages of this thread to see possible viable solutions to pushing forward the notion of my topic?

[edit on 29-6-2007 by TheDuckster]

Until the people get over the notion that inmates deserve even more punishment than they already have heaped upon their shoulders, the system cannot change.

When sixty (60%) percent of the prison population is in for non violent drug offenses, mostly for posession and small sales (and it is a total fallcy that those in for drugs were " selling drugs to my schoolkids " or any other nonsense) most get stopped by some Task Force and give consent, like fools, to search and end up screwed. You could count the number of adults arrested foir selling drugs to schoolkids on one hand. Kids sell to each other , and why? BECAUSE OF PROHIBITION, thats why.

No one mentioned nchanging bad laws..that would actually help. griping about what your tax money pays for is silly: If you had a sensible and far reaching plan to improve things, like the legalization of ALL drugs and the distribution controoled by the governemnt or private sector, like pharmacies do for the ' legal ' drug industry now, we could # down half of all existing prisons, save mulitple billions of dollars in taxes that could go to schools and teachers instead of DEA thugs and defense attorneys,etc, etc.

But as long as some prison guard has a secure job and the prison business makes millions for the big shots, the politicians will keep the same old rotten system going. Prisons are buging at the seams, inmates are being deprived of Constitutional rights routinely, and if you do not care, then you are no patriot or compassionate human being. You also do not like efficiency or trhe bottom line either.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Until the people get over the notion that inmates deserve even more punishment than they already have heaped upon their shoulders, the system cannot change.

When sixty (60%) percent of the prison population is in for non violent drug offenses, mostly for posession and small sales (and it is a total fallcy that those in for drugs were " selling drugs to my schoolkids " or any other nonsense) most get stopped by some Task Force and give consent, like fools, to search and end up screwed. You could count the number of adults arrested foir selling drugs to schoolkids on one hand. Kids sell to each other , and why? BECAUSE OF PROHIBITION, thats why.

No one mentioned nchanging bad laws..that would actually help. griping about what your tax money pays for is silly: If you had a sensible and far reaching plan to improve things, like the legalization of ALL drugs and the distribution controoled by the governemnt or private sector, like pharmacies do for the ' legal ' drug industry now, we could # down half of all existing prisons, save mulitple billions of dollars in taxes that could go to schools and teachers instead of DEA thugs and defense attorneys,etc, etc.

But as long as some prison guard has a secure job and the prison business makes millions for the big shots, the politicians will keep the same old rotten system going. Prisons are buging at the seams, inmates are being deprived of Constitutional rights routinely, and if you do not care, then you are no patriot or compassionate human being. You also do not like efficiency or trhe bottom line either.

I agree!

We can't dismiss the facts that you posted. There are too many 'goings-on' within the penal system that most deffinatley need to be acknowledged and re-furbished.

I would like to see a new thread started; possibly suckled from this one, and with the intention of imforming the public of the 'real goings on' that actually occur within our penal establishments.

Like I had mentioned before:

It would be an ideal topic for ATS members to discuss this further 'should' an ex-con contribute his/her thoughts towards these ideas.

[edit on 29-6-2007 by TheDuckster]

I AM an ex-con. I did five years in the Federal Penitentiary system back in the late 70's and early 80's. I have spent months in miserable county jails being transferred and waiting for trials, I have been assaulted by crooked guards that wanted to be told where supposed hidden money on the outside was stashed so they could steal it..when I denied it even existed, they ( three of them ) pulled me into an elevator and beat me up pretty good, then claimed I had jumped all three of them, while handcuffed!! Riiiiight.. My attorney got that thrown out in exchange for me dropping the pursuit of charges against the guards. Real justice, huh?

And I was one of the lucky ones. I have seen inmates raped, beated almost to death, abused by guards..the whole magilla. I am 6'1 and weigh 220 and am not fat..so I was always able to handle myself OK; the weak, young and timid become victims almost immediately. Some are coerced into homosexual acts in order to survive, others become drugs runners for the gang bangers and still others become enforcers for said big shots.

I was convicted of possession of marijuana; I was sitting in a truck in Coral Gables one day with nine tons of weed in it. I was simply a driver told to pick up vehicle X at a certain time and drive it to point B at a certain time.I never asked what was in the back, and was never told. But it would be a lie if I said I thought it was bakery goods!! But somewhere along the line a filthy snitch rose up from the slime of the earth and ratted the operation out. I refused to say a word; I follow the Golden Rule of defense attorneys: Give your name and address and SHUT THE HELL UP.

My partners bailed me out, provided me with a good attorney, and took care of me quite nicely while I did my 60 months. I had all of the weed I could smoke, all of the commissary items I needed, got champagne smuggled in by a friendly guard at New Years ( we had a laugh and left the empty bottle propped up on the Wardens desk !!!) and pretty much just suffered the loss of family, of freedom, of women, of fun, of walking in the park..all of the things that free people take for granted.

