Just saw 'chemtrails' being made.

Neo, a motive is a completely different thing from proof.

There are plenty of reasons why it would be advantageous for me to be batman. Does this in any way make it more likely that I am in fact batman?

[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Kano]

Originally posted by THENEO
Howard,

I don't have time for this,

it is obvious what is going on here and you desire to drag this out hoping that people will give up,

now tell me what 3D radar is and how the signatures are generated and when and where it is used?

this is one purpose of spraying contrails over urban areas.

look it up Howard, I haven't time for you splitting of hairs and diversion tactics.

LOL!!!

You are the one trying to drag it out. You have steadfastly refused to answer any of my questions. You hint around about some nefarious purpose to chemtrails, yet you refuse to state what that is.

If you have a claim to make about radar and chemtrails, come out with it, I haven�t got the time either to deal with your puusyfoot B.S.

In the meantime, I will ask you one more time.

Why can�t contrails exhibit the same behavior as clouds?

I thought this may be of interest to some of you. And this was back in '90-91.

United States Patent 5,003,186--Stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming

One proposed solution to the problem of global warming involves the seeding of the atmosphere with metallic particles. One technique proposed to seed the metallic particles was to add the tiny particles to the fuel of jet airliners, so that the particles would be emitted from the jet engine exhaust while the airliner was at its cruising altitude................

Another class of materials having the desired property includes the oxides of metals. For example, aluminum oxide (Al.sub.2 O.sub.3) is one metal oxide suitable for the purpose and which is relatively inexpensive.........

It is presently believed that particle sizes in the ten to one hundred micron range would be suitable for the seeding purposes. Larger particles would tend to settle to the earth more quickly................

The greenhouse gases are typically in the earth's stratosphere at an altitude of seven to thirteen kilometers. This suggests that the particle seeding should be done at an altitude on the order of 10 kilometers. The particles may be seeded by dispersal from seeding aircraft; one exemplary technique may be via the jet fuel as suggested by prior work regarding the metallic particles. Once the tiny particles have been dispersed into the atmosphere, the particles may remain in suspension for up to one year........

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by THENEO
Howard,

I don't have time for this,

it is obvious what is going on here and you desire to drag this out hoping that people will give up,

now tell me what 3D radar is and how the signatures are generated and when and where it is used?

this is one purpose of spraying contrails over urban areas.

look it up Howard, I haven't time for you splitting of hairs and diversion tactics.

LOL!!!

You are the one trying to drag it out. You have steadfastly refused to answer any of my questions. You hint around about some nefarious purpose to chemtrails, yet you refuse to state what that is.

If you have a claim to make about radar and chemtrails, come out with it, I haven�t got the time either to deal with your puusyfoot B.S.

In the meantime, I will ask you one more time.

Why can�t contrails exhibit the same behavior as clouds?

Ok, I'm no expert this is what I have found that says that they "can". I am just answering a question that no one will... OK?

Contrails are ice clouds formed directly by anthropogenic injections (from aircraft) into the atmosphere. Recent field programs have shown that contrails sometimes persist, grow, and spread into extensive cloud systems covering areas over 50,000 km2 (Minnis et al., 1997). It is these long-lived contrails that can potentially influence the radiation budget of the planet and climate. To assess the impact of commercial aircraft on climate, we must understand how environmental conditions control the persistence and spreading of contrails.

www.nersc.gov...

Originally posted by Bangin
I thought this may be of interest to some of you. And this was back in '90-91.

. . . . . .

Just because there is a patent, doesn�t mean it was ever made or even that it works as claimed.

Do you have any idea what would happen if you were to run metal particles through a jet engine? I would imagine that that would seriously increase the maintenance of said engine.

And besides, al that metal floating around up there would be rather bad for ATC and weather radar systems, don�t you think?

Originally posted by NetStorm

Ok, I'm no expert this is what I have found that says that they "can". I am just answering a question that no one will... OK?

Contrails are ice clouds formed directly by anthropogenic injections (from aircraft) into the atmosphere. Recent field programs have shown that contrails sometimes persist, grow, and spread into extensive cloud systems covering areas over 50,000 km2 (Minnis et al., 1997). It is these long-lived contrails that can potentially influence the radiation budget of the planet and climate. To assess the impact of commercial aircraft on climate, we must understand how environmental conditions control the persistence and spreading of contrails.

www.nersc.gov...

