Iran says Russia may not let U.S. use Azeri radar

Originally posted by sy.gunson
www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes, I'm very much aware of Iran's limited naval capabilities, brown water fleet mainly, which would be all they'd need if they faced an inferior opponent, such as...Egypt, or Ethiopia.

If these "plans" are public, what do you think the US intelligence know (not praising the US, but being realistic).
More than likely, precautions have been taken, and the Sunburn hasn't actually faced combat, and its of little use if the platform from where its launched gets hit first by a hail of tomahawks or anti-ship missiles.

Iran also stated it has stealth planes...turned out to be a wooden plane with no ordenance capability. That Iran likes to beat his chest beyond reality, doesn't make him the boogeyman.

Considering the compromises the US has taken to secure oil in middle east, I don't see any reason they aren't prepared for the Hormuz eventual blocking.

Satellite images are available to the public of most of Iran's naval assets, what makes you think the US is not tracking their every move?

Hmm I suppose NATO doesn't count ?

Considering the treatment US gave Nato disregarding their dislike for the invasion, you suppose right. Nato is not knee-deep in sand right now, the US is. Iran knows most certainly that blocking Hormuz, means the destruction of its military, and as much as they rattle the saber, I doubt they'll do it.

sure.... The Iranians themselves are the best source:

www.irandefence.net...

Nah, not really, Iran has lots of claims and little proof. And considering every airbase of them is within range of US assets range, I do wonder if having this shiny planes will help at all. (Particularly since most Iran defenses are meant against low altitude, and not high altitude bombing.)

Well you can dismiss the facts all you like but that doesn't make you correct.

In the Iran-Iraq war 546 ships mainly tankers were attacked and mainly by the Iranians. The US navy was pretty powerless to prevent it.

en.wikipedia.org... War_and_Direct_U.S._Support_for_Iraq

Brown water navy they may be but the Gulf is a brown water conflict zone. More ridiculous is steaming in there with a Blue water navy to suppress it.

I have responded and countered every opinion you advanced as fact. You asked for links and I provided them. Then you pooh poohed my evidence with opinion and still offer no real evidence in reply. You have also shifted the topic.

You claimed that Russia does not really sell weapons to Iran. In fact they do an lately Russia has exported the S-300 missile system through proxy deals with Syria and Byelorussia. I have not heard you respond to this ?

I said nothing to you about stealth planes, cardboard, or otherwise. However the irandefense.net link provided showed a Shafegh prototype aircraft inside a hanger. The wing leading edge is an exact match for the MIG-AT.

You demand proof from me to an extraordinary level, yet you expect me and others to accept your dismissal of facts based on your opinion with no proof.

To say that satellites will provide plenty of warning is quite unrealistic. It is not a situation of watching for a build up. Iran's "brown water navy" is very active all the time. The straits of Hormuz are very narrow and it takes less than an hour to launch a devastating attack on all commercial shipping there.

It takes time to task satellites and coverage is not continuous.

In that regards the one poster is correct, Iran does pose a threat to commercial shipping traffic operating in the Persian gulf and passing through the straights of Hormuz. While in any conflict the US will likely come out the "winner" that does not mean that Iran could not close/block the straights for a significant duration of time while also damaging countless soft targets such as oil tankers. In confined littoral areas such as the Gulf where Iran has a large coastline they can easily engage unarmed targets with their brown water navy, limited air force and coastal/inland missile systems.

Yall trying telling me if 1000 small watercraft hauled ass along a moderate navy towards an advanced fleet loaded with all kinds of high tech explosives and suicidal maniacs, that the US would not take one single casualty? That not a single ship will be lost, or severaly damaged to the point of obsoletion? If you are focusing all your guns on 1000 tiny suicidal watercraft, how are you going to completely destroy the semi-formidable navy coming at you simoltaniously and vice-versa? not to mention that there will be alot of action in the air at the same time?


Some people thnik the US is invicncible. It damn well is tough, but nowhere near invincible. I tell you just from reality, that any Naval engagement in that area will be extrmely messy. No doubt due to Us naval supremacy and air domnation, they will come out victorious, but not anywhere close to unscathed. Extreme losses will be suffered, on the water and in the air. Thats gonna put just a bit of a dent in our status quo, and who knows who else in the world may just decide to take an opportunity that has presented itself.