Whe I was released, I was picked up in a limo, taken to a hotel on Miami Beach and greeted by the big boss, who had never been identified or touched, who handed me 20 K in a brown bag, kissed me on both cheeks, and told me that all I had to do in the future, ever, was pick up a phone and call him if I wanted anything. Over the years, I moved away and changed my life and got married, had kids, worked a job for 15 years, retired and am now just a Dad finishing raising kids and living a normal, conservative lifestyle. My kids know the truth about my past and recognize the insanity of drug laws.

Sure, I broke the law. I did my time. I suffered like all inmates do when their parents and families and friends are all hurt and shocked and disappointed...when they cannot see you except on visitors days and know that years and years will pass before you are free. Try getting a calendar and day by day cross off each day. Do this for 60 months, while confined to a small area with virtually no rights and no privacy. I have been strip searched so many times that I have lost count.bullied by sick, sadistic guards who thrive on power trips; some of the sickest pups I ever saw became cops or prison guards; they have the desire to punish and hurt people built in and love to act it out.

But on subject, I worked for about a year in a Prison Industry, which was data entry. Forerunners of modern computers were used to take peoples IRS forms and enter them onto the system from paper. Thats rightt, YOUR income tax returns were in my hands !! Feel more secure now? We were paid, as I recall, about 45-60 bucks a month for full 40 hour weeks. I really did not have to work in there as I had friends on the outside, but I was bored to tears and wanted to learn about computers so I tried it. Beats sitting around all day.

She sheer face that so many inmates are there for drug charges shows how ludicrous those laws are.

Making is illegal is stupid, but anything more than a fine is just a waste of money and resources.

Also, prisons are NOT for either punishment or rehabilitation. The people there do not give a tinkers damn whether or not someone comes back or if they go straight. Recidivism is a guarantee of job security for them and the more inmates, the better.

Most inmates come in knowing one type of crime and end up with a Masters degree in advanced criminology, practical applications !! Inmates do not sit around bemoaning their fate; they plot and plan and establish new connections for the outside. A petty coke dealer learns how to steal better from old pro's... a gun law violater gets lesson on making silencers and full auto's...some kid from D.C. that stole from a mailbox ( Federal offense! ) learns that carjacking or auto theft is much more profitable..it goes on and on. Prisons are crime schools, with graduates going on to bigger and better crimes when released. Not all of course, some people get smart and either quit the game or get very slick and find ways to avoid future capture.

The guys that had no resources in prison, the really poor guys who could not adapt to an industrrial job inside, literally had to scam inside to survive and maintain their ' dignity '. You knew that these guys would be right back when they got out; they had NO chance on the outside; sent out broke and hopeless, they call the guy that they were in with and get together..and voila! Another crime and another inmate back inside.

The ONLY way to stop this madness is to change bad laws, give inmates real incentives to learn a trade; the job situation is so bad in the areas where the poorest come from that even if they DID learn a trade inside, there are no real chances that they will get hired when released. The stighma of a record will put their application at the bottom of the stack. Hopelessness causes most crime, poverty causes most crime, shutting down our factories under NAFTA causes crime, outsourcing of jobs causes crime. Until the socioeconomic roots of despair are addressed, this will go on forever.

Take away welfare and social supports, reduce healthcare, make affordable housing extinct, strictly enforce draconian and stupid laws, isolate minorities in run down areas and lock up a large percent of the young male population...go ahead. Where has it gotten you? Prisons are at 200% capacity, taxes pour into the ever expanding system, prison construction is at an all time high. Crime and punishment is the biggest growth industry in America!!! You cannot lose money investing in private prison companies; as long as 60% of all inmates are non-violent and victims of insane drug laws the system will be rotten to the core.

Sure, give inmates a living wage, make them bank a large part of it for release, make them pay restitution if there are victims ( drug offenses have no victims except the arrested party), and give them some self respect when they hit the streets, that makes sense. Any other way is a recipe for disaster and we are seeing the disaster unfold in front of us right now. It always seems to take a riot or radical action to get problems in prisons addressed. The public is not informed as to the truth, and so the prisons boil until they erupt. Do you want this same scene on the streets? If not give the inmates a way to escape the inevitable; give them a way to earn enough to get started again in a legitimate way when released.

Any other course is madness and counter productive. The inmate of today is your new neighbor, or your new nightmare, when he gets out. How you treat him now will determine to a large degree how he will be then. Take your choice.

Not true that those of us who work in a prison "don't give a tinkers damn" if the inmates go straight or come back. I care a great deal. I work hard to set a good example of socially acceptable behavior. The inmates respect it too. They don't cuss around me or say inappropriate things (that would make a female working in a male prison uncomfortable). If I see one of the officers treating an inmate badly, I always speak up for them and write up the officer if need be. If the officers are the ones saying inappropriate things or cussing, the inmates are the ones who risk time in lockdown to scold them on my behalf.

