Bush: Iraqi, Afghan Wars "Our Destiny"

It's been a while since we visited this subject. Now that some time has passed, I'm wondering what you all think NOW. We've recently seen a split between Hamas and Fatah, and things in Iraq have changed only slightly. Mr. Bush remains firm in his convictions, and nowwe've recently learned that suicide bombers may be on their way to the U.S. What are your thoughts?

(donning flameproof underwear)...

That maybe, just maybe, he's right? Who else is going to step up? Russia? Germany? France? Pardon me while I gag... They had their oppourtunity, and screwed it up. We've made more than our fair share of screw ups in this fight, but the fights still on...

Having said that, I've said that I've got problems with the way the War on Terror is being fought, and I do. Not the fight itself...

Radical Islam is a danger, as is any form of radicalism. Some might be a lot more dangerous than others, though.


My thoughts are that maybe, just maybe, this is the fight that our country has been preparing for for the last 200 odd years? I know it doesn't seem likely, but the fights here, and here we are as a country, with no one else able to do it without our help. We're not alone in this fight, true, but the lions share of it, and the blame will be ours to win or lose. It's time we dicided which is it going to be.



[edit on 19-6-2007 by seagull]

Here goes something unpecidented in history:

How about...

NO HEGEMONIC EMPIRES DOMINATING THE WORLD!?

I know it's unfathomable, but hey at least I tried.

If "we" actually were the "benevolent empire" as they say, and only did the good things that we all hear about, but didn't do the evil genocidal things that we usually don't, this really could be a good world. It's too bad everyones too busy patting themselves on the back for the goods things while ignoring the bad and chastizing those who dare point out the hypocrisy.

Originally posted by seagull
Radical Islam is a danger, as is any form of radicalism. Some might be a lot more dangerous than others, though.

The problem isn't them, it's US being OVER THERE. Radical Islam is the product of American Imperialism, both by US pissing them off in general, but also by design as the movement was engineered by the CIA back in the late 70's early 80's. It's the perfect excuse for ongoing imperial operations masquerading as a noble cause.

Also from it's hegemonic pursuit, the Cold War is back in business, which means even if they settle down over there (somehow) there's always te RUssian threat to require massive spending like in the Cold War days. The Cold War was a sham designed and exploited by both the USSR and the USSA to justify imperial domination and permanent military economies. Each side used virtually the same farmongering propaganda on their populations to justify their evl deeds.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

There is nothing benovelent about any empire....certainly not ours, in fact ours may very well be one of the worst if only because the stark contrast between our rhetoric and the reality.

Originally posted by grover
certainly not ours, in fact ours may very well be one of the worst if only because the stark contrast between our rhetoric and the reality.

Usually we agree on many points, but this time...

Take the Roman empire, they used very similar propaganda (inventing enemies, inventing allies, Roman National security has been threatened, etc) The contrast between what an empire says and what an empire does is an old ploy designed to lead the people into whatever conflict leaders so choose.

However, i do agree the US empire is a vicous one, mainly because of the military techonolgy it employes.

I figured that'd get a response....

Radical Islam has been around for a lot longer than the US has been in the Middle East, but I do understand the point you are making. I don't neccessarily agree with it, but I do understand it.

I don't advocate a global empire with the United States at its head. This fight against global terrorism must be fought, and like it or not, the United States is the one country that can and should fight it. Not just with military force, but with ideas as well.

I, too, have a problem with our rhetoric as a nation not jibing with our actions. To win this fight, that must change, and change soon. When our rhetoric matches our actions, or more preferably, actions match rhetoric the fight will go our way. It's not too late for this...

A global empire would create many more problems than it would solve. I advocate one man/woman, one vote. Republican democracy in whatever shade a country prefers.

Revolution by ballot box is the ideal we must shoot for. A democratically elected gov't. in all countries would be the best way to end this seemingly endless war.



[edit on 19-6-2007 by seagull]

Originally posted by seagull
Revolution by ballot box is the ideal we must shoot for. A democratically elected gov't. in all countries would be the best way to end this seemingly endless war.

Who decides what is democratic or unjust? The US has a strong history of setting up showcase democracies. Ones with massive voilations of civil rights including mass arrests, political assassinations, and purging or exiling of dissedents.

What if one democratic government is against anothers political ideology? For instance, a Marxist Lennist government vs. a Fascist or Captialist government. Two governments opposed to eachother throughout history.

What if a terrorist organization (by international standards) is voted into power by the people?

I think democracy is a wonderful thing, but there are a number of situations that arise when trying to equalized the playing field.

Post Script: I understand the stance you are taking, and would love to see this world set on the right path.

Originally posted by seagull
Radical Islam has been around for a lot longer than the US has been in the Middle East,

How long? The US has been in the M.E. since the end of WW1. The Zionists have been conducting terrorism in Israel since at least the 1940's.
link

The Ottoman Empire is the argument I typically hear 'Conservative's' mention at this point. That's fine, but actualy "Radical Christianity" has been around for far longer, and I do believe millions have died just the same, but not even from actual wars.

It's about what causes "Terrorists". To understand this you must understand what a "terrorist" is:
Notable "Terrorist Insurgents" in American Popular Culture
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, except for when it's governments conducting the terrorism, and in that case no other could rival the U.S. Imperial Establishments title of being the 'greatest' supporter of international terrorism the world has ever seen.

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by grover
certainly not ours, in fact ours may very well be one of the worst if only because the stark contrast between our rhetoric and the reality.

Usually we agree on many points, but this time...

Take the Roman empire, they used very similar propaganda (inventing enemies, inventing allies, Roman National security has been threatened, etc) The contrast between what an empire says and what an empire does is an old ploy designed to lead the people into whatever conflict leaders so choose.

However, i do agree the US empire is a vicous one, mainly because of the military techonolgy it employes.

The big difference though and what makes our rhetoric worst is that we go around calling ourselves the land of the free, proclaim our respect for human rights and yada yada yada. If we shut us and acted like a self interested, what the pebs think empire, it would be more honest.

If the gov't. is freely elected with elections free and unencumbered, than that's how it should be...do you think I'd have a problem with that? If I'm on the losing side of an election, that just means I need to find a better candidate the next time...

I'm not a big fan of the US involving itself in the internal politics of elections in other countries, any more than I'm a fan of it when outsiders try it here. Their business, not ours...Our business, not theirs.

Radical Islam has been around for about as long as Islam itself. Seriously, you've almost as many sects of Islam as you do members of Islam...ok, a bit over the top there, but you see the point I'm making, I hope? Am I saying its all radical? No, not even remotely, and you'll never hear me say it either. I may say the moderates in Islam need to be a lot more vocal than they seem to be, but that's as far as I'll take it.

Radical Islam is no more the creation of the United States and its mistakes, than Radical Christianity is...contrary to what members of radical Islam would have us believe. I'll grant you, our heavy-handedness hasn't helped curtail it any, but it didn't create it either.

We, as in the United States, and the West in general, all come in for our fair share of the blame for what's happening in, and to, the world today, but it's hardly one sided.