Exactly. Persistent contrails are the result of our increasing reliance on air travel. They are not the result of a secret government program.

[quote Exactly. Persistent contrails are the result of our increasing reliance on air travel. They are not the result of a secret government program.


Well, I guess until someone who has the money, equipment and desire and collects a sample of whatever they are, we will never know if they are anything BUT moisture . I just think they are cool.

Originally posted by NetStorm
Recent field programs have shown that contrails sometimes persist, grow, and spread into extensive cloud systems.......

www.nersc.gov...

'recent' being the salient concept. re-cent. re-program. re-educate. re-write. re-ality.

Originally posted by billybob

Originally posted by NetStorm
Recent field programs have shown that contrails sometimes persist, grow, and spread into extensive cloud systems.......

www.nersc.gov...

'recent' being the salient concept. re-cent. re-program. re-educate. re-write. re-ality.

Re-read, re-alize, re-treat, rest

Interesting Find Bangin,

Howard, with the size of the metal particulate being so small, there is a good chance that there would be no interference with the engine internals. This patent is hard evidence that someone is doing more than thinking about the concept. I don't think you should dismiss it so quickly.

Kano,

your point is?


Howard,

I'll be blunt here for your ego gratification.
I am not an atmospheric scientist, nor an astronaut, not a meteorologist or...
but then again I doubt you are any of those things too.
I suggest if you have a hang up in regards chemicals and persistence that you do work in regards what is known in terms of crop dusting.

Like most people here I am not a scientist nor do I desire to become one. I am not here to EDUCATE you and I have no desire to. You can chase after the people that put up the now hundreds of chemtrail sites on the web if you like. I happen to know that some of those people are more than a match for your inquiries.

What I am talking about is what I have seen and seeing is believing.

But annother tactic here as this is getting stale Howard. You have admitted in annother thread that there is spraying going on thus, what is being sprayed by whom? As I have directed you twice now, do a search on 3d radar and see that it is a legit known outthere military program that has been funded researched and implemented for urban warfare etc., purposes. It involves spraying and producting a canopy over the desired area. The large and very obvious X's that were more frequently sprayed in the sky were markers used for the purposes of satellites to position for photo and imaging scans.

But again you will deny this because frankly you are playing everyone here. My question once again is this:
are you an agent? and why is management here backing you? Do you know them, do they know you? Did they send you here? What games are managment of this website playing other than those I already know about? Which are plenty btw.

Originally posted by dexxy
Interesting Find Bangin,

Howard, with the size of the metal particulate being so small, there is a good chance that there would be no interference with the engine internals. This patent is hard evidence that someone is doing more than thinking about the concept. I don't think you should dismiss it so quickly.

"This patent is hard evidence that someone is doing more than thinking about the concept"
First of all as I read it, that patent is exactly what you say it is not, it is a conceptual patent. That is some one thought up various ways that could be used to alleviate global warming and tried to cash in on possible future activities by claiming a prior patent. I see little evidence in that patent that it exists anywhere but in some ones head.

Now back to the practical side of the issue.

Since aluminum oxide, or alumna, is commonly sold as a grit blasting abrasive, I suspect that even if the partiles were very small, there would still be some erosion of the interior engine surfaces. If nothing elese, they would be very shiny.

Now lets think about this for a second. How do you add this material to the engine? As part of the fuel? Think of all the implications of that. First of all the material would have to be in some form of an emulsion so that the metal particles would not settle out of the fuel and sludge up the bottom of the fuel tanks. The mixture would have to pass through what ever filter and pumping system in use in the airplane at all of the normal operating temperature ranges (from 100 F to �70 F).

At what point would the material be added to the fuel? At the refinery? At the pipeline? At the terminal? At the airport fuel distributor?

Since each one of these groups handling the fuel has to maintain fairly strict quality control over the fuel, (think about it, if a plane crashed because of bad fuel, who get sued?) At whatever point the metals are added to the mixture, someone has to know what is going on. Multiply that by the number of airports around the country that service large commercial planes, and there are a lot of people that have to be in on this little game.