I'm beginning to wonder if the US will really attack Iran. Israel will probably be in confrontations with Hamas/Hezbollah by this summer...depending how large the circle gets and how hard the saber rattling against Iran is...who knows...

Israel will in fact do, what it has done best since the British gave them a free ride after WW2. Maybe they will inavde Gaza again, maybe they will just carpet bomb them like dresden. Maybe they will completely seal their border and force them to survive on what is left of the land until the population is reduced. Who knows. But one thing is for damn sure. US will not be atacking Iran, it makes no sense and there is truly no reason. And if the US isnt going to atack Iran, you can bet Israel wont be.

First, I heard someone say US has better toys then Russia? Russia, too has some great toys, I'd put my money on it that the two countries are pretty equal militarily.

Someone else said that Russia is feared because they are quick to nuke? When's the last time Russia nuked someone? The only country that's ever nuked was US. Fear the Russian military tactics-especially the Spetsnaz-they will cut off the enemy's "stuff" and then ask questions, that's why they are so feared. There was another thread earlier, about Russian diplomats killed in Iraq and everyone agreed that Russian tactics actually work very well. They are particularely good at scaring their opponent's leaders by doing gruesome work to those around them, and other things.

Next, Russia is angry about the missile shield in their "backyard" has nothing to do with Iran, at least this PARTICULAR case, how would US like a bunch of S400s in Cuba? A missile defense system located in Poland is a bad choice, as there are plenty of better (and closer) locations.

However, not to say, that its NOT in Russia's interests to defend Iran-Iran is our customer and we have several projects in Iran (such as the nuclear powerplant which we've helped them with) it is in our interest that this projects thrive. Me personally, I don't trust Iran, but its fair enough to say that they're not attacking anyone right now, and they are simply building nuclear energy, while everyone is screaming that they already got nukes lol, so anyway, while Iran isn't an angel, it hasn't built a single nuke, and its pretty clear that Bush is itching for war with them. I bet money that if there was no nuclear powerplant, Bush would've still found excuses, just like Iraq...matter of fact, its starting to look like another Iraq is on the way, except Iran is stronger, and somebody MIGHT be coming to their aid, but I don't know for sure. Really, I wish Russia wasn't mixed in all of this, but Iran has been our customer for some time, before all this bs occured, and I guess its only natural to stand up for a good customer. Maybe Putin sees something in this that I don't?

And then there was the recent news of military shipments intercepted to Al Quaida--for some reason it seems like a VERY big coincidence, but who knows? I'm not deciding on whether its a fake or not, because I wasn't there, didn't see what was going on, but if it is fake, then it clearly supports my statement that Bush is itching for war with Iraq.

I'm sure there are better alternatives in THIS case then war, however, we're gonna see, maybe Iran will do something crazy, then some of my opinions might change, who knows?

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Iran has also said Russia was selling top of the line equipment to them...when it really has not.

Iran said this just for public face...though the Russians will either offer no response to this, or deface them.

Russians are already pissed as it is with US placing Missile Defense next door under "Iran Nuke Risk" excuse already, Iran mouthing off will not make them any happier, I expect Russians issueing a polite stfu to Iran soon enough, or no comments.

Knowing Putin and the Russian goverment it will be a very amusing stfu to watch on the Russian news. Out of all the comments I've read here so far I agree with Ioseb the most. Neither Russia nor the US want a cold war all over again and I personally believe all this tention between them atm is simply the result of the Bush administration f*cking up relations with yet another country. 2008 - new president comes to office and possibly better relations will come. I think so for the following reasons; Russia is non less comfortable with a nuclear Iran then the US. Maybe even more so because it's closer geographicaly then the US. Russia will also definately not tolerate Iran telling it what to do or making threats to it like it does to the US, then on the other hand Iran would probably never even go there due to it's great trading relations with Russia. For Russia ending this "nuclear Iran" issue would also end the missile treaty that the US is trying to acomplish in Europe...well, maybe. And anyone who thinks that Russia, Iran, and China are all secretly passing notes to each other under the table about how to blow up the US is just paranoid. I hope you realize that all you're doing is taking all the countries in the world that the US does not see eye to eye with and throwing them into the same basket with a big "enemy" label on it.

