Video: Muslims Against Jihad

Souljah,

While I don’t find it surprising that you tried to use the old straw man argument that jihad doesn’t mean armed struggle to discount and ignore this documentary, I do find it disappointing.

The truth is, you obviously know, since it was even included in the definition of jihad that you posted, that the word “jihad” can mean armed struggle against non-believers. You would have to be willfully ignorant to not know that even amongst Muslims, the word is often used in that context. In fact, westerners and non-Muslims, only know the word at all from it being used my Mullahs and Imams in calling the faithful to take arms against the non-believers. If there has been any corruption of the meaning of the word, it came from factions inside Islam, and not from the evil conservatives at Fox News who you erroneously assumed made this documentary.

I guess one could argue that the makers of the film would have been more accurate if they had entitled it “Muslims Against Jihad Bis Saif, but I don’t think that would be too realistic. Do you?

The point is, the word “jihad” is universally known to most commonly refer to the armed struggle by Muslims against non-believers and even if it wasn’t, it is one of the valid definitions of the word.

Again, this is in and of itself a straw man argument used time and time again by Islamic apologists to ignore uncomfortable truths about their religion. As Seekerof said earlier, Islam does have some strong and beautiful tenets, but unless the moderates can recapture the voice of Islam, it will remain incompatible with modernity.

I would suggest you take the time to watch the documentary with an open mind. If you then want to argue against the points it makes I, and I’m sure others, will be more than happy to amicably debate them with you.

As an aside, I will note that while I am a conservative I can understand why PBS would not have been happy with this film. I myself would have liked to see more of the moderate’s point of view on the struggle to live an Islamic life the way they see it, without having to acquiesce to the views of the more radical, almost fascist Muslims.

-Cypher

Originally posted by Souljah
Nope -

Well if you are not an expert then it is hardly your place to tell what is correct within the Muslims faith is it?

You are in the same boat as most of us so you can give your opinion, I/we can give ours. It just so happens in this case I happen too disagree with you because the female Muslims said and I think one of the (males) from Demark that was arrested stated a jihad had been declared because they were non-believers. Also contrary to your claim there are several types of jihad American heritage dictionary only says there are two

I believe the key to the usage here is (I am going from memory but I believe both stated) the jihad was declared because they were non believers which means they both used it in th same context.

Now I am sure many muslims sites have several versions but that would not surprise me at all because any cleric can make their own rules which is hardly a way to run a religion, all they have is mass confusion among themselves let alone try and get others to understand theirs.

Frankly I think the coverage given in the film was very realistic and believed what the moderates were saying about the radicals trying to keep them shut up was right on target and I am sure others will agree. I just wish there was someway I could demand it be shown because the RADICALS need to be exposed for what they are.



[edit on 6/26/2007 by shots]

Excellent find DJohn. Glad to see more information coming to the service. I hate when information gets supressed like this. I understand how journalism can appear one sided OFTEN, but I like to see both viewpoints and judge for myself. Radical Islamists are making a mockery of their religion.

this is clearly a propoganda video to make you scared of muslims.
DONT BUY INTO IT.
even the intro by that prappy woman was enough for me to know it was a disinformation scheme.If the big boys upstairs dont want you to see it.....you wont see it!!
nuff said

I'd just like to say thanks, to Soulja - I really liked the jihad information you posted. I'm going to do some more research, because I thought the content really made sense.

On the topic - look guys - they're called "radicals" for a reason. They take their beliefs, such as Jihad by the sword, and label it Jihad (which is radical...well gee their radicals aren't they!?) and then use that word to describe their fight against the western world and the west's beliefs.
I don't think anyone who posted in this thread is accusing all muslims of being radical! Hence the Moderate conotation in the video.

Christians have / had radicals, calthoics have / had radicals, jews (I mean they killed Jesus - how radical can you get!?) seriously though...I don't think for one second most intelligent people on this thread think that all muslims are by definition radical.

Is it true that when we here the word Jihad do we immediately think radical muslims? Well, yeah - but thats because radical muslims use that word to associates themselves. It's only natural when someone who isn't a radical muslim (or knows otherwise) to assume when you hear the word Jihad, to instantly think of radical muslims.

But thanks again for the clairification Soulja.