There are a lot of inmate games designed to bring an employee down, to make them break the law or commit some violation of ethics. I think it's their way of justifying their own lawlessness; ie: "See, I'm not so bad. Anyone can get in a bad situation. I don't really deserve to be here." In the short time I've been working in a prison we've had 6 employees lose their jobs for inappropriate relationships with the inmates, smuggling stuff in for them, etc. It's all a game to the inmates.

As for legalizing drugs...Some of the most messed up (emotionally, mentally, physically) inmates in there are the ones in for drugs. We've got one guy who's 19, had a track scholarship, got into meth and will never be the same. He was carried in like a piece of luggage because he was so out of his mind, spitting on everyone, fighting. He'll be on psychotropic meds for the rest of his life, his teeth are rotten, his liver is failing, he looks at least 30 and his mind is that of a 10 year old. Stupid drug laws.

When my brother died, his widow was left with 2 small children to raise on her own. She began visiting a guy in prison-a guy in our neighborhood that had robbed a drug store (to get the drugs he couldn't afford) at 15 years old and had been in for 15 years. This guy had a motive to get out-my sister-in-law, so he straightened up, got paroled, married my brothers' widow and helped raise those 2 kids. Even had one of their own. He turned out to be a decent guy (after 15 years) and I have the utmost respect for him. He's the exception to the rule.

There are monsters in prison and they need to be there. Paying them for the priviledge of staying off the street seems like an odd concept to me. They posed a real threat to society on the streets, they're posing a threat to the penal society in which they're incarcerated and there's no reason to think that they'll turn into little darlin's if and when they ever get out.

To Prison Guard:

Everything you just said supports my position, whether or not you realize it. If a person knows that meth is bad, and does it anyway, what good does it do to throw him in jail when doctors and teatment is FAR more effective in helping the victim ( the inmate ) to recover. Addiction is a HEALTH issue, best dealt with by doctors, not prison guards.

You of course do not mention the thousands locked up for weed; there are no horror stories to highlight, no rotting teeth, no careers dashed, no victims. The rate of hard drug addiction has remained steady for almost one hundred years; drugs come and go , with the worst usually being dropped within the system as harms become known. It does not take masked banditos( DEA agents ) to deal with health issues. Why not lock alcoholics up to ' help them ' get off the booze? Oh, right..the liquor industry gives vast millions to the politicians to keep sensible laws off the books and intelligent change a long way off.

As long as this world is a place of danger, intrigue, poverty, rascism, hatred, political chicanery and corrupt politics, certain human beings will react in ways that lead them to substance abuse. these people are better off in treatment ( It is a total fallacy that most ' drug ' users are hooked, etc. 1 -2 % of the population has these predispositions and always have.

Treat this one percent with compassionate medical help, keep the cops and jails out of it, and those who can use any substance that does not negatively impact those around him should be left totally alone. Why should the government have any say what an adult does in the privacy of their home, as long as no harm is done and no violence apparent?

The drug war is a scam to enrich the elite while making trillions for the associated agencies that support this insane system. Prison guards are the least able to give an educated opinion as they have a financial interest in maintaining the status quo for job security. Cops and guards HATE the idea of abolishing Prohibition ( again ) as it means that a lot less guards and cops will be needed to prop up the corrupt and worthless system.

How can I say it is worthless? For the last thirty five years we have tolerated against all sensible data and studies a course of action that has cost us trillions of our hard earned tax dollars, has ruined millions of lives by convictions and jailings ,and yet the price and purity of street hard drugs has told us a story: Lower prices mean that supply is adequate; purity means that the sellers and smugglers can afford to sell high grade product, not diluted, and still make their massive profits.

The drug war has failed totally and miserably but since we have no real politicians of merit, common sense and rational logic are thrown out the window to support the views of the corporate bosses who want no changes in the failed system, as they make vast profits off of the way it is now. It has become so big moneywise that sensible change is a laughing matter to the drug warriors, who destroy the Constitution, violate rights routinely and subvert the judicial process by felony perjury.

Cops, 99% acording to Norm Stamper, former Chief of the Seattle police. 99% of all cops have committed felony perjury to make a case stick, especially drug cases. Unless there is video evidence proving the cops a liar, their word will triumph in court when they lie. The judges and attorneys and defendants all know that they cops lie to convict; but the system is so rotten that often the innocent end up pleading to a crime they did not committ in order to salvage what they can of their lives do to a system that encourages police perjury.

Special interests control the system, victims of police misconduct and abuse often go unheard, and unless you can afford high dollar attorneys, justice is a bad joke in this nation. I will say it again: Prison guards and cops always fight change; they are doing Ok !!

They should not be payed anything, they commit the crime, and they get payed money through us, our taxes!

NO! i dont think so...only because hard working tax payers pay for their well being while they are in there...like for their food, and all the equiptment...just everything...

reply to post by iori_komei