Here is what none of you know though (and i'm probably gonna get critisized for not providing a link); I've talked with an Azeri friend of mine not so long ago (I've lived in Azerbaijan, Baku, for 2 and a half years) and he tells me that the people there are rather nervous about the next few years. He told me that most people there are almost certain that the US is going to go to war with Iran. The reason they believe this is because apparently the US is building 2 large airbases there. I forgot the names of the regions in which they're being built cause they're darn hard for me to pronounce but I'll try to find out asap. What I do know though is that those airbases are definately not for humanitarian/public use since pretty much hardly anyone lives in those regions and from what I'm being told those bases are pretty big - bombers or cargo planes maybe? The reason this worries the Azeris so much is because they know Iran will retaliate to anyone who aids the US should there be a war. Frankly after I was told this I was starting to get pretty convinced myself that there probably will be a war with Iran. Russia will not be against the US though and this is the proof right here. Russia threatened to aim missiles at Europe because of the missile shield which the US said was to protect from Iran. Clear BS. Here the US is building 2 large airbases right under Russia but Russia is completely quiet about it and they will be. They know this is purely against Iran. While Russia would not like to see military action in Iran from the side of the US (this would wreck a good financial source for them) they are geting rather annoyed with the whole thing and it even caused them problems (US using Iran as an excuse for the missile shield).

Regards,
Maestro

Originally posted by Russian soldier
Maybe Putin sees something in this that I don't?

I am sure all the world leaders see something in this that we don't.

Btw...I am the one who said that people don't get in wars with Russia because Russia would nuke them without concern for PR.

The atrocities in Chechnya, poisoning from radioactive substances, killing journalists, etc. without apology or real recognition by the government shows that Russia is unconcerned with PR and would probably do something nuts if they were involved in a large war. That is why people don't want to fight wars with Russia. The US would bomb them to a blivion, but will try as best as it can to avoid civilian casualties because the government is concerned with what the world thinks of us (though this administration seems to not care). So put your nationalistic "Ya Russia!" talk aside.

---Now you can say...Russia has stopped its imperialism for what...16 years now? That's because you guys were too poor and had so much chaos that you couldn't successfully rule over yourselves. Now that you guys are getting rich from oil (much like Middle Eastern countries), I wouldn't be surprised if one day your imperialism starts to creep back in. I'm not the only one who thinks so, but your neighbors (GUAM?) thinks so as well.


[edit on 19-6-2007 by RetinoidReceptor]

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor

The atrocities in Chechnya, poisoning from radioactive substances, killing journalists, etc. without apology or real recognition by the government shows that Russia is unconcerned with PR and would probably do something nuts if they were involved in a large war. That is why people don't want to fight wars with Russia. The US would bomb them to a blivion, but will try as best as it can to avoid civilian casualties because the government is concerned with what the world thinks of us (though this administration seems to not care). So put your nationalistic "Ya Russia!" talk aside.

---Now you can say...Russia has stopped its imperialism for what...16 years now? That's because you guys were too poor and had so much chaos that you couldn't successfully rule over yourselves. Now that you guys are getting rich from oil (much like Middle Eastern countries), I wouldn't be surprised if one day your imperialism starts to creep back in. I'm not the only one who thinks so, but your neighbors (GUAM?) thinks so as well.

Don't know how far I'm breaking this forum's rules...but at this moment I frankly don't care. RetinoidReceptor - go # yourself. You realy pissed me off with your comments. What you posted isn't a response with any logic or reason, it's a plane insult.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
The atrocities in Chechnya, poisoning from radioactive substances, killing journalists, etc. without apology or real recognition by the government shows that Russia is unconcerned with PR and would probably do something nuts if they were involved in a large war. That is why people don't want to fight wars with Russia.

I keep stating this over and over again but this time this is a direct question: what do you actually know of both the wars in chechnya and the violence that continues there now? Do you know how or why it started? Do you have the slightest idea of the atrocities commited by both side or do you just sit there reading western printed articles about it and praising them for the whole stinken deal. Just tell me off the top of your head, I don't wanna see any links, just tell me what you know right there. Because you actually have to know the story befor you point a finger don't you, you ignorant idiot.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
The US would bomb them to a blivion, but will try as best as it can to avoid civilian casualties because the government is concerned with what the world thinks of us (though this administration seems to not care). So put your nationalistic "Ya Russia!" talk aside.