Peace -

zeeon

And this is how the few control many.By intimidation,threats.Cut off a couple of heads and people will back off and get real silent.Islam in it's true form is more of a cult than a religion.It says when to pray,what to wear,it's the law,it's the state.What is a cult?
A cult is a religious group with extreme beliefs and practices - beliefs that are often contrary to science and logic but they are believed as "obvious" truth by the cult members.
Use manipulative methods to control the minds of followers
People are not allowed to criticize the leader, the doctrine, or the organization, or read information that is critical of the cult.
Members are taught to suppress anything which might reflect negatively to outsiders about the cult.
There are those who say other religions are "just as bad" are they really?
I haven't seen Buddhists flying planes into buildings.I haven't seen Christians beheading people in the name of Christ. Islam is spinning out of control.The Muslims MUST get this under control before it's too late.

So the inquisitions (roman, spanish, medieval) weren't beheading and killing those who were non believers?

The crusades wasn't a war waged on all non-christians that was sanctioned by the pope himself!?

The salem witch trials wasn't christian extreemists?

I think you need to do some more research before you go spouting off ignorance my friend. This website is about deyning ignorance - not spreading it.

I really hate it when people go around claiming thier religion is oh-so-perfect while condeming all others. It's that kind of thinking that LED to the above mentioned conflicts!

Open your eyes and do some research on liberal islam before you go bashing on all muslims.

[edit on 26-6-2007 by zeeon]

Originally posted by shots
So are you an expert on Islam" You sure seem to make it sound that way.

i wouldnt call him an expert but he has shown he knows more about my faith then you and most others do

Jihad= Inner struggle, ones way to fight tempations and better them selves

in short

I agree that Moderate Muslims really need to gain control of Islam.

I fully believe most Muslims are non-violent.

Problem is, the radicals who call themselves Muslim are gaining a lot of control around the world. look at Iran, probably Iraq in the future, Syria, Gaze, factions in Lebanon. several areas in South America, several areas in Africa.

What will happen if radical Muslims continue to expand their war on the west? The west will eventually have no choice but to respond and pound these people into the ground. Since these radical Muslims hide themselfs among innocent, less radical Muslims, who is going to suffer the most when the S#*t finally hits the fan?

Innocent, peace loving moderate Muslims.

If moderate Muslims don’t want to be on the receiving end of the west retaliation, it would be to their advantage to help the west root out and eradicate the radicals.

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
I agree that Moderate Muslims really need to gain control of Islam.

what do you mean control?
go up to a extremist and say please sir dont say your muslim

Islam = faith
we use it as a guide

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
I fully believe most Muslims are non-violent.

nice to see you dont streotype

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
Problem is, the radicals who call themselves Muslim are gaining a lot of control around the world. look at Iran, probably Iraq in the future, Syria, Gaze, factions in Lebanon. several areas in South America, several areas in Africa.

what control do they have of the world?
which countries have they physicaly invaded, i can name two countries which are none muslim which do exactly what you just typed above

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
What will happen if radical Muslims continue to expand their war on the west? The west will eventually have no choice but to respond and pound these people into the ground. Since these radical Muslims hide themselfs among innocent, less radical Muslims, who is going to suffer the most when the S#*t finally hits the fan?

hasnt it already?
the west arms and trains the radical groups for their agenda and fudge happens

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
Innocent, peace loving moderate Muslims.

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
If moderate Muslims don’t want to be on the receiving end of the west retaliation, it would be to their advantage to help the west root out and eradicate the radicals.

very hard when every day the US creates new radicals by destroying homes, Iraq and afganistan

very hard when the US turns a blind eye to israel when it demolishes thousends of homes and kills cuvilians


so i have an idea on this stop killing innacent muslims, that would stop their friends, family or anyone close to them from wanting revenge and turning to extremisium

be more neutral when it comes to israel and not adovocate its actions on innacent people. each time israel kills a innacent child, woman and man
they have created a terrorist that wants revenge on israel and the US

stop shacking up with the curropt arab leaders

stop arming them with toys


so again how can you root out fanatics when your people keep on sewing new ones in their place in greater numbers?



[edit on 26-6-2007 by bodrul]

Ok, I watched 50 minutes of the video, and I have to say that it was pretty well put together. I'll also say that it is good that moderate Muslims are starting to speak out against those who would destroy freedom. I honestly think that the only way to avert a bunch of innocent people from dying in the Middle East is if the moderates stand up and start to fight the more radical factions of Islam. If that doesn't happen, sad as it is, there are going to be many,many millions of innocent deaths over there, and the total obliteration of the Middle East region.