Then lets consider the mechanics that service the planes. Won�t they notice something weird with the fuel and fuel handling systems?

Furthermore if you add this mixture to the fuel, it will obviously change the performance of the fuel. The airplane mileage per pound of fuel will change. Won�t some one in the front office notice this? Consider that you are now dragging a lot of extra weight around with you in the sky. Weight that is not a paying passenger, that equals lost profits. Maybe that is why the airline industry is so hard up? They are too stupid to notice that their operating costs have gone up due to the new fuel "mixture."

The mixture will also change the various operating parameters of the engine so that you will have to re "tune" the engine to get optimum performance out of the new fuel mixture. The mechanics that service the engine would have to be trained to the new performance specs.

Wow, all of the sudden there are an awful lot of people in on this conspiracy.

Nah, I think not. Nice try though.

Howard,

I just read your last post addressed to dexxy.

You know I am more and more convinced by every additional post that I read of yours that you are in fact a disinfo agent. Why management likes you and backs you I am not sure but it is so obvious to me that I could scream.

the questions you raise are the reason etre' of a conspiracy website man! We don't know how everything is done, they won't tell us! I got a feeling that even if we politely ask them then they still won't tell us, and according to material I have seen on the web and testimony by people here already they have no intention of telling us how it is done, chemtrails that is.

But that is not the problem actually, the problem is that you cannot fathom in your wildest dreams that A: it could be done, B: that it is being done.

That is where you fail Howard.

Not that its impossible, but I really dont think theres anything to the contrails thing...its a common naturally occurring phenomenon, the military have actively been
aware of contrails since WW2 (yes reciprocating engines
make them too) and if they had anything to hide do you really think they would be giving themselves away with contrails?

and the metal particles?...I worked maintenance in the USAF...you got a better chance of riding shotgun with Santa than running metal particles through their engines..IMHO

Originally posted by THENEO
. . . You have admitted in annother thread that there is spraying going on thus, what is being sprayed by whom?

?????

where did I do that????

As I have directed you twice now, do a search on 3d radar and see that it is a legit known outthere military program that has been funded researched and implemented for urban warfare etc., purposes. It involves spraying and producting a canopy over the desired area.

What type of canopy, what is the specific purposes of this program. Please provide back up for any of your claims


The large and very obvious X's that were more frequently sprayed in the sky were markers used for the purposes of satellites to position for photo and imaging scans.




Of course air routes never cross, so that they should never make an X. and of course, they shouldn�t be parallel either, so there should never be any "grid" patterns. It is a wonder that anyone aver gets anywhere by air. And it is good also that they have this wonderfull back up systems of giant Xs incase their GPS systems ever fail.

But again you will deny this because frankly you are playing everyone here.

Playing what? OK, I admit it I like to tease you, Neo.

My question once again is this:
are you an agent? and why is management here backing you?

They are backing me?

Do you know them, do they know you? Did they send you here? What games are managment of this website playing other than those I already know about? Which are plenty btw.

Nope, Nope, I don�t know, what games are you playing?

BTW, have you complained to the moderators about me yet? I hope that you have. I consider it a badge of honor to have been complained about by you. How many people have earned this distinction?

Howard,

go to the other thread started by Bangin' you will see your comment there both replied to by myself and BillyBob on about page 11. You did admit to spraying in a moment of weakness. But we both know that you know about it and we both know why you fight it.

So let us not waste time any more Howard.

Tell me about 3d radar because I want to know if you are capable of recognizing a legit mil operation which resembles what we are arguing about. Are you able Howard, yes or no?

Airways certainly DO cross...aircraft flying on mag headings of 0 degrees to 179 degrees fly on altitudes of
ODD thousands plus 500 ft ie., 1,500 ft MSL aircraft on headings of 180-359 fly altitudes of even thousands plus 500 ft ie., 2,500 ft MSL
and to further separate the traffic those above rules apply to VFR (visual flight rules) aircraft, those on IFR (instrument flight rules) fly the same even-odd system respectively but without the added 500' interval

and with the GPS constellation they can put thousands of pounds of high explosives in your mailbox from the stratosphere...do you really think they need to paint a X marks the spot in the sky to locate a city sized canopy???.......IMHO

[Edited on 11-1-2004 by cyberpilot]

Originally posted by THENEO
Howard,

I just read your last post addressed to dexxy.