---Now you can say...Russia has stopped its imperialism for what...16 years now? That's because you guys were too poor and had so much chaos that you couldn't successfully rule over yourselves. Now that you guys are getting rich from oil (much like Middle Eastern countries), I wouldn't be surprised if one day your imperialism starts to creep back in. I'm not the only one who thinks so, but your neighbors (GUAM?) thinks so as well.

Ye your goverment is so concerned with what he world thinks of them that they managed to shovel compost all over the US's name in these past two terms didn't they?

As for the second paragraph, I was about to flame this guy for his comments but I'm afraid I won't be able to do that without offending every other American on this site which I really don't want to do. It wouldn't be right to offend them over some ignorant idiotic comments of some asshole. I'm sure most people here would see it as that and that's enough for me.

Regards,
Maestro

Maestro I put you on ignore because I don't really have the need to debate with someone who calls me immature names because I am stating my opinion. Who's more ignorant, the one jumping up and down and calling people names or the person relaying their message in a collective way.

Hmmm

[edit on 19-6-2007 by RetinoidReceptor]

So, all in all, this was simply an observation made by Iran. This was in no way an extended offer of support from Russia to Iran. I think Iran was merely stating what Russia had previously told the US and EU.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
good for russia standing up and denying, could you imagine the US allowing russia to build a missile defence on Cuba?

I couldn't have said it better and I beleive JFK already delt with this issue, not in a "missle shield", but just the placement of Russian missles in Cuba.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by tyranny22]

Originally posted by Russian soldier
First, I heard someone say US has better toys then Russia? Russia, too has some great toys, I'd put my money on it that the two countries are pretty equal militarily.

I think the end of the Cold War and the assumption of "victory" by the U.S., along with the sales of Russian equipment years later has led many to beleive that Russia is not as strong as it once was. This is simply not true. Russia is to be feared as a SuperPower as much as the United States, Europe, or China. Anyone could decimate the world with the push of a button. I've always loved the old saying: To "assume" is to make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

RetinoidRecepter, Russia is not crazy and will not do crazy things during large wars, even for us there are rules and lines that we don't cross. You appear to have been brainwashed by coldwar era politics to the point where you think Russia is a psycho intent on destroying the world, which is not true. Then you said "stop with all the ya Russia talk", well me being a big Russian patriot, I'll have to say no to that, I will continue to talk about and support my country as much as I want. Also, neither US NOR Russia wants to kill civillians, but civillian deaths are almost inevitable during war, that is just war, and saying that US does its best to kill civillians while Russia does ITS BEST TO KILL civillians is ignorance to the highest degree imaginable Also, we weren't too poor to rule over ourselves, just it was time to start being a Democracy and give the people more power. And Putin has done a lot of good during his presidency. If you think Russia will turn back to imperialism, well you have the right to say your "opinions", but me and others will talk by the facts, not by opinions driven by apperent dislike of any country and its PATRIOTS.

Also, lol, you said US will bomb to oblivian, lol, how does that not kill innocents? Listen to what you say, you say the US won't because it cares about what the world thinks of it and then you say "though this current administration doesn't seem to", wtf? lol, you don't even have any idea about what you are talking about.

And yes, what do you know about the Chechnyan wars? Did you know that the majority of civillians supported us to fix that troubled spot, rather then the so-called savior rebells who contributed in destroying their own land and using the people they were supposedly "protecting" as human shields? And we did it successfuly-the war is over, and we didn't use any "totally nuts" tactics. You seem to have nothing to support your statements, I got history to support mine.

Originally posted by Russian soldier
Russia is not crazy and will not do crazy things during large wars, even for us there are rules and lines that we don't cross.

But do you believe there could be an alliance forming between Iran and Russia?

How do you feel about the economic ties between Russia, and Iran?

Do you think Russia will support Iran during possible U.S. led strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities?

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
But do you believe there could be an alliance forming between Iran and Russia?

Temporary economic and politic ties, sure, but only because both find it convenient and beneficial at the current moment.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
How do you feel about the economic ties between Russia, and Iran?