Now, with that being said, I have to address certain things that some people have said on this thread.

originally posted by SouljahIt is pretty clear, that people of Fox have no idea about Islamic religion, if they produce documentaries with titles like this one. And I bet, that none of the so-called Journalists which work on that so-called News Network, did not read, what exactly JIHAD means to a Muslim.

Firstly, you haven't watched the film. Fox had nothing to do with this programming besides doing what PBS so conveniently failed to do, air it.

originally posted by Souljah

But as far as I have gone, I noticed that the video was designed in a certain way, to portray the word JIHAD as bad, when actually it is a religious process of EVER single Muslim - and not an armed assault on western civilization.

Really? You know, I keep hearing people claim that the Jihad is supposed to mean a "spiritual war," yet, I have not one time ever heard a Muslim put it in that context. NEVER!! It has always been a bout a physical war with those who do not agree with the Islamic ideology.

I am really tired of this merri-go round reasoning that people have. Obviously, for someone who hasn't bothered to watch the video, you souljah, seem to think you know a whole lot about it, when obviously you haven't even bothered to view it.

Ok, onwards and forwards. Like one of the Clerics in the video stated, the fuel that most of the radicals use is the desire to return the world to the status it was in the 7th century. Osama bin Laden, and the like, want the world to return the world to the days when Islam was "supreme." I hate to say it, for those of you who would like to see it happen, and I know some of you are here, it'll never happen. Those days are dead and gone, finished.





[edit on 26-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Cypher
The truth is, you obviously know, since it was even included in the definition of jihad that you posted, that the word “jihad” can mean armed struggle against non-believers. You would have to be willfully ignorant to not know that even amongst Muslims, the word is often used in that context. In fact, westerners and non-Muslims, only know the word at all from it being used my Mullahs and Imams in calling the faithful to take arms against the non-believers. If there has been any corruption of the meaning of the word, it came from factions inside Islam, and not from the evil conservatives at Fox News who you erroneously assumed made this documentary.

While I fail to see your argument here, I am still wondering if anybody reads my posts at all - especially my first post here, which has to do with several types of STRUGGLE - I mean Jihad. Sadly the an averege non-Muslim (like yourself) can not understand the very meaning of this word, but can learn the meaning being presented to him/her via mainstream corporate media or via television entertainment or movies and at the last point BOOKS. Here is my first question: how many books did you read about Islam? My second question: did you get all your information about Islam from documentaries such as this or certain internet sites called Jihadwatch? Have you even read the several meanings of Jihad - I mean STRUGGLE? Did you find yourself, trying to make a living in your everyday life in one of those definitions? Did you not try, at least once in your lifetime, to struggle of good against evil in the mind? Sadly the interpretation of Jihad is widely used and known only as a full frontal assault on non-Muslims - yet I think that this documentary does not mention that there are several types of Jihad - the STRUGGLE - just ignores that fact and moves on.

I guess one could argue that the makers of the film would have been more accurate if they had entitled it “Muslims Against Jihad Bis Saif, but I don’t think that would be too realistic.

No - the makers of this movies could just call it, as I have called it before: RADICAL AGAINST MODERATE MUSLIMS. And knowing, that there are at least a billion of Muslims living on this planet, I think that there is possibly 1% of those, who are using Jihad by the sword.

The point is, the word “jihad” is universally known to most commonly refer to the armed struggle by Muslims against non-believers and even if it wasn’t, it is one of the valid definitions of the word.

Commonly known by a non-Muslim yes. But it is NOT a valid definition of that word, as I have stated numerous times in this thread. Each and every day EVERYBODY living on this planet is involved in a STRUGGLE of many kinds. Are you trying to say, that you are not? Damn! - then you must be one happy individual, without any problems! And I have to say, I kind of envy you!

Again, this is in and of itself a straw man argument used time and time again by Islamic apologists to ignore uncomfortable truths about their religion. As Seekerof said earlier, Islam does have some strong and beautiful tenets, but unless the moderates can recapture the voice of Islam, it will remain incompatible with modernity.

I am neither a Muslim nor am I an Islamic apologist. I am only an individual, who keep an open mind and tries to see through the vast net of lies and deceptions, being served to all of us by corporate mainstream media, which claim that they are liberal or conservative in their viewpoint - but at last, they just turn out to be one head of the same dragon.

As an aside, I will note that while I am a conservative I can understand why PBS would not have been happy with this film. I myself would have liked to see more of the moderate’s point of view on the struggle to live an Islamic life the way they see it, without having to acquiesce to the views of the more radical, almost fascist Muslims.