You know I am more and more convinced by every additional post that I read of yours that you are in fact a disinfo agent. Why management likes you and backs you I am not sure but it is so obvious to me that I could scream.

the questions you raise are the reason etre' of a conspiracy website man! We don't know how everything is done, they won't tell us!

Then use your head and try to figure it out using logic instead of coming up with a bunch of half-assed theories that are totally impractical and idiotic. I never said that you can�t believe in conspiracy theories, but if you do, then they had better be able to withstand some simple tests of science, logic and practicality, otherwise you just wind up looking like a fool.

I got a feeling that even if we politely ask them then they still won't tell us, and according to material I have seen on the web and testimony by people here already they have no intention of telling us how it is done, chemtrails that is.

But that is not the problem actually, the problem is that you cannot fathom in your wildest dreams that A: it could be done, B: that it is being done.

That is where you fail Howard.

Well

1. Well, hell, you can say that anything "could" be done. I just have a standard of skepticism when it comes to believing in things that "could" be done. I, for instance, would like to se an actual spray mechanism up close and in detail. I would like to actually see that dragon in your garage.
   
   
2. there is a giant leap between "could" and "is." You have so far failed to provide a single piece of hard evidence to support your theories. Chemtrails to you are a article of faith. They are part of your belief system that is based not on facts, but rather your perception of the world around you. I do know that this is a conspiracy web site. That does not compel me to accept as true every hare brained theory out there, does it?

Originally posted by THENEO
Howard,

go to the other thread started by Bangin' you will see your comment there both replied to by myself and BillyBob on about page 11. You did admit to spraying in a moment of weakness. But we both know that you know about it and we both know why you fight it.

Nope, I went there and I could not find anything of the sort.

I did state, That anything is possible but that there is a huge gap between the possible and the actual.

It is possible that I have a dragon in my garage. But whether he really exists or not is another issue.

So let us not waste time any more Howard.

Tell me about 3d radar because I want to know if you are capable of recognizing a legit mil operation which resembles what we are arguing about. Are you able Howard, yes or no?

You are the one wasting time. I am not going to play games with you. If you have a claim to make then spit it out. If you have information on an actual military project, then by all means present it.


[Edited on 11-1-2004 by HowardRoark]

Howard,

you exasperate me.

you did admit to the spraying and now I HAVE to waste my time to prove it to you. I hate this pettiness!

You still ignore the 3D radar why?

In regards your atmospheric ramblings, you still don't get it Howard do you?

I don't want to be an expert on this, plain and simple. I want an explaination for what I have seen which is a recent and recurring and unexplainable activity. Like I have said to you before on numerous occasions here, if you want to act like Howard Phd then bother those people. Better still do that and post your questions and their responses here for the rest of us to see.

You will not do any of the above because again your desire is not to actively learn about Chemtrails or Contrails or even discuss conspiracy related subjects (btw is there any that you believe in or even acknowledge?), but to confuse and misdirect the efforts of people here so that you can confuse people like this other poster to this thread right now that has vacillated from 'I don't believe one minute to I might' the next, depending on the comments made by each of us. We both know the role of the skeptic and agent Howard and you proved to yourself and everyone else here the power of said people.

Anyways, on to some meat here, I am still interested in 3D radar and I want you now to humour me and do some research on it and post it here, for your education Howard, not mine. I know about it already and since I am not a PhD from MIT and working for Los Alamos I would not have credibility with you anyways even if I remembered it all from the top of my head. But that does not matter, for it is out there and you should find it and then tell us what is there.

Do it Howard and prove your credibility and reassure us that you are not a spook then. Show the rest of the people at ATS that you are:

A: actually interested in conspiracy rather than just debunking all of it.

B. capable of having a discussion on a topic with someone

C. capable of taking a rational approach to a subject eg. not requiring the other person to be a world class expert on the subject while you on the other hand do not reveal your own qualifications

D. indicate that you have an open and inquiring mind and that you are capable of learning something new and even believe and understanding something new.

thanks Howard.