Personally I'm indifferent to it.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Do you think Russia will support Iran during possible U.S. led strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities?

Politically yes, military and in terms of physical and economic supplies, not a chance. Iran is not that important and the consequences of such action are far more serious than allowing a pawn to be attacked. You don't fight your chess opponent because he took one of your pawns, the game is far more important and complex than that...

Originally posted by Russian soldier
And Putin has done a lot of good during his presidency. If you think Russia will turn back to imperialism, well you have the right to say your "opinions", but me and others will talk by the facts, not by opinions driven by apperent dislike of any country and its PATRIOTS.

I am actually one of the only Americans that I know who actually likes Putin. I agree he has done a lot of good for Russia. The notion that Russia will return to imperialism...you are right it is my opinion and many others. The facts that are backing up your opinion is non-existant, because facts cannot tell the future.

Also, lol, you said US will bomb to oblivian, lol, how does that not kill innocents? Listen to what you say, you say the US won't because it cares about what the world thinks of it and then you say "though this current administration doesn't seem to", wtf? lol, you don't even have any idea about what you are talking about.

Why did you say I have no idea what I am talking about, that hurts my feelings . Anyway, the US does bomb countries into an oblivion but we wouldn't use poison gas on hostages in a theater to stop some of the terrorists

And we did it successfuly-the war is over, and we didn't use any "totally nuts" tactics.

Well you tortured, killed civilians, left the place in ruins? I don't really care what happened, but I always say...if the US did it, there would be a world outcry. If Russia did it though...well that's Russia.

You just said you don't care what happened in Chechnya.............well if you don't care, then you probably don't know much about what happened there, do you? My friend's friends served in the war, they know what's going on. And there is a lot of controversy about US crimes at war, too, keep that in mind. Higher command would never tell the soldiers to commit this kinds of stuff, so its basically up to the soldier whether to do right or wrong. Remember, a human is a human, whether in Russia or US, he can be good, or he can be bad, his nationality, religion, etc won't make him any different then what he is.

The theater siege is indeed a controversy, but the fact is the whole place was covered in bombs, and one wrong move and everyone would've been dead. If you want to talk crap about how the Russians handled that situation FIRST find a similar incident where Western SOF had the same situation and handled it better. To my knowledge, there isn't any situation similar to this one even a bit, who knows how Western forces would've handled it? It could've been far more disasterous. In the end, the terrorists got killed, and yes some civillians got killed, but welcome to real life-its not as clean as in the movies, life is unpredictable and dangerous.

Sorry about hurting your feelings, too, I didn't mean to. I was just questioning if you knew what you were talking about.


[edit on 20-6-2007 by Russian soldier]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

Originally posted by Russian soldier
Russia is not crazy and will not do crazy things during large wars, even for us there are rules and lines that we don't cross.

But do you believe there could be an alliance forming between Iran and Russia?

How do you feel about the economic ties between Russia, and Iran?

Do you think Russia will support Iran during possible U.S. led strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities?

I think Westpoint told it pretty well, though the middle one doesn't seem to concern him, so I'll state my opinion on the second question. Russia needs the export market to grow as a nation, and sales to India, Malaysia, Iran, Syria, Venezuela, and other countries has helped us grow. But it seems we're caught in a mess because of our partnership with Iran. A mess that seems to be devided into 2 sides. I don't think the bussiness with Iran was worth the trouble, but perhaps the trouble was unforseen, so I can't blame Putin. So, as I said, I don't think the bussiness was worth the trouble so I don't feel very good about the economic ties betwean Russia and Iran. But I could be wrong, this issue is very very complicated, I think the best thing to do is wait and see what happens next. I just hope Russia doesn't get involved militarily.

Originally posted by Russian soldier
I just hope Russia doesn't get involved militarily.

Russia definitely won't. For some reason, I think as China gets stronger and stronger, Russia will get closer and closer to the US and Europe. Just something I am thinking about. The West is raising a dragon with economic support and Russia is raising a dragon with military tech. The only difference is, China is on the border with Russia and has 1.3 billion people, and Western Europe and the US are thousands of miles away.

[edit on 20-6-2007 by RetinoidReceptor]