You and I can not possibly understand moderate or radical Muslims just by watching this documentary or by reading a few articles on the internet. Like the saying goes, we would have to walk in their shoes in order to fully understand the very meaning. Yet the question arises, what caused these Muslims to turn from moderate to radical? Are they just bored? Or were they kind of provoked into turning into Jihad with a sword? Last time I checked there is a F.U.B.A.R. situation in Iraq and Afganistan - not to mention Palestine or Lebanon. Peace in Middle East has become only an unreachable illusion, which has been forgotten in the endless circle of violence. Suddenly Muslims all over the world are being labeled as terrorists, just on the fact that they are part of Islamic religion. And you ask yourself, why is this creating a certain big amount of un-happy, angry Muslims? Well you should think again...

This has to be the biggest bunch of dribble I have ever read on this site.

We are now arguing over what "Jihad" means?

I feel that we have strayed from what this documentary is about, we could sit here all day argying the meaning and philosophy of Jihad, but that is of little imporatance. Whats accutually important, is a view held by many people that there are no moderate muslims, as well as the beliefs of the radical muslims. Although, yes manhy religions did go through very radical periods that is not all an excuse for these radical beliefs. Demanding that wherever they go must be a muslim society and that terrorism is a good way of achieving this, is a belief that is simply unacceptable. Praticing your religion is fine, but forcing it upon others, and murdering those that deny your beliefs, is not fine. They must learn that the values of a growing modern world, come before their radical values.

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
I feel that we have strayed from what this documentary is about, we could sit here all day argying the meaning and philosophy of Jihad, but that is of little imporatance. Whats accutually important, is a view held by many people that there are no moderate muslims, as well as the beliefs of the radical muslims.

True. That is all you hear, "Where are the moderates?" Well, when they do speak out, they get no air time. It's shameful really. I do have to applaud Fox for at least airing this documentary. You can bet your check that CNN or MSN wouldn't do it.

I mean, thsee radicals are doing nothing but breeding hate and misunderstanding towards their own great religion. During the middle ages, muslim nations and cities were not only powerful militarily, but were centers of science and learning, and these radicals are destroying the possibility of such nations existing any time soon, by exiling all muslims from the rest of the world. And this is not something that can be changed from the outside. It will have to be a joint effort between moderate muslims and the world community. I'm patriotic and love my country, but invading nations is never going to stop the Islamic Fanaticism, because bombs very seldom have the ability to destroy a belief.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

True. That is all you hear, "Where are the moderates?" Well, when they do speak out, they get no air time. It's shameful really. I do have to applaud Fox for at least airing this documentary. You can bet your check that CNN or MSN wouldn't do it.

I think you are right, but I would love to see the other version to compare the two. No matter how you look at it the one Fox did air I think was fair and un-biased even if one individual does not like Fox. This is one instance they did the right thing, if it were not for them we would not have even seen this. Why PBS censors would not want it shown just baffles me big time. What bunch of fools they are.

One can only assume they do not want the masses to know what the radicals are really doing too silence the moderates which is a shame.

Originally posted by shots
Why PBS censors would not want it shown just baffles me big time. What bunch of fools they are.

Oh, I can tell you exactly why it didn't. PBS didn't air it because it didn't talk about Islam in flowery, feel good, language. While it showed that there were some Muslims against radicalism, it also showed how distasteful some practitioners of radical Islam are. PBS probably wanted it to be one sided documentary, only talking about those Muslims that are against radical Islam.

[edit on 26-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

The title is ridiculous indeed. If they wanted to have it mean "Muslims against extremism," then they should have put it as such, but using the term, "Muslims against Jihad" is very misleading.

To a non-Muslim, they would view the video thinking that the moderate Muslims are the ones that are against Jihad, when in fact, moderates are the one who practice Jihad and fight extremism.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by shots
Why PBS censors would not want it shown just baffles me big time. What bunch of fools they are.

Oh, I can tell you exactly why it didn't. PBS didn't air it because it didn't talk about Islam in flowery, feel good, language. While it showed that there were some Muslims against radicalism, it also showed how distasteful some practitioners of radical Islam are. PBS probably wanted it to be one sided documentary, only talking about those Muslims that are against radical Islam.

[edit on 26-6-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

or the possiblity of an radical islamic outcry, similiar to that witnessed after the danish cartoon. I mean how can you hate that Danes, their chocolate is amazing.